CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?
08-29-2009, 12:01 PM
#103
Senior Member
My Feedback: (11)
RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?
ORIGINAL: RCER88
1. NO CD Within 100 miles of where I live that I know of. I am not going to spend thousands of dollars to build one and then not be able to fly it because I can't get a waiver without having to travel a huge distance.
1. NO CD Within 100 miles of where I live that I know of. I am not going to spend thousands of dollars to build one and then not be able to fly it because I can't get a waiver without having to travel a huge distance.
Wow ... my NEAREST club that I fly my turbines at, is approximately 100 miles each way. The other club that I fly at is 210 miles each way. And thats for my "everyday turbine flying" - not for anything special.
As I said before, I think some of us just want to fly turbines badly enough that we are willing to do what it takes. Conversely, some seem to just want to complain if everything doesn't get handed to them on a silver platter. Go figure.
Gordon
08-29-2009, 12:04 PM
#104
RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?
Hi Tony,
Not trying to pick a fight here, but honestly judging from your post...you really have no interest in becoming a turbine pilot. If you don't want to drive 100 miles to get a waiver...I mean...come on. I drive 2,000 miles to fly with friends for a week up in Kentucky. I'll drive 800 miles to fly with some friends up in Jacksonville every other month or so. Judging from your post (and I admit I could be wrong) you honestly would not get a jet anyway.
One item you brought up is your high wing loading experience from flying pattern. Pattern birds are actually light wing loaded. A high wing loaded plane would be like the 53 pound Ziroli Hellcat that I fly. Now that's high wing loading!
You talked about your Kougar being pulse pounding @ 130 MPH. That tells a lot too. Honestly...130MPH is slow...really slow. Besides the Shock Jet, I think everything else goes well past 100MPH. My Bob Cat will hit 190 with little effort...and my Lightning will too. I would honestly say that every jet at Jets over Kentucky 2009 easily exceeded 130 MPH (besides the Shock jets, but they are designed to be slow pokes). Also, there really is a big difference when landing a 6 pound Kougar and say my old Skybanger F-15. Your Kougar weighs 6 pounds and has a 51" wingspan. My F-15 weighed almost 30 pounds at takeoff and has a 55" wingspan. See the difference now?
Anyway, I have my opinion and you have yours. Come on over to a big jet meet one day and hang out for a while...I think you will really like it.
Beave
Not trying to pick a fight here, but honestly judging from your post...you really have no interest in becoming a turbine pilot. If you don't want to drive 100 miles to get a waiver...I mean...come on. I drive 2,000 miles to fly with friends for a week up in Kentucky. I'll drive 800 miles to fly with some friends up in Jacksonville every other month or so. Judging from your post (and I admit I could be wrong) you honestly would not get a jet anyway.
One item you brought up is your high wing loading experience from flying pattern. Pattern birds are actually light wing loaded. A high wing loaded plane would be like the 53 pound Ziroli Hellcat that I fly. Now that's high wing loading!
You talked about your Kougar being pulse pounding @ 130 MPH. That tells a lot too. Honestly...130MPH is slow...really slow. Besides the Shock Jet, I think everything else goes well past 100MPH. My Bob Cat will hit 190 with little effort...and my Lightning will too. I would honestly say that every jet at Jets over Kentucky 2009 easily exceeded 130 MPH (besides the Shock jets, but they are designed to be slow pokes). Also, there really is a big difference when landing a 6 pound Kougar and say my old Skybanger F-15. Your Kougar weighs 6 pounds and has a 51" wingspan. My F-15 weighed almost 30 pounds at takeoff and has a 55" wingspan. See the difference now?
Anyway, I have my opinion and you have yours. Come on over to a big jet meet one day and hang out for a while...I think you will really like it.
Beave
ORIGINAL: RCER88
As I read through this. It just pushes me away from turbines for the following reasons.
1. NO CD Within 100 miles of where I live that I know of. I am not going to spend thousands of dollars to build one and then not be able to fly it because I can't get a waiver without having to travel a huge distance.
2. I have HIGH LOAD high speed multi-channel that fly well over one hundred miles an hour. I have been flying them for years. Pattern/sport planes propped. I had a six pound SIG Kougar that flew a pulse pounding 130mph. A phoenix eight pattern plane with retracts that flew about 120mph. these are both prop driven and powered by sixties.
