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Safety Violations

Old 07-07-2009, 10:59 AM
  #26  
Doc...
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Default RE: Safety Violations

Hi,

I was just informed by email about the coments you made about my Turbine Waver flight on Video. My Name on the Threads is Doc..., Fredrick V. Gambino. Listed is a response about that which I copied and pasting now. I will go and post what happened which was not in sight on the video. "There is a cross runway which is not in use. There were 2 Deer coming down that runway and I went into the grass so as not to spook them. As it turned out, they turned around and ran never coming on to the actual runway. It all happened very fast and my action was totally excepted. If you look real close, I center lined the takeoff and the landing then did what I had to do to avoid the pending problem. This exact statement will be copied and posted with Mr. Greens name for sure."

OK...With all that being said, don't you think it would have been a good idea to address the issue with me instead of attacking the 2 people who signed me off? I probably should have mentioned some of this on my orriginal posting or just edited it out before uploading it to YouTube, but I didn't. This Filght was followed by three other flights and 4 additional landings. My Instructor has worked hard with me since May 23 simply because it takes time to get use to the response time of my P-80 which is not the SE version. I have been flying DF Jets since 1991 and flew on the Show team in AZ for 9 years. Experience is not my problem. What my problem is with people that assume things first and ask questions last. I'm highly offended at the back stabing jab you took at the two people who signed me off. Both of these guys are tops in flying and what they do. I can personally tell you there only intention is to make sure the skills are there and the safety is fomost. For future reference, I will post this entire statement on the Boomerang Sprint Build Thread because like me, many feel you should have talked to me 1st hand. If you have any other coments, feel free to email me and will also be more than happy to talk to you on the phone. My Court schedual is light this week so time is really not a problem. In the future, please be carefull about slanderous coments.

Doc...[&o]
Old 07-07-2009, 11:05 AM
  #27  
KC36330
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Default RE: Safety Violations

i called no one by name and it wasn't a personal attack on you or the two who signed you off, i simply stated that you ran off the runway, which is a fact, that's a fail on the qualification flight IMO regardless of the circumstances, you didn't maintain centerline on roll out and that IS a requirement of the flight.
Old 07-07-2009, 11:09 AM
  #28  
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Default RE: Safety Violations

KC, FWIW, I actually agree with Doc on this one, I have not seen the video, but I have signed off a bunch of guys that were off center on landing and take off. I figure I am an imperfect pilot, and I have been in the grass more times than I care to admit. I'm still competent. Just not perfect.
Old 07-07-2009, 11:25 AM
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Default RE: Safety Violations

there's a difference in off center and landing center then running completely off the runway. the video had the nose wheel in clear view and no visible inputs were given to steering be it to keep centerline or divert otherwise.
Old 07-07-2009, 12:49 PM
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Default RE: Safety Violations

Hi,

Remember, there were 3 other flight which, combined with the first, enabled my people to feel good enough about my ability, response time and safety. If it makes you feel better, although I have obtained my Waver, I will not be flying alone and my people still plan on working with me. I don't know an instructor who would not have signed me off knowing my ability and at the last second having the runway filled with Deer. For most of the instructors, the sign off procedure is not broken. Please dont try to fix it. Here is your exact coment. ORIGINAL: Kevin Greene

................"and how they received their waiver is beyond me.

I chalk that up to the two who signed them off could care less about it. there is a video that was posted here in the forum in the last few days of a waiver qualification flight, he was signed off according to the post and on landing the jet ran off the runway.........as a turbine CD I wouldn't have signed him off."

If that is not a stab at my instructors, I don't know what is!!!!!!!!!!

Doc...
Old 07-07-2009, 02:33 PM
  #31  
KC36330
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Default RE: Safety Violations

it's two different statements, one being that the two people who sign off the people you see who can't fly and are a danger to themselves and others (the ones Kevin spoke of) could care less that they signed off someone, the second was that going by the video you posted, i as a turbine CD would not have signed you off on that flight. if something caused you to divert that's well and fine, but you'd of had to fly again for me to have signed you off. i don't expect anyone to make a perfect landing every time, especially someone who's got the newbie nerves like I'm sure you had when doing the demonstration flight but after working on full scale jets and helis for the last 19 yrs i don't sign anything off that isn't IMO 100%, your posted flight being one such example. i take just as much responsibility in my signature saying whomever is a qualified RC turbine pilot as i do signing off the log book on the full scales.
Old 07-07-2009, 03:54 PM
  #32  
Kevin Greene
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Default RE: Safety Violations

ORIGINAL: KC36330

it's two different statements, one being that the two people who sign off the people you see who can't fly and are a danger to themselves and others (the ones Kevin spoke of) could care less that they signed off someone, the second was that going by the video you posted, i as a turbine CD would not have signed you off on that flight. if something caused you to divert that's well and fine, but you'd of had to fly again for me to have signed you off. i don't expect anyone to make a perfect landing every time, especially someone who's got the newbie nerves like I'm sure you had when doing the demonstration flight but after working on full scale jets and helis for the last 19 yrs i don't sign anything off that isn't IMO 100%, your posted flight being one such example. i take just as much responsibility in my signature saying whomever is a qualified RC turbine pilot as i do signing off the log book on the full scales.
Good post...

