Wreno

Like Kitori, I am having some issues with this thread, but I will try again (though I may be wasting my electrons here).

There are still numerous problems using any of your proposed systems in combat.

First, you are proposing out-of period vessels. Try using a Gato or an I400.
Second, you are proposing out of scale vessels (1/50 is not 1/144, or even 1/72 - I know of no 1/50 clubs).
Third, your missile system, if it performed as you propose, would be violative of the rules governing penetration and projectile velocity.
Fourth, you missile system violates the not-above-horizontal firing rules.
Fifth, your cannister shot torps would be violative of many club's rules, plus, as I ask again, how are you going to do this in a 1/4" diameter torp?

You are making lots of presumptions that have no relation n the real worls of RC Model Warship Combat. If you want to compete in the arena, you need to find out what the constraints are, and design to those constraints.

Leaving aside the above, your thought that the BB's at 500ft/sec would slice through a battleships deck and hull like a hot knife through butter is a misconception. Even the thinnest and weakest portion of most decks is 1/8" aircraft quality plywood (often fiberglass or even polycarbonate), and most of the deck has deckhouses or other superstructure above it which would absorb or bounce the projectiles harmlessly and no points to you. Even if, by some miracle you penetrated the deck, there is a lot of hardware inside a ship, and the bottom of the hull is frequently reinforced fiberglass (I have seen some deck bottoms up to 1/4" thick or more). It would also be patently unsafe and would probably negate our insurance. Again, you are showing your lack of understanding of the hobby.

Once again, I STRONGLY suggest you make it to a couple of meetings or battles to see what you are up against and how you can fit in if you want to play in the Model Warship Combat arena.

Cheers,

Wreno

kotori

Well that's easy. You don't seal the door, you seal the torpedo. The tolerances between different sizes of thin-wall brass tube (available at most hobby stores) are tight enough that if you grease the torpedo, it will hold out water. It's the same stuff that we make prop shafts out of, just different diameters. Then you can either completely skip the door, or at least not worry about sealing it. that's most likely what the guy in the video did.

And, as Wreno said, attending a battle or two would be a very good idea as well.

subcaptian

Well, how can I attend a battle in Alaska and im not even 18?

subcaptian

I know! I'll talk to some of the boaters up here and start my own combat club without the normal rules. there would be 2 divisions- WW-2 era and and WW-3 era without battleships.
the problem is Im not that old and would have a hard time rallying people to mkae combat ships and join.

Wreno

Actually, there is a combat group recently formed (or still forming?) in Alaska, with two or more ships that should be close to complete for this summer. I am sure they would like more ships/captains to join the fray. This is not the primary venue for battlers, which is probably why you are unaware. They are not listed on the RCNavalCombat clubfinder yet.

Starting your own combat club is not a bad idea, if you are in a remote location, but you need to do a little more research on what it entails. If you are expecting guys to build $1,500+ warships so that you can effectively shoot them with a shotgun, I think you will find few takers.

Also, remember the first rule is Safety. Because, if this is not your first rule, Liability will reach up and slap the @$#@$@ out of you and your family. If you are under age, you really need parental involvement. My son started when he was about 13, and it is what got me hooked.

Our club has been through 10 years of battling as of this April (many clubs have been around longer) without a single battle injury that I am aware of, and we aim to keep it that way. Perhaps you can see why, to those of us who actually do this stuff, why your speculations raised some hackles.

Good luck,

Wreno

subcaptian

Where is it? I am located on the peninsula, and if it is in Anchorage, I can attend very little unless it is a scheduled thing. please more info on that club.

Wreno

Not sure. If you will check out the BigGunModelWarship group archives over on Yahoo.com, you can get contact info, though.

Cheers,

Wreno

superman4213

I have a a submarine kit by robbe....its a robbe u47 and I was wondering if i could use it in rc warship combat...is it to big...would it be allowed?

Wreno

I believe the Robbe U47 is 1/40 scale, I believe. That is hugely too large (out of spec) for 1/144, 1/96, or even 1/72 combat clubs (1/144 being the most common/numerous). So, the answer seems to be no. Sorry.

Doo keep in mind that under most club's rules, you would need to cut holes in the hull and skin with balsa to make it sinkable. There are tons of technical issues with fighting a sub in combat remotely. Even if you can resolve them, there is still the underlying operational issue - If your enemy cannot see your sub, neither can you. This kind of removes som e of the sub's "advantage."