3. the so called 100 MPH is a joke. I attended an jet event and had a new calibrated radar gun. That day there was only 2 airplanes that flew over 100 MPH and them were both Ducted Fans one flew at the 130mph and the other was 175mph (now that guy could fly he was the only EXPERIENCED pilot there as far as I was concerned His take offs and landings were perfect.). Most flew between 75-85 MPH and bounced on landings or took off before the plane was ready and almost crashed.
4. I watched the skill of the pilots at that event and was shocked at the lack of skill landing the airplanes.
When I read the waiver program from the AMA I got the impression it was two fold.
One pilot skill.
Two safety.
The pilot must have the skill to safely handle a high speed, high wing load, multi channel airplane in flight. This means he can take off and land and fly the airplane in a safe manner. Most old school pattern planes (dirty birdy, UFO, Phoenix series. with a good 60 or 61 and tuned pipe with retracts would qualify to show pilot skill). Most ducted fans should qualify for that too because they fly using the same basic flight characteristics as a turbine. (suck and blow)
The safety issue is to be knowledgeable of flight line safety and protocols for the operation of a turbine and required safety equipment and emergency procedures. Nowhere did I see a turbine had to be used in that Document to achieve the waiver.
So as far as I am concerned the waiver program is a joke as many of the ''SO CALLED'' pilots lack flying skill to begin with. They also seem to be elitist and snobbish just look at these postings. I have more fun with my prop planes and I will soon be flying ducted fans gas and electric. I exceed 100 mph all the time with the planes I currently fly. I can fly high speed, multi-channel, high load aircraft in a safe and fun manner. I have an electric plane that is real close to the 100 mph threshold and it only weighs 2 pounds and cost less than $100.00.
Sure there are many good pilots out there and some will go out of there way to help you achieve your goal. But it is clear to me that some people will refuse to work with a new person no matter what there skill level or knowledge level is. It is easy to see that here on this thread. We are supposed to PROMOTE the hobby not restrict it.
Thanks Tony
As I read through this. It just pushes me away from turbines for the following reasons.
1. NO CD Within 100 miles of where I live that I know of. I am not going to spend thousands of dollars to build one and then not be able to fly it because I can't get a waiver without having to travel a huge distance.
2. I have HIGH LOAD high speed multi-channel that fly well over one hundred miles an hour. I have been flying them for years. Pattern/sport planes propped. I had a six pound SIG Kougar that flew a pulse pounding 130mph. A phoenix eight pattern plane with retracts that flew about 120mph. these are both prop driven and powered by sixties.
3. the so called 100 MPH is a joke. I attended an jet event and had a new calibrated radar gun. That day there was only 2 airplanes that flew over 100 MPH and them were both Ducted Fans one flew at the 130mph and the other was 175mph (now that guy could fly he was the only EXPERIENCED pilot there as far as I was concerned His take offs and landings were perfect.). Most flew between 75-85 MPH and bounced on landings or took off before the plane was ready and almost crashed.
4. I watched the skill of the pilots at that event and was shocked at the lack of skill landing the airplanes.
When I read the waiver program from the AMA I got the impression it was two fold.
One pilot skill.
Two safety.
The pilot must have the skill to safely handle a high speed, high wing load, multi channel airplane in flight. This means he can take off and land and fly the airplane in a safe manner. Most old school pattern planes (dirty birdy, UFO, Phoenix series. with a good 60 or 61 and tuned pipe with retracts would qualify to show pilot skill). Most ducted fans should qualify for that too because they fly using the same basic flight characteristics as a turbine. (suck and blow)
The safety issue is to be knowledgeable of flight line safety and protocols for the operation of a turbine and required safety equipment and emergency procedures. Nowhere did I see a turbine had to be used in that Document to achieve the waiver.
So as far as I am concerned the waiver program is a joke as many of the ''SO CALLED'' pilots lack flying skill to begin with. They also seem to be elitist and snobbish just look at these postings. I have more fun with my prop planes and I will soon be flying ducted fans gas and electric. I exceed 100 mph all the time with the planes I currently fly. I can fly high speed, multi-channel, high load aircraft in a safe and fun manner. I have an electric plane that is real close to the 100 mph threshold and it only weighs 2 pounds and cost less than $100.00.
Sure there are many good pilots out there and some will go out of there way to help you achieve your goal. But it is clear to me that some people will refuse to work with a new person no matter what there skill level or knowledge level is. It is easy to see that here on this thread. We are supposed to PROMOTE the hobby not restrict it.
