mdwpylonracer42h

In some of the 2 pole Club 40 racing, there has been state,emt that you should fly above the pylons because that is per AMA. I have read the AMA rules under pylon racing and I come to a different interpretation. It is obvious that you would want to be above pylon height for 3 pole racing, and that is specifically spelled out under section 13.1.14, "Aircraft shall not fly lower than the tops of the pylons". This is becuase under the 3 pole system, there are people/pilots "within" the race course. This is under section 13.1 "Three Pylon Racecouse".

The section changes for two pylon racing to 13.2, and never mentions the fact to follow 13.1 rules. 13.3 is for F3D, and it mentions to follow all of 13.1 rules, especially since it is a 3 pole course with people inside of it.

My argument is that one should not be limited by the height of the poles for two pole racing. In fact, I think this is safer to fly under if you can. If the plane has a mishap it has less to go before meeting Mother Earth and causing other problems to the outside spectators, etc.

Not everyone feels comfortable down there, but should the pilots that do be disqualified if they do?

I think that this should be CD specific to the event, i.e. allow or disallow for Club 40 or otherwise if it involves 2 poles in lieu of 3.

I do not think that it is a specific AMA rule under RC Racing that you should fly above the poles for a 2 pylon course.

What are the other CDs opinions on this?

ChrisAttebery

My Feedback: (15)

I'm not a CD, but I fly the WM T-34 series out here that is very similar to the Club 40 rules. I try to fly at or below the height of the pylons 90% of the time. The other 10% is when it's really windy and gusting. Then I find that 20' feet of extra altitude is a bit of insurance to not hit the dirt.

Personally, I find that the air is more still and it's easier to judge the pylons when you are flying low.

mdwpylonracer42h

Well Chris, I like it down there too for the same reasons you do. Plus, when you are on the deck, you know your flying is pretty level. You lose airspeed going up, you gain going down, but you just build momentum at the same altitude 5 feet above the ground.

scausey

My Feedback: (2)

I understand flying closer to the ground, but why would you want to risk your aircraft to fly below the pylons. If you fly tight on the course you stand a better chance of hitting a pylon this way. What is the big deal to fly 5-10 over the pylon for insurance reasons. I know for a fact at speeds of the Q40, planes with fly within "badair" and if your so low to the ground, you can NOT recover from this, I KNOW.... so what it is worth... stay above the pylons and save your aircraft, why task the risk.

Scott

still4given

We have the same rule in RCPRO warbird racing but no one enforces it. I think MDW makes sense. The rule probably does come from three pole. I will bring this up with the RCPRO boards and see what they think. The only danger I really see in flying low is the chance that an evasive maneuver to avoid the ground could put a plane off the course. It will be interesting to see others take on this.

Blessings, Terry

mdwpylonracer42h

Good point Scott.

But I have practiced with some of the best in 3 pole and QMs and I will tell you this. I know at least a couple of people that can fly QMs 5 to 7 feet above ground around 2 and 3 pylon. That is definitely not legal in AMA and I don't know how often they are called on cut for doing so. I will say that it is real awesome to see this, but I know it "bringes" on being real unsafe.

My argument is not for the planes. but for the pilots. If a pilot chooses to fly below the pylons on a 2 pole couse, should the pilot receive a penalty, especially if is not unsafe for the outside participants and spectators for this pilot to do so, just to his plane? So where is the risk at?

I think it is a matter of choice for the participants and the CDs to decide earlier.

ChrisAttebery

My Feedback: (15)

Scott,

At the speeds these things fly bad air is not an issue. We fly so tight that there are usually 2-3 casualties at each event, not from bad air, from bumping into each other.

The other advantage of flying low is that the less experienced/skilled pilots tend to fly higher, so there's less chance of getting caught up in a tangle.

Like I said, if the air is really bumpy I tend to fly a little higher.



Chris

Vendata

Hello pylon flyers, I think its up to the individual wether they fly below the pylons or above them. As all competitors other than the callers & flyers, are off course. I myself fly below the poles & dont have any trouble. At least flying below the poles you know when you cut? We have in New Zealand fly a 3 pole course.

mdwpylonracer42h

Still,

Thanks for your input and in the fact that you state "MDW makes sense".

Again, I don't think that AMA mandates flying above the pylons for the two pole course.

Consequenses if you fly under I think is minimal if there is no one directly on the course as in the three pole course of AMA 422 or F3D, etc.

Thanks,

Mike Walther

luv to race

My Feedback: (1)

Here is another angle of thought...despite the larger risk of crashing, by hitting the pylon.. If you fly below the pylons, you now have to go "around" the pylon. If you fly above the top of the pylons...you can turn on top of the pylon making you course shorter.

There is your tip of the day from the World Champ.

Randy Bridge

Randy Etken

My Feedback: (10)

sooo you do cut!!!!!!

Scorpion Racing

Aww come on Randy E., that fuse is 3.5" thick, and as long as it is over the pylon it is not a cut! So if you fly around the pole and clear the prop you have to be the thickness of the pole plus 4.5" beyond it to clear the 9" prop tips. If you fly over it, you can actually shave off the 4.5", plus the thickness of the pole AND 3.499" without a cut!! (20 * 4.5"+3.499"+1"= 179.98"(14.998')) Sounds like quite a savings over a race to me!!

Seriously, I think Mr. WC is right that it is shorter, and might just save you a plane one day. I try to stay right around the tops unless I just need the extra dive to clear someone around a turn. I have hit a few poles and I always ask myself why I took the chance afterward s. [:@] I think the potential cost outweighs the benefits of flying below the poles.

j.gibson

HEY THANKS for the tip............where do we send the money............

jmg

Jimmy Skids

My Feedback: (2)

In my opinion above is better. I CD a montly series and I've seen quite a few pylon vs. plane mid-airs....... the pylon always wins when plane and pylon meet. At our field the pylons are supported by 3 steel cables and I've seen those hit as well.