Cheers,

Wreno

superman4213

thanks for the help wreno...I have been looking into rc combat for some time and would really like to do a sub model since i am pretty familiar with them and their construction etc...would this model be allowed? http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXAAC8

and I have a couple more questions...for this model would i be allowed 1 unit.....does it have to meet a certain weight requirement to participate in an combat event? and finally for cutting holes in the side of the model how long and tall do the windows have to be?
thanks for your help its much appreciated

Wreno

If you can find a 1/96 club that allows subs. I don't know for sure of any that do.

My first suggestion is to read the Servo magazine articl on the ntxbg.org web site (in the "In the News" section) to get an idea of the types of clubs out there, then to go to the RCNavalcombat.com web site club finder to find the closest club of the style, format, scale you are interested in. Then contact the club for more information on getting started. Better yet, attend some meetings, build sessions, and battles if at all possible.

Some clubs have club ships that can be used to help you get your feet wet. Most can give you advice on how-tos, etc.

In general, submarines are not a good place to start. Period. The size ad weight restrictions make this, at best, an Expert build, and most are not terribly combat effective.

Do know that different formats have different considerations. For instance, Big Gun ships do not classify ships according to a "ship list" with "units" like the Small/Fast Gun clubs do. Big Gun clubs just look at a given reference book (like Conways) for the specifications and go from there. I believe Treaty uses ship lists, though. What is a beginner ship in Small Fast Gun is often an advanced ship in Big Gun and vice versa. Your local club can provide a tone more information in 5 minutes of discussion that I could gibe you in reams of email.

As to your specific questions about that model, again, it would depend on the 1/96 club's rules, if it is allowed at all. I am not terribly conversant with the 1/96 club standards, so I just do not know. Perhaps a 1/96 guy can answer.

Cheers,

Wreno

Graft Zeppelin

If I may make a sagestion. in my club we have one guy who built a 1/144 co2 powered torpedo, we say ok try it. excelent in theory but in excecution, the torpedo lached out of the water and we then had to div efor cover. another fellow not to be out done disasembled a small caliber gun and use it for a loading system.

here are the steps.

1) doors are closed
2) small C02 canister comes forward and locks into the torp door and injects Co2 through a 1 way valve, this ge rid of water in the loading tube
3) door opens and the Drum inserts a 1/4 inch BB into the tube
4) door shuts
5) tube is slowly flooded
6) small c02 canister come forward and looks in place
7)on command of the pilot the co2 propels the metal BB 1.2 feet out of the tube
the process is reapeated

as for using rockets, most clubs realy on Conways "All the worlds fighting ships" submarine lanched missiles wernt used until the 70s. so the use of missiles would be baned

RiverRaider

Hello,

Here is a picture of a German U boat Rocket test.
And an old magazine page I recently found with Cliff Shaw's British M-1 1/144

RiverRaider

Sarges_heroes2003

My Feedback: (6)

Subs are pretty much a non combatant. Far to slow, un maneuverable, and practically un arm able.
Id suggest getting a cruiser for combat or give up combat for a scale sub club. one or the other, No one likes the idea of there ship getting torn to scrap. These ships may look uglier than a junk yard dog but they cost $1000 dollars average. almost 2k for the nicer ones.
Now If you were to put $1000 in a combat ship and then some body comes allong and says, " hey dudes I have this really neat ideah for a rocket missle sub that will shred your ships to scrap (meaning you & I loose all the money) hahahLOLz Suxorz"

It does not sit well with me. And thats what im going to say on that.

subcaptian

Well, I have been testing it a bit more, but the BBs fail to evect from the missile. It just lands in the water with a big *splash*! also, If I fire it from a sub, It will have to be on the surface, as I have created tubes that wont be fried by the rocket, but I can't replicate the way that the navy does it on the real thing. They use bubbles to never let the water touch it. Also, It would be nice to have a sub to put it on.


On another note,quote "Now If you were to put $1000 in a combat ship and then some body comes allong and says, " hey dudes I have this really neat ideah for a rocket missle sub that will shred your ships to scrap (meaning you & I loose all the money) hahahLOLz Suxorz" " unquote.