Do any of you Turbine CD's understand (I believe that KC does due to his obvious care for safety) that YOU CAN BE SUED FOR DAMAGES if you sign off someone that isn't qualified and he/she crashes and causes bodily harm/property damages???....Before you sign someone off you better know that you are literally putting your ***** on the line for monetary damages if the person really cannot fly...And I'm not so sure that you wouldn't be sued anyway even if the guy could fly but caused damages in this litigous society...

Turbine CD's....You had better have all of your I's dotted and your T's crossed before you sign a guy off!!!

Kevin
Old 07-07-2009, 04:14 PM
  #33  
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Default RE: Safety Violations


ORIGINAL: Doc...

Hi,

ORIGINAL: Kevin Greene

................''and how they received their waiver is beyond me.

I chalk that up to the two who signed them off could care less about it.
Doc...
Doc...Just to make myself clear, my comment wasn't directed at you as I have never seen you fly!!!....I based my comment after seeing a couple of guys fly at events....(I won't post a comment about something like this unless I have first hand knowledge).... And to be extremely honest I have NEVER seen one of these individuals come home with a jet that was intact/flyable after flying at an event...Crashed or damaged his planes at every event I saw him fly...And this member has been reported to the AMA but still has his waiver...Go figure...

Kevin
Old 07-07-2009, 04:25 PM
  #34  
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Default RE: Safety Violations

Hi,

That's the one thing we agree on. Maybe you missed my coment but yes, I was deverted with the 2 Deer. I made the decision to go into the high grass on the left instead of spooking them. Now if it was just bad piloting, nobody should sign me off. I agree. I have seen very bad accidents in this hobby in my 34 years of flying. Do you remember hearing a situation in AZ back about 1992 where during a pylon race, one of the planes got away and hit one of the guys in the back of the head? It wasn't pretty; he died. I know because I was out there. At that time cages and helmets wern't required. SAFETY is the #1 concern and always should be. I was in complete control of the Sprint but not the Deer and I did what I felt was needed at that moment and it turned out ok. If I had to do it all over again, I would do it again.

Thanks for your thoughts,

Doc...
Old 07-15-2009, 10:23 AM
  #35  
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Default RE: Safety Violations

After consulting with the AMA a couple of years back about what to do about an unsafe club member, the AMA said you should document in writing anything the club officers do in the line of discipline of any members. This was so that if an incident or accedent does happen that the club can prove that they have taken action to repremand an unsafe indivudal, or tack action on an unsafe condition and not just let it slide ... now that is straight from the AMA ...
Old 07-15-2009, 11:42 AM
  #36  
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Default RE: Safety Violations

Hi,

I just want to make something perfectly clear and that we are on the same page. I don't dissagree with what you said, but before I go further, I want to know if all this is been directed towards me. If not, that's fine but if it is, how can someone make a final conclusion from a small Video not seeing the entire picture. In the legal world we call this mitigating circumstances; the other side of the big picture. Again, if this is about me, I really hope there is NOTHING written up on me. I have never had a complaint turned in on me in 34 years of being with the AMA and the 9 plus years I spent flying on a Show Team. Please keep me posted.

Doc...
Old 07-15-2009, 03:20 PM
  #37  
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Default RE: Safety Violations


ORIGINAL: KC36330

As the 'Safety Coordinator' for our club and due to recent repeat offenders I'm looking into creating a penalty system for those who violate the safety regulations set forth in AMA/Our Clubs field guidelines, constitution and bylaws. I was wondering if any other clubs out there have similar penalty systems in place.

example, first offense a verbal/written warning, second offense a monetary fine, third offense temporary suspension, further offenses result in a banning from the club, etc.........


any input is welcome.

I picked up on this thread in the Clubhouse forum. Guess it was moved from there to here.

As a long time club officer, worker, etc. etc. I agree with others that penalties do not work in model airplane clubs. There are far too many little 'cliques' in clubs to get something like that in check as far as the good guys-bad guys go.

First as a safety coordinator, you have to have full support of the Club Officers to accomplish anything.

Funny ah, not so funny story. Club pres. appoints A to be Safety officer. A happened to be highly experienced in AMA matters, club set-ups and operations, and a disciplined personality. Well, President's little clique were the worst at ignoring the published rules ref. frequency control. (2.4 not yet on board) Several planes had been crashed, mostly by lesser experienced fliers, so they were just that, and their fault!
A started to keeping records, and jumped on a few of the "washed clean" types one day. Big talk at next club meeting. Pres. and Clique changed the rules to lessen the procedures to - in A's opinion - an unsafe operation. A had expected same and had a resignation letter ready. Pres. appointed a Smiling Agreeable to position. Such has never discussed Safety in past 3 years, nor done anything about problems. Newbies seldom hear about freq. control of any kind.