Have I flown below, YES, but it is usually to do as Chris stated and avoid traffic. I prefer being out in front and just above the pylon when possilbe.

Skids

ChrisAttebery

My Feedback: (15)

Don't we all?

There are a couple differences between 3 pole and two pole racing that come into play. Since it's a stock class our planes are really well matched. We use a flying start and allow up to 5 planes to fly at the same time. If you all hit the start within a second of each other then there's going to be 5 planes trying to occupy the same spot for at least a lap or two. I've seen races where 2-3 guys are within 10 feet of each other for a good portion of a race.

So, anything you can do to get some separation is a good thing. If you're all neck and neck and you've got 3 planes trying to fly in the preferred 10' just above the pylon then you either have to risk a mid air, fly low or or fly 20' higher than I'd like.

One thing that I think is a real advantage to flying high is that our judges are sitting off to the side of the course. The higher you fly the harder it is for them to judge whether you passed over the pylon or cut inside of it.

skull1971

dnrocc

My Feedback: (3)

Does the 2 Pole have to follow 13.1.11, 13.1.12 and 13.1.13?

If so, it has to follow 13.1.14.

luv to race

My Feedback: (1)

All joking aside… The intent of the rule as written, was certainly to keep the planes above the pylons. On any race course. We may look for the loop holes in the rules which allow us to insert our own interpretation, but AMA’s intent is to keep all pylon racing planes above the pylons. No matter where you stand in reference to the course, and no matter what safety opinion we might have towards this question.

Also… if the AMA rules do not suit two pole racing as well as they do for three pole. I’m sure you could get a class code generated, and write rules to govern that class. Then when you have a interpretation issue with a rule, you submit a rules proposal or change request to have the wording clarified.


Randy Bridge - all tips are free.

dnrocc

My Feedback: (3)

For some reason Section 13.2.1 is missing from the AMA section of the rules posted on their website. It is likely this is where it might say what part of 13.1 applies to 13.2. Someone may need to ask AMA if this section was intentionally omitted from the rules.

Don

dwbebens

Hi All;

I totally agree with ChrisAtterby and "luv to race" on this issue.

Looking at this from a CD who is trying to promote entry level racing for new-to-pylon pilots, I will do anything I can do to minimize carnage. One major source of grief is a pole hit. As was said before, "the pole always wins". Encouraging the pilots to stay above the pylons is very important, especially for the beginners. They don't have the fine control of their planes and the reactions that the more experienced pilots have. Also, they can be easily turned-off pylon racing by a pole hit or mid-air early in their racing "career". And yes, when you are low, there is less room to recover from some form of upset such as a gust, turbulence, etc. The old full scale pilot adage, "the most useless thing to a pilot is altitude above him", applies here also.

And yes, staying high gives you a wider "cone of uncertainty" in the minds of the pylon judges. When you are low, it is very clear whether or not you have cut from the viewpoint of the judges. Sure, you (the pilot) may be able to judge your turn a little better down low, but the judge has less uncertainty, so it's probably a wash from that standpoint.

Here are three items I stress during pilots meetings at races where I am CD.

1. STAY ABOVE THE TOPS OF THE PYLONS

2. Don't slash upward or downward as you make your turns. i.e. STAY LEVEL.

3. When two planes are going into a turn, one behind the other at the same altitude, the trailing plane should change altitude BEFORE entering the turn. The typical scenario is that if the leading plane turns a little long and the trailing planes turns shorter, and if they are at the same altitude, they will be VERY close to each other coming out of the turn. This is the most common mid-air scenario that I see.

Doug Bebensee

skull1971

[sm=pirate.gif]

mdwpylonracer42h

Doug,

Yours is the best post countermeasure to mine, Randy's is a close second. I raised this point of flying below on two pylons because some people really take it to heart and make a bigger deal than others.

Is it unsafe to do so on two poles? I don't think so and this was part of my argument.

Would it intimidate the beginner to see someone balls to the walls at 5' above ground? More than likely it would. If that person can do that consistently and not hit the poles, that would throw a lot of would be beginner racers off. The object of the game is to have fun and clean competition and get more people involved, and do it safely.

From now on, I agree to fly above the poles only for the benifit of making Club 40 a fun and low cost sport to get into for the beginner. I also will say that flying below the flags in cases of avoidance of another plane is permissable.

In other words, consitent flying at least a lap under the poles is grounds for a warning, and further flying below the flags is grounds for a cut. It's real easy for a lot of experienced pilots to do this. Under the poles a 1/2 lap or less to avoid running over others is not grounds for a cut in my book.

Thanks to all who gave a good debate pro and con to this issue. I was looking for good constructive critisism and that's what I got in most cases.


Thanks,


Mike Walther

daven

My Feedback: (1)

Mike,

I agree with your point. If you need to fly below the poles for a lap or two to avoid traffic, that should not be penalized. It is the consistent below the pole flying that should be first warned, then penalized.

I believe it is a safety hazard flying below the poles, not always will a damaged plane crash near the pole. I have seen them hit a pole and go straight up, to the side, and towards the pits. I don't think it matters whether it is 2 or 3 pole racing, below the poles adds a risk that pylon racing as a whole should avoid if possible.

Jimmy Skids

My Feedback: (2)

Very good points made by all! I believe Dave has hit the nail on the head with the last one.

Jimmy Skids

Ken Erickson

As I, too, am working with rank beginners, Doug has written what I would have.

We want new racers all the time. We want them to move up to our form of racing, whatever that mey be. When we want someone to do something that they are not now doing, we must make it as easy, safe and non-threatening as possible.

Ken