Magazine ad rates
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RE: Magazine ad rates
ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy
Bob
The forum will put the REPLY To as the last post when the Fast Reply box is used rather than hitting the Reply button at a specific post. I assume you are talking about #55, it is likely he quoted and attribed to you while using the FastReply textbox, and that put the ReplyTo as Toolman.
That is why it is always handy to address the post, like I did here,
especially when you qre going to quote someone.
Bob
The forum will put the REPLY To as the last post when the Fast Reply box is used rather than hitting the Reply button at a specific post. I assume you are talking about #55, it is likely he quoted and attribed to you while using the FastReply textbox, and that put the ReplyTo as Toolman.
That is why it is always handy to address the post, like I did here,
especially when you qre going to quote someone.
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RE: Magazine ad rates
ORIGINAL: STLPilot
Oh and Bob Mitchell, here is a link to AOPA Pilots distribution report, it claims circulation only to membership and subscibers, no single sales channels. [link=http://www.aopaadvertising.org/AOPA2008Site/pdf/Dec07ABC.pdf]LINK[/link]
Not calling you a liar, I've just never seen AOPA Pilot in any rag shop including B&N. Also take a look at their rate card, $14,000 for 1 time full page spread. That's 12 times more than MA charges for 2.5 times greater circulation. Why ... they can get it ... they never demanded it .... they charge it because that money is available from the companies that advertise as full scale flying has MONSTERS in business and of course a lot of mom and pops whose parts alone sometimes start in the thousands.
Oh and Bob Mitchell, here is a link to AOPA Pilots distribution report, it claims circulation only to membership and subscibers, no single sales channels. [link=http://www.aopaadvertising.org/AOPA2008Site/pdf/Dec07ABC.pdf]LINK[/link]
Not calling you a liar, I've just never seen AOPA Pilot in any rag shop including B&N. Also take a look at their rate card, $14,000 for 1 time full page spread. That's 12 times more than MA charges for 2.5 times greater circulation. Why ... they can get it ... they never demanded it .... they charge it because that money is available from the companies that advertise as full scale flying has MONSTERS in business and of course a lot of mom and pops whose parts alone sometimes start in the thousands.
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RE: Magazine ad rates
ORIGINAL: The Toolman
stl, did you learn all of this from your boss at Frontier Financial Advisors there on Wall st. or did ya just make it up on your own? By the way, do they do anything for the ama or is that a secret the members shouldn't know?
ORIGINAL: STLPilot
EXACTLY! And MA uses the reverse technique to quantify their prices for their ads, exactly! All rags use this formula.
At the end of the day if I were purchasing for this type of product (rc models, accessories, radios, whatever) I would use an online product called Whoscalling.com.
This enables you to tack a different 800 number in each ad that will piggy back on to your incoming phone line. You can then run about 40 different reports that will show which ad produced the call, when it came in, what the call duration was, which part of which city it came from (great for sending out bulk mail later if you find a good hot spot) ETC.
This enables you to tack a different 800 number in each ad that will piggy back on to your incoming phone line. You can then run about 40 different reports that will show which ad produced the call, when it came in, what the call duration was, which part of which city it came from (great for sending out bulk mail later if you find a good hot spot) ETC.
#81
RE: Magazine ad rates
ORIGINAL: STLPilot
EXACTLY! And MA uses the reverse technique to quantify their prices for their ads, exactly! All rags use this formula.
EXACTLY! And MA uses the reverse technique to quantify their prices for their ads, exactly! All rags use this formula.
Bill, AMA 4720
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RE: Magazine ad rates
Bluesky
You had a good post, but I'd like to make this comment:
MA is ALREADY on retail shelves for John Q Public to buy without AMA membership.
It is full of reviews, tech tips, discipline articles, and AMA PR pieces (SiteAssist did this, Muncie did that for charity, blah blah),
along with a little bit of Muncie/Member info that non-AMA would find boring. I say this from my memory of getting MA, since I, like STL, dont get MA and dont know what is really in there.
Perhaps one of you guys that get MA could flip thru and page count the InsideInfo, not counting stuff that plays well as PR like site assist and scholorships) vs how thick the magazine is.