Thanks Tony
08-29-2009, 12:15 PM
#105
RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?
ORIGINAL: RCER88
.............. the so called 100 MPH is a joke. I attended an jet event and had a new calibrated radar gun. That day there was only 2 airplanes that flew over 100 MPH and them were both Ducted Fans
.............. the so called 100 MPH is a joke. I attended an jet event and had a new calibrated radar gun. That day there was only 2 airplanes that flew over 100 MPH and them were both Ducted Fans
if there were turbines there then they must have all been fomies with the micro 4 pounders on the back, even my old boomer with p-70 easily holds 140 mph flat and level, the Flash has no problem at all getting to 199.995 mph flat and level. granted F-15s and F-18s with ordnance hanging under the wings are draggy but 130-150 is typical speeds even with 120-160 sized turbines.
Gorden, on the missed aproach that 200cc Lancair (and any other prop job) when you firewall it has instant air flow across the control surfaces and they react to control inputs instantly, that just isn't the case with the turbine or ducted fan BUT given the two choices i see your point
08-29-2009, 12:35 PM
#106
Senior Member
My Feedback: (11)
RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?
ORIGINAL: KC36330
Gorden, on the missed aproach that 200cc Lancair (and any other prop job) when you firewall it has instant air flow across the control surfaces and they react to control inputs instantly, that just isn't the case with the turbine or ducted fan BUT given the two choices i see your point
Gorden, on the missed aproach that 200cc Lancair (and any other prop job) when you firewall it has instant air flow across the control surfaces and they react to control inputs instantly, that just isn't the case with the turbine or ducted fan BUT given the two choices i see your point
In the past, I've been approach by people from all sorts of places (I think the furthest away one was on Guam !), for whom bringing their own turbine model to use in the waiver demo is simply not a viable option, so I try to see the issue from all sides and get the right balance. I'm sure I get it wrong at times, but at least I try.
Gordon
08-29-2009, 12:49 PM
#107
RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?
Just curious ... how many people have YOU done the "CD waiver signature" for ? You ARE a CD, right ?
08-29-2009, 12:59 PM
#108
Senior Member
My Feedback: (11)
RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?
ORIGINAL: ira d
No im not.
Just curious ... how many people have YOU done the ''CD waiver signature'' for ? You ARE a CD, right ?
You regularly P&M about the guys who donate their time, and put themselves at risk by signing a piece of paper certifying others as fit to fly turbines.
So, why not spend some of YOUR time to become a CD, and then help all of the other poor guys who are getting screwed by CDs like me ?
Gordon
08-29-2009, 01:17 PM
#109
My Feedback: (25)
RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?
Well would you look at that!! See how they have turned on me!! Let me make some clarifications
1 I am very interested in turbines. I have a Byron's A-4 Skyhawk sitting in the back room right now I wanted a turbine for. I also have a JHH Mirage and Regal Eagle those two are almost done waiting on the final powerplant decision by me. So I do have alot of interest. I was in Detroit for a show and them guys there acted like they wanted nothing to do with me. Maybe because we dispelled their illusion of how fast the airplanes really went because the radar gun did not lie or decieve and took multiple readings on every plane.
2. Sure your 55 inch f-15 jet has more loading than my Kougar but it also has more wing area too. About three-four times as much if my calculations are correct.
3. I have gone all the way to New Mexico to fly with friends so distance sometimes makes no difference. I attended the show in Perry Georgia in March and had a ball. Now those guys were helpful too. Even though it was a swap shop.
4. I have made contact with some guys on turbines here in MI and got no response. So I have that opinion based on my experience thus my current opinion is justified.
5. To the guy that drives one way 100 miles to fly. Good for you! I am disabled and on a fixed income. So I do not have the luxury or cash to drive extended distances on a whim. I have to plan and budget for those type of trips.
6. Safety!! I fly off grass fields and the turbine exhaust is also a concern for me and members of our club and has been discussed. The area I fly is open enough to fly them. Sure many guys do it in parts of the country and good for them. So I have to take that into consideration too. I have been the safety officer for our club.
7. Experience, well I have been flying R/C since 1988 and currently fly three to four days a week weather permitting. I have flown small electrics to quarter scale. I have not flown any "Jets" yet and that is on my "to do list" (learn).
