bob_romijn

It was late last night when I posted this. I made a typo:
- 150-175: 0
- 175-200: up to 1 point
- 200-225: up to 2 points
etc.

This is really how it works and the sporting code supports that. This is how the judges are trained. It was more to give an example because there is of course more. I am convinced that also the pilots should know about this so they can make there decision of how to fly.

Now the trick comes here:

If you decide to fly the schedule on 150 meter, the possibility of flying outside of the box is higher. Of course we are more gentle to the "nearby outs", but still it will cost you at least 1 point. Of course also your lines will be shorter which doesn't look very gracefull. Gracefull and smooth is also something you can deduct points for. Also the fact that you fly nearby and the judges can see every error doesn't help. Having said that, it is very well possible someone can fly further away and have better scores without any problem.
Only the distance is not a criterium to set the order of pilots (luckily not).
Of course I'm in the position that the judges are doing quit a good job. Not saying we can't improve, but this kind of conversations are always taking place in judging-sports, doesn't matter whether it horse riding, figure scating etc. If you can't stand that, do racing, horse juming etc.

The biggest problem I have is with the 1000-rule. This way you can influence the scores of other pilots too much which is wrong in my view. The pilots have already proven to fly the F schedule well, because they are in the final. Who is the best WC: the one that can fly at least 1 F good and 2 Unknowns. And get rid of the 1000-rules, just points. Then the pilot gets what he deserves.

Freddy

My Feedback: (3)

I have flown and competed in three worlds. I am far from the best but do recognize the errors etc. I have been in pattern since 1979. Hey I was rock solid bottom and 99th in Portugal. Here is how I saw it:
1 See my last comment in the other worlds link.
2 QQ and Jason and Chad got somewhat robbed...deserved higher placing. Maybe Mayer also but he did have some small errors in the end.
3 The judging seems as follows, the back group gets overly severely hammered for mistakes, the middle group correctly, and the top 10-20 has some halo fliers. Halo lives on and will always be there.
4 I agree with the ausies that it is frustrating to spend all this money and effort and see unfair judging at a wc level.
5 We need more judges from the americas, and less from europe. The US team did very well and I comment them for being political and good sportsman, but they deserved better.
6 I do not like the new team placing rules. Makes no sense as it does not put all teams on the same playing field. We need to go back to the old format counting only the prelims.
7 I am glad though to see YS on top! A real airplane has an engine in it!

macleote

it's weird, I do not remember the championship in Argentina has been criticized as much as that of Portugal...

David Bathe

Indeed... it's a funny old thread.
But it is important to point out that the entire judging and scoring system is scientifically designed to specifically eliminate all but the worthy.[8D]

artistic-aero

Ugh, its awful all this 'Europe' and us stuff. Like being oin the same continent somehow gives you a 'home advantage'? (Said some place else in RCU). I'm sure the comments from the actual competitors, although diplomatic will not go as far as to accuse each other of of being favoured. Europe is a vast and varied place, so would be nice to be treated as the different countries that it is. Some of which spawned other continents... The judges seem pretty hurt at the accusations and no doubt the Podium Flyers will also. Shame.

brandon ransley

Its an interesting situation. Just to put it into perspective I was not at Portugal. I have flown at the WC in 95,99,01,05 and EC in 96,98,00,02,04. I fly very little now but do compete at the odd UK contest and an occasional international. The great advantage of being in Europe is that you can easily get to contests in other countries. I was ok but not finals quality. I made the semis in 01,02,04 and 05 with my best results being 13 in Europe and 26 in Worlds. In WC 01 in Ireland I placed 8th in one round - but that is the strange thing in these contests - it was my 4th flight of the prelims and so I was up against some pilots who had flown 1, 2 or 3 days before - they may have been flying in a gale - I was not. So that just puts it in perspective.

First, none of the US pilots have made a comment - a dignified silence.

I am not sure that anyone is arguing against a CPLR victory. Is it a fluke or wrong that the guy who has won the WC in 99,01,03,05 and was 2nd in 07 (by all accounts he would probably have won it if he had not had an e/c - but he did so that is tough) also won in 09?