On the other hand, Model Aviation could hit the shelves as it exists
MA is ALREADY on retail shelves for John Q Public to buy without AMA membership.
It is full of reviews, tech tips, discipline articles, and AMA PR pieces (SiteAssist did this, Muncie did that for charity, blah blah),
along with a little bit of Muncie/Member info that non-AMA would find boring. I say this from my memory of getting MA, since I, like STL, dont get MA and dont know what is really in there.
Perhaps one of you guys that get MA could flip thru and page count the InsideInfo, not counting stuff that plays well as PR like site assist and scholorships) vs how thick the magazine is.
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RE: Magazine ad rates
In order to best respond, let me use your post so we don't get lost on the way.
I personally think that the MA should bring a profit, all I am saying is that in order to do so through the raising of rates, whomever is in charge needs to be careful that they can back up the increase with an equal amount of results. If they can't, then the increase will lead to a mass exodus that will trigger a sharp decline in revenue which usually is followed by a drastic cut in ad rates to get the advertisers back. So what started as a perceived step forward, ends up as a slide down the slippery slope.
Two words...Geico Caveman
Love it or hate it, it was advertising genius that has paid off in the millions.
That was no accident.
ORIGINAL: combatpigg
Completely over thinking it and using gross assumptions to arrive at your conclusions.
Please understand, this isn't me overthinking anything, this is years and years of research at the cost of millions of dollars to try and understand how to get end users the biggest bang for their buck. There were no gross assumptions made, it is how through research we have learned folks buy advertised products.
Saying that ad space in MA has less value than any other magazine is at the extreme end of the reality spectrum.
Actually that is very much based in fact. Let me ask you a question. If you purchase something how do you care for it? Depending on the cost of the product you will tend to take better care than if you were simply given a like product. The end user feels more of a sense of ownership if they put hard dollars on the line.
With all the technology and marketing science known to man, huge and disasterous mistakes get made every day in the business world.
I completely agree with you on that point, but that does not make what I posted incorrect.
Trying to make this sound like rocket science instead of the very in-exact science that it really is adds no credence to your argument.
I really don't want to offend you, but if you can't understand how these concepts are arrived at, I can't help you. Suffice it to say that advertising works, because it is not a shot in the dark like you suggest. Ad concepts are very accurately aimed at the very target market they want to sell to. Years of study and research backs that up and because of that companies spend millions on that process. Would they spend the money if it didn't work?
A magazine like MA is in a unique position to test the waters to see what their ad space is really worth. Yes indeed, you can name your own price if you control the bulk of the market. The mega advertisers already have ads in all the other magazines and if one of them was to vacate MA over a rate sqabble, that will serve to create a vaccuum that opportunistic competitors will fill.
If MA ran their mag like they either had to make a profit or close the doors, I'm pretty sure that the numbers in the auditor's report would do a 180. The magazine should be looked upon as an asset that the AMA can profit from, instead of the magazine looking at the AMA as an asset that they take profits from.
Completely over thinking it and using gross assumptions to arrive at your conclusions.
Please understand, this isn't me overthinking anything, this is years and years of research at the cost of millions of dollars to try and understand how to get end users the biggest bang for their buck. There were no gross assumptions made, it is how through research we have learned folks buy advertised products.
Saying that ad space in MA has less value than any other magazine is at the extreme end of the reality spectrum.
Actually that is very much based in fact. Let me ask you a question. If you purchase something how do you care for it? Depending on the cost of the product you will tend to take better care than if you were simply given a like product. The end user feels more of a sense of ownership if they put hard dollars on the line.
With all the technology and marketing science known to man, huge and disasterous mistakes get made every day in the business world.
I completely agree with you on that point, but that does not make what I posted incorrect.
Trying to make this sound like rocket science instead of the very in-exact science that it really is adds no credence to your argument.
I really don't want to offend you, but if you can't understand how these concepts are arrived at, I can't help you. Suffice it to say that advertising works, because it is not a shot in the dark like you suggest. Ad concepts are very accurately aimed at the very target market they want to sell to. Years of study and research backs that up and because of that companies spend millions on that process. Would they spend the money if it didn't work?