8. As there is a limited number of turbine pilots or cd's in this area it makes it difficult to impossible if guys don't want to respond or help. I work with people everyday at our field as there is always problems or questions. If I do not know the answer I will find out and either call them or send them an email so they have the answer. I don't leave people hanging.
9. I know a guy sitting on over $50,000.00 worth of turbine planes and equipment and cannot even get them test flown because of the lack of a cd or licensed pilot. Why would I want to end up in that same predicament?
So think what you will of me I have experience and seen it firsthand. Are my concerns and observations not valid based on what I actually know and see. Because the truth speaks louder than words.
Tony
1 I am very interested in turbines. I have a Byron's A-4 Skyhawk sitting in the back room right now I wanted a turbine for. I also have a JHH Mirage and Regal Eagle those two are almost done waiting on the final powerplant decision by me. So I do have alot of interest. I was in Detroit for a show and them guys there acted like they wanted nothing to do with me. Maybe because we dispelled their illusion of how fast the airplanes really went because the radar gun did not lie or decieve and took multiple readings on every plane.
2. Sure your 55 inch f-15 jet has more loading than my Kougar but it also has more wing area too. About three-four times as much if my calculations are correct.
3. I have gone all the way to New Mexico to fly with friends so distance sometimes makes no difference. I attended the show in Perry Georgia in March and had a ball. Now those guys were helpful too. Even though it was a swap shop.
4. I have made contact with some guys on turbines here in MI and got no response. So I have that opinion based on my experience thus my current opinion is justified.
5. To the guy that drives one way 100 miles to fly. Good for you! I am disabled and on a fixed income. So I do not have the luxury or cash to drive extended distances on a whim. I have to plan and budget for those type of trips.
6. Safety!! I fly off grass fields and the turbine exhaust is also a concern for me and members of our club and has been discussed. The area I fly is open enough to fly them. Sure many guys do it in parts of the country and good for them. So I have to take that into consideration too. I have been the safety officer for our club.
7. Experience, well I have been flying R/C since 1988 and currently fly three to four days a week weather permitting. I have flown small electrics to quarter scale. I have not flown any "Jets" yet and that is on my "to do list" (learn).
8. As there is a limited number of turbine pilots or cd's in this area it makes it difficult to impossible if guys don't want to respond or help. I work with people everyday at our field as there is always problems or questions. If I do not know the answer I will find out and either call them or send them an email so they have the answer. I don't leave people hanging.
9. I know a guy sitting on over $50,000.00 worth of turbine planes and equipment and cannot even get them test flown because of the lack of a cd or licensed pilot. Why would I want to end up in that same predicament?
So think what you will of me I have experience and seen it firsthand. Are my concerns and observations not valid based on what I actually know and see. Because the truth speaks louder than words.
Tony
08-29-2009, 02:03 PM
#110
Thread Starter
RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?
ORIGINAL: Pete737
The author of this post drove at least an hour, to my place on his dime to check out my setup and has been there to help me ever since.
This type of assistance, as I have found, Is typical of the jet guys. Like I said before, I have never seen anything like it.
Pete
The author of this post drove at least an hour, to my place on his dime to check out my setup and has been there to help me ever since.
This type of assistance, as I have found, Is typical of the jet guys. Like I said before, I have never seen anything like it.
Pete
Thanks Pete!RCER88, Please answer why you think turbine pilots are "snobbish" or "elite"... Just curious.
08-29-2009, 02:19 PM
#112
Thread Starter
RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?
ORIGINAL: RCER88
So as far as I am concerned the waiver program is a joke as many of the ''SO CALLED'' pilots lack flying skill to begin with. They also seem to be elitist and snobbish just look at these postings. Thanks Tony
So as far as I am concerned the waiver program is a joke as many of the ''SO CALLED'' pilots lack flying skill to begin with. They also seem to be elitist and snobbish just look at these postings. Thanks Tony
08-29-2009, 02:27 PM
#113
Thread Starter
RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?
ORIGINAL: RCER88
Read the clarifications I just posted a few minutes ago it explains the reasons why and my experience.
Read the clarifications I just posted a few minutes ago it explains the reasons why and my experience.
... anyway, if you want a waiver for turbines, bring your turbine stuff to a jet meet. As you've read throughout here in the threads EVERY tubine CD will welcome you to test with a turbine. Typically there MANY CD guys to help you at an event, if one seems 'snobbish' go to the next guy, if that one seems a little 'elite' to you... ask another guy.