The US folks should not get into thinking that all European judges will favour a European pilot over a non Euro competitor. Naruke won in 97 in Poland. And remember that at EC (European Champs) if the contest is in say Switzerland they will favour judges from Switzerland, Germany, Austria, Liechtenstein, mayby Italy each of whom may be more aligned (I am not saying biased) to their style than the French, Belgian judges who might be aligned to the French style.

CPLR has won in USA 99, Ireland 01, Poland 03, France 05 and Portugal 09 - the first and hardest WC was in the back yard of the USA. In the final in 99 the competitors had 3 flights. From memory CPLR flew 3 different styles - smallish, medium and large and won each flight. Using his B model!!!! Because on the practice day before the final his fuel tank had burst on his A model and melted the foam wings!!

I went to a conference once by a sports psychologist/coach (he had trained the British athletics team, Boris Becker - the German tennis player, Daley Thompson - British olympic gold decathlete, the Ferrari Formula 1 team) and the thing that sticks in my mind is the following comment he made. He said "A lot of people think that the difference between winning and losing is huge. It's not! The difference between winning and losing is tiny. The consequences are huge!" Just think about it. If I said which US swimmer won 7 golds in the 2008 Beijing olympics I bet most of you would know. Anyone tell me a swimmer who came second in ANY of those races without looking on the internet? Even if I told you they lost by only 1/100ths of a second!!

If you look at the finals in Pombal 2009 QQ beat Benoit PLR on the first 3 rounds of the final - it was only that amazing 4th round ( I was not there but some people have said that it was like watching C (not B)PLR fly) that BPLR overtook QQ. In fact Schulman and Onda were ahead of BPLR having beaten him in rounds 1,2 and 3 of the final. The guy just had an amazing Unknown 2 flight and it lifted him to 2nd place. Will he do it again - probably not (altho' a lot of people in Europe say that if Benoit bothered to practice like Christophe he could be better than him).

So don't knock the judges or the pilots or anything. It seems that Benoit had a blinder and came up from way down to 2nd place.

Look at Gerhard Mayr - a relative unknown but what a flyer. Very different style from all the others - smaller slower schedule with SOOOO much control - I saw him at Romilly in France. In Pombal 2009 he came from nowhere after rounds 1-3 of the final and scored a 992 in round 4.

Why were there little or no comments on RCU after the WC 2007 moaning about the judging etc etc? Maybe it was because the USA had the winning pilot and the 2nd place team - not a lot to moan about. You came second by about 8 points out of 8600!! Less than 1%. The differnce between winning and losing is tiny - the consequences are HUGE!!

A few other points

1 The aim of the WC is to find the best pilot in the world. I am afraid that if you are in the "grey" mass outside the top 40 you are unlikely to get in the semis. You have one flight a day over 4 days. You could be in perfect conditions on day one and a hurricane in day 4. You may have your engine cut on the perfect day. that is life and is just tough. But if you were in the top 10 you would still be good enough to get in the top 30 and the semis. The pilots between 20 and 40 - well it is a bit of a lottery if you get in the top 30. Conditions may go against you. Or CPLR may have a mega flight when you have your best flight so your normaalised score is still low etc. As for the top 20 they are usually good enough to make sure they get in the top 30 and the semis.

2 The best 7 or 8 will get in the final. 2 or 3 out of the next 5 or 6 will get the next few places. But you are looking for the best pilot or top 3 in reality and you can be pretty sure that they are in the top 10 and in the final.

4 Why start afresh? Well it is so that the judges see all 10 pilots in a short period of time - all 10 within a 2 hour period. It makes for much better comparisons and judging I think (better than spread over 4 days!!). And it makes a VERY exciting contest.

5 Why only count 2 flights? People DO have the odd mechanical problem and we are looking for the best pilot. It would be unfortunate to lose a WC or EC because of an e/c or an aileron servo going faulty. I think it is fair and as you have seen it can throw up dramatic finals as we saw this year with Benoit and Mayr (and with the French beating the Japanese).