A magazine like MA is in a unique position to test the waters to see what their ad space is really worth. Yes indeed, you can name your own price if you control the bulk of the market. The mega advertisers already have ads in all the other magazines and if one of them was to vacate MA over a rate sqabble, that will serve to create a vaccuum that opportunistic competitors will fill.
If MA ran their mag like they either had to make a profit or close the doors, I'm pretty sure that the numbers in the auditor's report would do a 180. The magazine should be looked upon as an asset that the AMA can profit from, instead of the magazine looking at the AMA as an asset that they take profits from.
Two words...Geico Caveman
Love it or hate it, it was advertising genius that has paid off in the millions.
That was no accident.
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RE: Magazine ad rates
RE Liborators exodus theory
(which isnt a bad bit of theorizing itself)
The ads that we dont print, dont have to be paid for by AMA to print:
Costs would decrease as the number of advertizers drops (or ad sizes drop per STL).
Would this be a positively efficient reduction rate for AMA?
No, advertizing brings in more than it costs to print.
However, it brings in just a few percent (word on the street) more than it costs...
meaning losing $X in ad revenue should result in a ~0.9X drop in production cost.
With our generic $1mil in, $2mil spent example,
it is wholely possible that it could run $0mil in and just $1.1mil out
if every last one of the advertizers exodate (exodize? exode??? )
....which, acording to some folks creative accounting[:@],
means it will only cost $1.1mil and stil get $18 x150k 'subscriptions',
to still give AMA almost $2mil "profit"[&:]
which kinda shows why that kind of accounting dont make a lick of sense
(which isnt a bad bit of theorizing itself)
The ads that we dont print, dont have to be paid for by AMA to print:
Costs would decrease as the number of advertizers drops (or ad sizes drop per STL).
Would this be a positively efficient reduction rate for AMA?
No, advertizing brings in more than it costs to print.
However, it brings in just a few percent (word on the street) more than it costs...
meaning losing $X in ad revenue should result in a ~0.9X drop in production cost.
With our generic $1mil in, $2mil spent example,
it is wholely possible that it could run $0mil in and just $1.1mil out
if every last one of the advertizers exodate (exodize? exode??? )
....which, acording to some folks creative accounting[:@],
means it will only cost $1.1mil and stil get $18 x150k 'subscriptions',
to still give AMA almost $2mil "profit"[&:]
which kinda shows why that kind of accounting dont make a lick of sense
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RE: Magazine ad rates
ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy
Bluesky
You had a good post, but I'd like to make this comment:
MA is ALREADY on retail shelves for John Q Public to buy without AMA membership.
It is full of reviews, tech tips, discipline articles, and AMA PR pieces (SiteAssist did this, Muncie did that for charity, blah blah),
along with a little bit of Muncie/Member info that non-AMA would find boring. I say this from my memory of getting MA, since I, like STL, dont get MA and dont know what is really in there.
Perhaps one of you guys that get MA could flip thru and page count the InsideInfo, not counting stuff that plays well as PR like site assist and scholorships) vs how thick the magazine is.
Bluesky
On the other hand, Model Aviation could hit the shelves as it exists
MA is ALREADY on retail shelves for John Q Public to buy without AMA membership.
It is full of reviews, tech tips, discipline articles, and AMA PR pieces (SiteAssist did this, Muncie did that for charity, blah blah),
along with a little bit of Muncie/Member info that non-AMA would find boring. I say this from my memory of getting MA, since I, like STL, dont get MA and dont know what is really in there.
Perhaps one of you guys that get MA could flip thru and page count the InsideInfo, not counting stuff that plays well as PR like site assist and scholorships) vs how thick the magazine is.
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RE: Magazine ad rates
I personally think that the MA should bring a profit, all I am saying is that in order to do so through the raising of rates, whomever is in charge needs to be careful that they can back up the increase with an equal amount of results. If they can't, then the increase will lead to a mass exodus that will trigger a sharp decline in revenue which usually is followed by a drastic cut in ad rates to get the advertisers back. So what started as a perceived step forward, ends up as a slide down the slippery slope
You start realizing these things when you spend your own hard earned dollars on advertising.