08-29-2009, 02:29 PM
#114
RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?
Hi Tony,
Sorry you seem to have taken our discussion in such a negative way. You simply brought up some points and a few of us shared our views with you. Honestly, your "tone" seems to give the indication of some pent up anger and bitterness. Followed with your statement that you ran around with a radar gun to prove others wrong really says a lot.
I beg to differ on your conclusion on the wing area of my F-15 to your Kougar. When your engine quits...you easily glide back in like a trainer. When the F-15 engine quits...it comes out of the air like a hammer. Sorry...but I believe you are wrong on that one.
You say you are disabled? Sorry to hear about that...but so am I. Life sucks sometimes. I also am on disability.
You travel to New Mexico and Georgia to fly? That's awesome! It sounds like you had a lot of fun. So, now explain why you find it over the top to maybe travel 100 miles to find a turbine CD?
I fly off of grass too. Actually, one of the fields I fly off of is at a $100,000,000 Polo Facility where the fields are treated like gold. My jets fly well there.
I used to be the Field Safety Chairman of our local club too...howdy Brother! [8D]
We all have experience...some more than others. I've been flying for 35 years and can still get beat by a teenager at an IMAC event. Sucks to be getting old eh?
I'm glad you help others like you say you do...that's great. However, if you really want to get a waiver...find a CD and drop the attitude sir...that's just my opinion.
#9?. Sorry...I simply do not believe that statement.
Anyway, try to drop the anger, put on a smile and come on down to a meet. I think you will enjoy it if you give it a chance.
Beave
Sorry you seem to have taken our discussion in such a negative way. You simply brought up some points and a few of us shared our views with you. Honestly, your "tone" seems to give the indication of some pent up anger and bitterness. Followed with your statement that you ran around with a radar gun to prove others wrong really says a lot.
I beg to differ on your conclusion on the wing area of my F-15 to your Kougar. When your engine quits...you easily glide back in like a trainer. When the F-15 engine quits...it comes out of the air like a hammer. Sorry...but I believe you are wrong on that one.
You say you are disabled? Sorry to hear about that...but so am I. Life sucks sometimes. I also am on disability.
You travel to New Mexico and Georgia to fly? That's awesome! It sounds like you had a lot of fun. So, now explain why you find it over the top to maybe travel 100 miles to find a turbine CD?
I fly off of grass too. Actually, one of the fields I fly off of is at a $100,000,000 Polo Facility where the fields are treated like gold. My jets fly well there.
I used to be the Field Safety Chairman of our local club too...howdy Brother! [8D]
We all have experience...some more than others. I've been flying for 35 years and can still get beat by a teenager at an IMAC event. Sucks to be getting old eh?
I'm glad you help others like you say you do...that's great. However, if you really want to get a waiver...find a CD and drop the attitude sir...that's just my opinion.
#9?. Sorry...I simply do not believe that statement.
Anyway, try to drop the anger, put on a smile and come on down to a meet. I think you will enjoy it if you give it a chance.
Beave
08-29-2009, 02:41 PM
#116
Senior Member
My Feedback: (11)
RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?
ORIGINAL: RCER88
I was in Detroit for a show and them guys there acted like they wanted nothing to do with me. Maybe because we dispelled their illusion of how fast the airplanes really went because the radar gun did not lie or decieve and took multiple readings on every plane.
I was in Detroit for a show and them guys there acted like they wanted nothing to do with me. Maybe because we dispelled their illusion of how fast the airplanes really went because the radar gun did not lie or decieve and took multiple readings on every plane.
Although there are exceptions, in my experience most of the jet guys are like mirrors … they reflect back whatever is shown to them. If you're friendly to them, they'll be friendly back to you ; if you approach them with attitude, they'll show it right back to you.
So, if you don't like the response you get from one turbine guy - no prob's, just go try talking to another. If you don't like the responses you get from several of them, consider whether it's more likely that ALL of them are jerks, or whether maybe it's that you need to make a few adjustments in how you approach potential new friends.
9. I know a guy sitting on over $50,000.00 worth of turbine planes and equipment and cannot even get them test flown because of the lack of a cd or licensed pilot. Why would I want to end up in that same predicament?