6 Why have normalisation? Surely it is essential. We saw in Portugal a very "hard" judging panel scoring lower than all other panels. Without normalisation it is possible a large proportion of their scores would have been dropped - which is wrong. You could see a situation where a pilot with his best flight wins that round but beciause they are such a hard panel he has to drop that flight - ludicrous!

7 Just have a look at the finals from Pombal - before round 4 of the final QQ was in 3rd place behind CPLR and Onda. It seems that QQ had a poor UK2 schedule and some others had a great UK 2 and overtook him. Fine margins.

So, I was not there. My observations are made from a distance and based on previous experiences.

But from what I see there can be no accusation of inaccurate judging and no USA pilot has made such an allegation - to their credit.

Roll on WC 2011 in the USA!!

Brandon

JAS

My Feedback: (2)

I have nothing against my placing this year. I didn't fly up to my standards or personal expectations. I also did not watch everyone else fly so I can't comment on much. For me personally, I was both happy and sad with my placing. I was happy to have been 6th for the flying that I did, but I was sad for the flying that I did, knowing I could have flown (therefor placed) better. I've got one year to get my head on straight, then another year after that to keep it on straight. I am really embarrassed about my flying in Portugal and will make sure it does not happen again. No excuses here.

There are some things that puzzled me as some downgrades were not applied per the rulebook, but such is competition. It wasn't all the time either mind you, but there were some flights that I did watch that left me wondering. And 'watching' one of my flights, and seeing my score, I was also left wondering... how I scored so well...lol. I guess I am harder on my flying than anyone else.

You watch, you adjust, you win... you watch, you don't adjust, you lose...

Regardless of any internet issues, Portugal was filled with great memories, lots of fun and of course some disappointment. We can't all be winners... but we can all have fun.

twoturnspin

Hi Brandon, thank you for your comments. Well thought out, accurate and thought provoking. Clearly you have a great deal of experience at major events and I appreciated your thinking. I do however take issue with your comment "there can be no accusation of inaccurate judging" although I wouldn't use the term inaccurate, rather the rules for F3A did not seem to me to be applied in accordance with the rules as they are written. As I mentioned in my earlier post (#4) I was only in Pombal for the Finals, I do not suggest that the results were rigged towards any continent or flier but was unpleasently surprised by the resulting raw scores of manouvres I witnessed and some of the processes that were undertaken. My issues were twofold:

1. Noise Testing. The noise meter tests were inconsistently applied (as detailed in my earlier posts) and I could not see how anyone could see them as being an accurate or a decent assessment. A minor issue, but in my view, if you have a test in any competition either do it properly or don't do the test. Surely at a WC this is something that should be done consistently?

2. Scoring of Manouvres. The application of downgrades in F3A is a combination of science (ie. 1 pt per 15 degrees) and art (ie. smoothness, gracefulness) and purely looking at the "science" type downgrades I struggled to see a relationship between what I watched being flown and some of the scores that were awarded. I noted one specific manouvre in my previous post but further to this there were other things that I noted. Staff Turns were a classic, the rules for this are very clear but I watched many fliers powering through the manouvres with the result that their c of g shifted more than 2 wing spans - a wing over - and yet they scored well. Happy for feedback on this as I would love to understand this better if I have misunderstood or if someone else who who was there saw something different to me. The other area was box violations, they happened and did not get downgraded based on the % they were out of the box. This happened on a number of occasions on the left hand side of Unknown 1. (A bunch of guys also went out of the top of the box in Unknown 2 but I did not see those individual scores so I don't know if they were downgraded but they did well in the round.)

I have no axe to grind here, just responding to a guy asking for perspectives of those who attended the event, I tried to do this as honestly as I could in the interests of better understanding how F3A should be judged. No one has refuted what I have said just a PM and some other guys privately telling me "you're right but that's just how it is", a bit sad in my view as it perpetuates a system that could be improved (and therefore should be improved). As you mentioned, the difference between first place and ending up down the list is very small, surely then we should be working to ensure that judges are accurately enforcing the rules as they are written?