MajorTomski

Way before we did this stuff on the internet, there was a gentleman who did bb combat with a Surcouf.
http://ahoy.tk-jk.net/macslog/French...urcoufthe.html

Since it was in essnce a crusier that could dive it fit well into the combat rules back then

Sarges_heroes2003

My Feedback: (6)

Just as long as your no where near the combat club I battle with when your showing off your missle thingy, or any one else for that matter.

Some thing you might want to check out, we airplane guys can not put rc bb guns on our planes. the AMA & FAA specifically prohibit any thing other than invisible lasers or ultra sonic "weapons". your bb's in a missle might be prohibited. Check it out before a real "test" sends you to jail.

Wreno

Rhetorical point. When someone wants to become a painter, they generally study and learn the techniques of the masters before embarking on their own path. That way they have the tools to draw on.

I wonder why it is that so many of us want to jump directly into coming up with a "new and improved" weapons system without having built a ship or worked with existing effective weapons, or battled to find out what the parameters are? The advice from those who actually do this stuff is almost invariably "we do not want to discourage you, but.... build a ship, battle it a while, then add your 'improvements' and test them if they still seem useful."

In short, 1/144 scale combat subs are not impossible, but are an advanced, tough, often finicky build, and have proven far less effective in combat under most rulesets than one might imagine. After all the effort, they are mainly a novelty, like PT boats. Even guys who specialize in subs (like the NAF guys), with decades of experience in combat say the same. For the same time and $$, you could probably have a nice ship or two on the water and battling effectively.

Cheers,

Wreno

subcaptian

I still think a sub is cool,

johnmCA72

And its almost always a "kid", too. I've pretty much given up trying to talk sense to any of them. Each new one that comes along is The One who's going to actually figure out how to put aim-able, precision-guided weapons into a space the size of an electric toothbrush handle, along with all the equipment necessary to make it dive, surface, propel itself, & steer, able to run all day long on a single battery charge, without re-arming, for about $100 or less. They'll then effortlessly sink everything else that floats to become "Master of the Seas", basking in the accolades as the rest of us bow down before their superior ability. They always end up giving up, though, or move on to something else once they've convinced themselves that they're smarter than the rest of us put together, so it just isn't worth the bother anymore to me.

What I miss most from my youth isn't the physical attributes of speed, strength, or endurance; it's knowing everything! I sure have gotten stupid as I've aged!

JM

subcaptian

I'm not saying the sub would be a "super-sub", just hard to hit. As I said, it would need to be on the surface to launch its missiles. It would not have torpedoes though, so It would be somewhat defensles. It would need an escort.

Wreno

Cool? Point conceded. A fast, effective, 6" PT Boat "would" also be cool. Flights of 1/144 planes flying in formation after being launched from carriers "would be" terribly cool. Many difficult or impossible things "would be cool." However, 1) the rules do not permit missile subs, and 2) good luck getting one built that would work in 1/144, even if they were permitted, and 3) no real way to make them effective, since the damage area of the ships is a band of balsa at a 90 or more degree angle from the launch trajectory.

If the point is a hard target, build a small tramp steamer (have one, and it is a blast). It may be slow, gut there is very little penetrable area above the waterline and it is highly maneuverable. Arm it with a BB caliber cannon or two (some ships can take one, two, or even more). I had planned to arm mine, but have never gotten around to it. Too much fun as is. Mine is based on the 22" Royal Oak II hull from Bowning Shipyards. A similar (slightly larger, I believe) ship is the Hog Islander from Dreadnought Hulls. If you want a hard target that is fast and can pack a sub-like punch, go with a destroyer like the Z series from Battlers Connection - a tough build, to be sure, but not as tough as a sub.

Point being, if you actually look into the sport a bit without preconceptions, you will find that there are huge variety of ships that meet your desired battle style (except for the "being unseen" or sneaky part of a sub.... though, if your enemy cannot see your sub, neither can you).

Cheers,

Wreno

subcaptian

If It was a tad larger I could put a camera in the periscope, if it was like, 1/96 scale. I still think a sub would be cool, and as for the missile, the bbs would scatter away from the missile, thus "multiple burst missile".

Deathwish

My Feedback: (6)

hey subcaptian we have the same icon lol

subcaptian

Well, I couldn't get the missile to work, but I am starting to build a 1/144 scale Seawolf, and I came up with a design for firing, scale torpedoes. See here. Also, look at that poor sub being chased!