Gordon
08-29-2009, 02:50 PM
#117
RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?
Hey Guys!
I have a great idea! Let's go back to arguing the pros and cons about actually having to fly a turbine powered aircraft to get a turbine waiver. I shall now attempt to un-hijack the thread...or hijack the hijacker and steer us back on course.
I say yes...make it so! Change the rules ect! Anything less in my opinion is foolhardy.
Beave
I have a great idea! Let's go back to arguing the pros and cons about actually having to fly a turbine powered aircraft to get a turbine waiver. I shall now attempt to un-hijack the thread...or hijack the hijacker and steer us back on course.
I say yes...make it so! Change the rules ect! Anything less in my opinion is foolhardy.
Beave
08-29-2009, 03:04 PM
#118
Thread Starter
RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?
I wouldn't oppose a change in the rules for 'Turbine Only' waiver testing. As I indicated earlier, I was surprised to learn a prop plane can be used to take the test.
I was concerned about the use of an H-9/ P-51 used to demonstrate flying skills... etc.
... For those of you who may pi$$ and moan about a particular CD requiring a turbine only for testing.......... Why on Earth would you complain???? Your plan is to fly turbines at some point, correct ??
I was concerned about the use of an H-9/ P-51 used to demonstrate flying skills... etc.
... For those of you who may pi$$ and moan about a particular CD requiring a turbine only for testing.......... Why on Earth would you complain
???? Your plan is to fly turbines at some point, correct ??
08-29-2009, 03:12 PM
#119
Join Date: May 2006
Location: East Providence, RI
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RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?
This is the fastest growing thread I have ever seen..
"I was concerned about the use of an H-9/ P-51 used to demonstrate flying skills... etc." Or P-47, Now who would use something like that?[:-]
"I was concerned about the use of an H-9/ P-51 used to demonstrate flying skills... etc." Or P-47, Now who would use something like that?
[:-]
08-29-2009, 03:20 PM
#120
Thread Starter
RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?
ORIGINAL: Pete737
This is the fastest growing thread I have ever seen..
''I was concerned about the use of an H-9/ P-51 used to demonstrate flying skills... etc.'' Or P-47, Now who would use something like that?[:-]
This is the fastest growing thread I have ever seen..
''I was concerned about the use of an H-9/ P-51 used to demonstrate flying skills... etc.'' Or P-47, Now who would use something like that?
[:-]
You had your waiver in the bag as you turned from right base to final approach... never mind the greased landing!
08-29-2009, 03:26 PM
#121
My Feedback: (25)
RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?
I am not angry.
If you see bitterness that is your conclusion I just stated facts as I see them based on my experience I have a very flat way of expressing stuff so it may come off as anger. The radar gun was used because we were doing research on the turbines vs ducted fan. So I could make an informed decision. I went to the Jet rally in detroit, mi it was a few years ago.
At six pounds the kougar flew like a rock. It fell out of the sky when deadstick if you did not drop the nose it would snap in. Your trainer analogy is not a good one. Now my five pound Kougar does float nice. My 4 1/2 pound electric Kougar floats even better.
Well the pilot skill let me address that issue. Practice makes perfect. the more you do something the better you get at it. These pilots were unfamiliar with the plane or lacked experience to keep it from bouncing. Sure I bounce one once in awhile but I have been known to take up a plane and if I am alone in the air just shoot approaches and landings different speeds AOA etc to get the "feel" of the airplane. I do it in different conditions too. there has been comments to that effect at the field. My instructor of twenty years ago was appoached by a newer member I was flying a 22 lb G Shark and asked him. "Why is Tony doing that? Just shooting approaches." His answer "He is learning that airplane and its tendacies." windy days calm days. That is how you learn. But every landing? something is wrong either pilot or plane.
The guy that does not understand my previous comments. I have asked for some help from jet guys locally and got none but i was a long way from home. does that explain it enough. Detroit is over 150 miles away.
As far as number 9. that is the god's honest truth. I know the guy and seen all the planes he has at least 6 ready. I have been to his home and seen them with my own eyes. There is not a single certified turbine pilot in any of the following clubs to my knowledge as I know many members of these clubs. Alger, Midland, Gladwin, Harrison and Bay City. The guy I refer to lives in midland so That is true. That's the closest local clubs.