There is much more to the story, however IMO, if you have Club Officers that back you, after you all discuss the problems, then you have some power to push an agenda. If they do not have an interest in the program, it is dead and you get a name of being less that a good guy tip-toeing through the tulips. 'Nuff Said.
Old 07-15-2009, 05:14 PM
  #38  
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Default RE: Safety Violations

Doc,
I didn't get that KC was directing any of this at you directly at all. I think he was merely pointing out something he had seen as an example and indicative of a wider problem. I think he explained his view politely and clearly. I also think it is pretty clear that your flight had extenuating circumstances, but that KC still would have had you fly again. Not to say that you are not safe, just that he - in his opinion would make doubly sure before he signs off on anything.

On the topic of safety...
Now back to club rules and bad fliers. I agree that the AMA rules seem fair and that cash penalties would cause serious issues. I also agree that any actions taken should be documented. One would hope that the safety officer is impartial in their decision to reprimand individuals. In our club we offer training classes, I would suggest that people who are repeat offenders be forced to complete a training course before having field privileges reinstated.

-Brian
Old 07-15-2009, 05:35 PM
  #39  
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Default RE: Safety Violations


ORIGINAL: rcjetsaok

I know exactly what you mean.. We have had our share of those as well. I hope I live long enough to have to hang it up from being an old fart !!!!! One of the funniest things I saw at our field years ago was one of the old timers like you described, went out to fly a hand launch plane and he threw the transmitter instead of the plane !!!!!! I was in tears and pee'd my pants I was laughing so hard !!!..
Oh well, as long as nobody gets hurt or damages someone elses stuff, you got to laugh !!!!

later !!

Dan M.
thats hilarious
Old 07-15-2009, 05:36 PM
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Default RE: Safety Violations

well to put an end to all this, Monday night was our club meeting and i brought all the information i collected here and from AMA's documentation and presented it to the remainder of the executive comity and we're working on revising our bylaws (which was the whole point of this post to start with and i thought that was clearly stated). as it was our bylaws had no penalty procedures for such offenses and a few things in it needed addressed and now they are being worked out.

thanks to all who sent emails/pm's and those who replied with helpful information on the topic.

kc
Old 07-15-2009, 06:41 PM
  #41  
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Default RE: Safety Violations

Yeah, you are right. If you can't play by the rules play somewhere else. Just don't be so nice and sugar coat anything. Tell them like it is! It's your hobby too. Hold a club meeting and tell them all so no one is singled out or (good greif) offended, poor baby.
Old 07-15-2009, 10:21 PM
  #42  
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Default RE: Safety Violations

Hi,

Thanks for getting back on this. There is much that has been said about safety and I'm the first to jump on that band wagon. The video in question was on my 1st flight of the day, around 10:15am or so. There were 3 more flights after that which included all the flying requirements to obtain a waver included 2 aborted landings my Instuctors deceided to through in just for S & G's but once the smoke cleared, I was signed off at 15:15. It probably would have been a good idea to originally state this but I didn't. Anyway, the day went well and I was pretty pumped about the waver. As an experienced flyer, I can tell you both my instructors are very qualified pilots and instructors. I appreciate everyones concern on safety.

Doc...
Old 08-10-2009, 01:42 AM
  #43  
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Default RE: Safety Violations

As one of those "Old Farts" mentioned previously I feel the need to offer a word here. I would give anything to be around when those who deride us Old Farts so unmercilous get to be Old Farts themselves (and someday they will) where then they will be on the receiving end of the things we Old Farts do to irritate and make them pee in their pants. That youn 'un peed in hiis pants!

I heard the "throwing the Transmitter and not the model" tale way back in the early 70's and you know, I even laughed then myself. It did happen, but at a Club field out in California, and the Transmitter Launcher was not an Old Fart, but an over anxious young guy who just forgot which hand held which. Thankfully he didn't hit anyone. I'm wondering, would the young fella have peed in his pants after seeing someone his own age do such a thing. Stupidity induced from Anxiety is not found in just the aged, the young do their share, and then some. Sunshine and Tailwinds guys, Grampaw
Old 08-12-2009, 06:17 PM
  #44  
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Default RE: Safety Violations

ORIGINAL: Grampaw

As one of those ''Old Farts'' mentioned previously I feel the need to offer a word here. I would give anything to be around when those who deride us Old Farts so unmercilous get to be Old Farts themselves (and someday they will) where then they will be on the receiving end of the things we Old Farts do to irritate and make them pee in their pants. That youn 'un peed in hiis pants!

Grampaw
Here, Here !
Well Said Grampaw..

Cheeez, can't control his emotlions or his bladder and then tells us about it.

Watch your six, there just maybe an Old Fart there ......heh heh

Doug
Old 08-13-2009, 11:12 PM
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Default RE: Safety Violations

Much of this comes from bad training. if your club trained these flyers, they should be held accountable also
Old 08-13-2009, 11:42 PM
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Default RE: Safety Violations

we don't do the training program in our club, most of our new members are TDY people just passing through for a few yrs while in WOC and flight school.

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