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RE: Magazine ad rates
ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder
Hey, Wall Street..... How's things out on the FRONTIER?[>:][>:][>:][8D][8D]
Bill, AMA 4720
ORIGINAL: STLPilot
EXACTLY! And MA uses the reverse technique to quantify their prices for their ads, exactly! All rags use this formula.
EXACTLY! And MA uses the reverse technique to quantify their prices for their ads, exactly! All rags use this formula.
Bill, AMA 4720
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RE: Magazine ad rates
STL says
That is a claim that the rates are set by ad sales
However, Mark S says
Which tosses STLs theory out the window and replaces it with the actual reasoning they raised the rates: Arbitrarily heavyhanded rate hike because they saw others were charging more and wanted to charge more too.... and that last bit about expenses responsibility means to cut the cash hemorrage a bit (aka run more profitably <aka less lossfully>)
Quick show of hands,
who thinks STLs reason is why Muncie just raised rates,
and who thinks Mark S's reason is why.
It certainly is within reason that MarkS could be wrong,
STL, are you saying MarkS is wrong?
<edit+>
STL,
just how much is the Fullpage that you say is 30%less 'right now'?
Exaclty and the AMA has been changing prices both forwards and backwards. In fact right now it's 30% less to purchase a full page spread, then it was 3 years ago ... why do you think that is? Because sales have slowed down. When sales speed up, their raise rates again.
However, Mark S says
This includes making sure that our advertising rates are inline with industry standards as well as responsibly managing all of the expenses associated with publication
Quick show of hands,
who thinks STLs reason is why Muncie just raised rates,
and who thinks Mark S's reason is why.
It certainly is within reason that MarkS could be wrong,
STL, are you saying MarkS is wrong?
<edit+>
STL,
just how much is the Fullpage that you say is 30%less 'right now'?
#91
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RE: Magazine ad rates
ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy
STL says
That is a claim that the rates are set by ad sales
However, Mark S says
Which tosses STLs theory out the window and replaces it with the actual reasoning they raised the rates: Arbitrarily heavyhanded rate hike because they saw others were charging more and wanted to charge more too.... and that last bit about expenses responsibility means to cut the cash hemorrage a bit (aka run more profitably <aka less lossfully>)
Quick show of hands,
who thinks STLs reason is why Muncie just raised rates,
and who thinks Mark S's reason is why.
It certainly is within reason that MarkS could be wrong,
STL, are you saying MarkS is wrong?
<edit+>
STL,
just how much is the Fullpage that you say is 30%less 'right now'?
STL says
Exaclty and the AMA has been changing prices both forwards and backwards. In fact right now it's 30% less to purchase a full page spread, then it was 3 years ago ... why do you think that is? Because sales have slowed down. When sales speed up, their raise rates again.
However, Mark S says
This includes making sure that our advertising rates are inline with industry standards as well as responsibly managing all of the expenses associated with publication
Quick show of hands,
who thinks STLs reason is why Muncie just raised rates,
and who thinks Mark S's reason is why.
It certainly is within reason that MarkS could be wrong,
STL, are you saying MarkS is wrong?
<edit+>
STL,
just how much is the Fullpage that you say is 30%less 'right now'?
In re pricing ... look it up if you care that much. Call them for historical rates, give yourself a little due dilligence on your end.
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RE: Magazine ad rates
Well to be honest rates fluctuating is certainly not a new thing. It is very common to have them ebb and flow based on the time of year, new expenses, new editors etc. What makes things hard in advertising is to go backward and then try to go forward in terms of rate increases.
WHen you slide a bit and give a deal then it is pretty hard to go back to full rate out of the blue.
Often you will see a "holiday" deal or a"customer appreciation" program which should read, (we are trying to drive up revenue this month for whatever reason and this will give a quick infusion). Typically the customer will appreciate the temporary dip and not complain when it goes back to full rate next month.
WHen you slide a bit and give a deal then it is pretty hard to go back to full rate out of the blue.
Often you will see a "holiday" deal or a"customer appreciation" program which should read, (we are trying to drive up revenue this month for whatever reason and this will give a quick infusion). Typically the customer will appreciate the temporary dip and not complain when it goes back to full rate next month.