So to get a waiver will require travel at any rate. But if you ask for help and cannot get it locally then how can you get it? See the dilemna! It is not anger it is frustration!! So I may just have to put a nitro DF in my regal eagle and pack up and go to a Out of state Jet meet to get help. See If I can get a waiver not only will it help me I can help the guy in Midland we can at least test fly his planes. I am not being selfish here I am trying to help fellow modelers and if people know I can fly turbines, then I will help them too. Is that really to much to ask?
Tony
If you see bitterness that is your conclusion I just stated facts as I see them based on my experience I have a very flat way of expressing stuff so it may come off as anger. The radar gun was used because we were doing research on the turbines vs ducted fan. So I could make an informed decision. I went to the Jet rally in detroit, mi it was a few years ago.
At six pounds the kougar flew like a rock. It fell out of the sky when deadstick if you did not drop the nose it would snap in. Your trainer analogy is not a good one. Now my five pound Kougar does float nice. My 4 1/2 pound electric Kougar floats even better.
Well the pilot skill let me address that issue. Practice makes perfect. the more you do something the better you get at it. These pilots were unfamiliar with the plane or lacked experience to keep it from bouncing. Sure I bounce one once in awhile but I have been known to take up a plane and if I am alone in the air just shoot approaches and landings different speeds AOA etc to get the "feel" of the airplane. I do it in different conditions too. there has been comments to that effect at the field. My instructor of twenty years ago was appoached by a newer member I was flying a 22 lb G Shark and asked him. "Why is Tony doing that? Just shooting approaches." His answer "He is learning that airplane and its tendacies." windy days calm days. That is how you learn. But every landing? something is wrong either pilot or plane.
The guy that does not understand my previous comments. I have asked for some help from jet guys locally and got none but i was a long way from home. does that explain it enough. Detroit is over 150 miles away.
As far as number 9. that is the god's honest truth. I know the guy and seen all the planes he has at least 6 ready. I have been to his home and seen them with my own eyes. There is not a single certified turbine pilot in any of the following clubs to my knowledge as I know many members of these clubs. Alger, Midland, Gladwin, Harrison and Bay City. The guy I refer to lives in midland so That is true. That's the closest local clubs.
So to get a waiver will require travel at any rate. But if you ask for help and cannot get it locally then how can you get it? See the dilemna! It is not anger it is frustration!! So I may just have to put a nitro DF in my regal eagle and pack up and go to a Out of state Jet meet to get help. See If I can get a waiver not only will it help me I can help the guy in Midland we can at least test fly his planes. I am not being selfish here I am trying to help fellow modelers and if people know I can fly turbines, then I will help them too. Is that really to much to ask?
Tony
08-29-2009, 05:38 PM
#122
Senior Member
My Feedback: (6)
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Spring Lake,
MI
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RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?
Tony,
Looks like there's a need for more turbine pilots and CD's in the thumb area of Michigan. Unfortunately I'm about 3 hours away, but I'ld be glad to help anyway I could.
I know there are some turbine pilots that fly closer to you than those in the metro Detroit area. If you haven't contacted those waiver holders that are closer to you, I'ld recommend that you do. I'm sure they would be happy to work with you if you could arrange mutually acceptable dates and places to meet. I know a handful fly at the Sandusky airport. I used to fly there occasionally (when I lived on the east side).
The Flying Pilgrims in Canton, MI are having their fun fly Sept 11-13th. There are at least a half dozen turbine guys that will be at that event.
PM me if you want more info or thoughts on how to best proceed. We'ld love to have you get your turbine waiver and enjoy an awesome aspect of this hobby! And then assist others in your area to do the same . . .
Regards,
Art Gajewski
Looks like there's a need for more turbine pilots and CD's in the thumb area of Michigan. Unfortunately I'm about 3 hours away, but I'ld be glad to help anyway I could.
I know there are some turbine pilots that fly closer to you than those in the metro Detroit area. If you haven't contacted those waiver holders that are closer to you, I'ld recommend that you do. I'm sure they would be happy to work with you if you could arrange mutually acceptable dates and places to meet. I know a handful fly at the Sandusky airport. I used to fly there occasionally (when I lived on the east side).
The Flying Pilgrims in Canton, MI are having their fun fly Sept 11-13th. There are at least a half dozen turbine guys that will be at that event.
PM me if you want more info or thoughts on how to best proceed. We'ld love to have you get your turbine waiver and enjoy an awesome aspect of this hobby! And then assist others in your area to do the same . . .
Regards,
Art Gajewski
08-29-2009, 05:55 PM
#123
RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?
I think that if you spend a lot of time finding reasons why you cannot fly jets then you never will.
Likewise, there are guys who would give their left nut to make it happen. They are the regulars
in this forum. - John.
Likewise, there are guys who would give their left nut to make it happen. They are the regulars
in this forum. - John.
08-29-2009, 06:00 PM
#124
My Feedback: (48)
RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?
Tony,
I'm surprised at some of your comments. I'd be interested in knowing who you talked to at the "Jet rally in detroit" and when. The only jet event in the area is Michigan Jets and as one of the event organizers I have been actively involved in each one since we started 10 years ago. I don't recall an incident involving a radar gun. Did you bring one and want to use it? Speed runs are discouraged at these events for safety reasons. If there was a misunderstanding that doesn't mean we are all snobs or elitists. You can PM me the details if you wish.
I've found the jet guys in the area to be a great bunch of guys and very willing to help. If you look at Document #510-M on the AMA website you will find 42 turbine waiver holders (including one in Midland) and 10 CD's in Michigan. You should be able to find someone who can help you. In my club we currently have 12 waiver holders. Newcomers are welcomed, and in the last two years the number of waiver holders in the club has doubled.
If your buddy in Midland wants to bring some of his jets down I'm sure we can find someone to test fly them for him.
If you'd like to meet some of the jet guys in the area you might want to attend our fall airshow in two weeks. It's a giant scale event but there will be a number of jets there as well. See attached flyer.
Joe
I'm surprised at some of your comments. I'd be interested in knowing who you talked to at the "Jet rally in detroit" and when. The only jet event in the area is Michigan Jets and as one of the event organizers I have been actively involved in each one since we started 10 years ago. I don't recall an incident involving a radar gun. Did you bring one and want to use it? Speed runs are discouraged at these events for safety reasons. If there was a misunderstanding that doesn't mean we are all snobs or elitists. You can PM me the details if you wish.
I've found the jet guys in the area to be a great bunch of guys and very willing to help. If you look at Document #510-M on the AMA website you will find 42 turbine waiver holders (including one in Midland) and 10 CD's in Michigan. You should be able to find someone who can help you. In my club we currently have 12 waiver holders. Newcomers are welcomed, and in the last two years the number of waiver holders in the club has doubled.
If your buddy in Midland wants to bring some of his jets down I'm sure we can find someone to test fly them for him.
If you'd like to meet some of the jet guys in the area you might want to attend our fall airshow in two weeks. It's a giant scale event but there will be a number of jets there as well. See attached flyer.
Joe
08-29-2009, 08:36 PM
#125
RE: CD Waiver Sign-off... The Best Propeller Plane for the Test?
dang i hate I'm getting here late but i had 10g of kerosene i was afraid would go bad if i let it sit till tomorrow
I've got a Jet Legend F-15, just did the math, it's got 570 sq-in of wing are, that's 30 sq-in more then the Sig Cougar at 540 sq-in. the 6lb Cougar has a wing loading of 25.6 oz/sq-ft, the F-15 112oz/sq-ft (that's dry weight, didn't figure in the 160oz of fuel), the F-15 is one heck of a draggy airframe so if you can't get a cougar at 6 lbs to glide 10-1 better then the F-15.........you're not even close to ready for a qualification flight.
also anyone with 50K invested in turbines and can't get anyone to help him out, with that sort of investment he should be able to afford to take a week and drive down to my neck of the woods, I'm retired so I'm free every day and can work with him/her to get them ready to take and pass the qualification flight.
I've got a Jet Legend F-15, just did the math, it's got 570 sq-in of wing are, that's 30 sq-in more then the Sig Cougar at 540 sq-in. the 6lb Cougar has a wing loading of 25.6 oz/sq-ft, the F-15 112oz/sq-ft (that's dry weight, didn't figure in the 160oz of fuel), the F-15 is one heck of a draggy airframe so if you can't get a cougar at 6 lbs to glide 10-1 better then the F-15.........you're not even close to ready for a qualification flight.
also anyone with 50K invested in turbines and can't get anyone to help him out, with that sort of investment he should be able to afford to take a week and drive down to my neck of the woods, I'm retired so I'm free every day and can work with him/her to get them ready to take and pass the qualification flight.