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RE: Magazine ad rates
ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy
Quick show of hands,
who thinks STLs reason is why Muncie just raised rates,
and who thinks Mark S's reason is why.
Quick show of hands,
who thinks STLs reason is why Muncie just raised rates,
and who thinks Mark S's reason is why.
Advertising space is a saleable commodity, just as are cars and houses. When demand for houses go down, so do prices. When demand for ad space goes down, so will prices as magazines compete for advertising dollars. That's the way the market works. In addition, competent managers will be aware of what the competition is doing so as to remain competitive.
The two are not mutually exclusive.
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RE: Magazine ad rates
So Bob,
you are saying that Mark was just in his style of communicating?
Just as he wont tell us about the disclosed conflict of interest when we ask,
he also didnt tell us about sales driven pricing.
If we are to believe there is STLs hike reasoning hidden in some Muncie Stealth Agenda
(an agenda that DM will probably answer truthfully, fully, & rapidly if asked... as has been his style so far)
has Mark answered ANY question fully?
So now we cant even trust his MA answers.... [:'(]<sigh>
Ad Rates?
How do we know if AMA really did raise the rates in Jan as Mark said,
the online RateCard I got that blue quotation from was OLD,
and it seems you guys think MarkS was holding out on us (again)
STL
I did grab the rate card PDF that Muncie had online.
That is where that blue quotation came from.
However, it is old numbers.
Which is why I am implying that you dont have the new numbers to say they are 30% lower,
by asking for you to provide us the right now number you are bandying about.
Its like I am calling you on your 30% claim... just like it.. exactly like it... aww heck, I AM calling you on it.
30%? Really? Lets see the numbers.
I made a polite request, which didnt work... so now I am having to dog you on it.
Tomorrow (monday) is columbus day, and I am assuming Muncie is closed,
so by posting the numbers monday you demonstrate that you had them when you calimed to do math on them....
which also lends itself to what happens if you wait till Tuesday:
We all figure you didnt have them and made a quick call Tues morning to get them.
you are saying that Mark was just in his style of communicating?
Just as he wont tell us about the disclosed conflict of interest when we ask,
he also didnt tell us about sales driven pricing.
If we are to believe there is STLs hike reasoning hidden in some Muncie Stealth Agenda
(an agenda that DM will probably answer truthfully, fully, & rapidly if asked... as has been his style so far)
has Mark answered ANY question fully?
So now we cant even trust his MA answers.... [:'(]<sigh>
Ad Rates?
How do we know if AMA really did raise the rates in Jan as Mark said,
the online RateCard I got that blue quotation from was OLD,
and it seems you guys think MarkS was holding out on us (again)
STL
In re pricing ... look it up if you care that much.
That is where that blue quotation came from.
However, it is old numbers.
Which is why I am implying that you dont have the new numbers to say they are 30% lower,
by asking for you to provide us the right now number you are bandying about.
Its like I am calling you on your 30% claim... just like it.. exactly like it... aww heck, I AM calling you on it.
30%? Really? Lets see the numbers.
I made a polite request, which didnt work... so now I am having to dog you on it.
Tomorrow (monday) is columbus day, and I am assuming Muncie is closed,
so by posting the numbers monday you demonstrate that you had them when you calimed to do math on them....
which also lends itself to what happens if you wait till Tuesday:
We all figure you didnt have them and made a quick call Tues morning to get them.
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RE: Magazine ad rates
Do you ACTUALLY think stl is going to give you an unbiased answer? He still thinks we are here to serve the ama instead of the other way around.
#97
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RE: Magazine ad rates
ORIGINAL: The Toolman
Since you haven't been keeping track of things here in the last year or two..........A lot of them here say the ama mag is letting the advertisers off to cheap on ad rates. Sooooo, I was just giving the guys something to compare with.
Next time, investigate a little before you jump me...
Since you haven't been keeping track of things here in the last year or two..........A lot of them here say the ama mag is letting the advertisers off to cheap on ad rates. Sooooo, I was just giving the guys something to compare with.
Next time, investigate a little before you jump me...
And nobody is required to investigate what isn't clear enough to give 'em a clue what to investigate for.