All the best, Simon

brandon ransley

Simon

Apologies. I think you are correct. Inaccurate was the wrong word - I probably should have said the judging was probably not biased intentionally. And in any event TBL is meant to remove any bias.

There is a halo factor even if unintentional. I also think the judge analysis tempts judges to try and conform to what they think will be the norm rather than judging what they see. Some judges want to be right in the middle of the average and this can lead to "safe" judging. So they give high marks to known top flyers or maybe the "benefit of doubt" to them. But those top flyers need to get there first - Mayr, Seba etc have made it to the top. You could argue that there was no halo factor as the World Champion came 7th - is that not an argument that there was no halo factor.

Anyway it is a subjective view - the same with diving, figure skating etc. the alternative is pylon racing or control line combat.

And the main point is to njoy it - and if you don't stop!!

Jason - thank you for your honesty and congrats on your placing.

Brandon

Brenner

Seems to me that a lot of people are expressing concerns here, and rightly or wrongly, I'm thinking that all comments and expressions of concern should be considered and judged with an open mind, and if any of the aforementioned concerns have merit, I think that the FAI would benefit from listening, and responding, in some sort of favorable manner. If not, then pattern flying as a sport can only suffer as a result.

Taken to an extreme, there might even be a risk that the World Championships would end up being more of a regional championship than a world championship, and that competing championships would sprout up in other parts of the world. We could maybe find ourselves with a European championship, an Asian championship, and an Americas championship, with different sets of rules, and styles for each region. I can't imagine that the FAI would welcome any of this, and consequently I would expect them to be highly motivated to address concerns, and make changes if needed.

Given this, and without making any judgments as to merit, I see the following concerns being raised:

1/.. Inconsistent interpretation of the FAI rulebook
2/.. Inconsistent judging of maneuvers from pilot to pilot.
3/.. Regional bias
4/.. Inconsistent standards for participating judges
5/.. A system that encourages judges to try and anticipate how other judges are going to score a pilot and/or a maneuver.
6/.. No checks and balances that watch for judging bias

There's probably more stuff, but I'm too lazy to go back and read every post. Anyway, my point is that rather than debate whether any of this stuff is true or not, in the interests of maintaing and adding credibility to the sport, why don't we try to come up with some ideas that would mitigate each of these concerns without considering whether they are right or wrong.

MAVROS

Guys stop moaning......CPLR won because of that thinky meejib on top of his fuselage distructing the judges.
Dont want to be smart byt how do you tell if your heading is out by 15 degrees !!!!!

kind regards to all

MAVROS
AUSTRALIA

Jeff Boyd 2

Don't want to be smart, Mavros . . but look at a protractor. It's a lot, and certainly visible to the judges eye . .

Cheers, JB

tIANci

I thought the judges should be able to tell if its out by 15 degrees, is that not why they get to sit on those nice comfy chairs?

Rendegade

even 5 degrees is noticable.

Here's a little bit of a guide.

Jeff Boyd 2

That's an awesome guide . . I am going to print it off for our judging sessions. Thanks . .

Cheers, JB

David Bathe

15deg is an ENORMOUS amount to be out of line... that's my type of deviation... on a good day!Are you sure that some of the best pilots in the world where out as much as 15 deg or was that just a number...meaning slightly out of line as it appears from your view point?As stated by someone else earlier on, it's all an illusion... corrections (in some cases big) being made to correct certain conditions, obvious from one view point, yet at the same time, hidden from another, ie the judges. Anyway, I'd be well chuffed with only 15 degrees... but these guys?Can't be...can it.

Magne

I have yet to see a knife edge climbing or diving at 15 degrees score a 9, which it should, according to these rules.

Magne

apereira

As the interpretation goes, I do not understand the discussion here now, if it is about all the pilots that are not in the top 30 being punished harder by the judges? Then maybe, I usually think I'm flying well just to see how judges think otherwise, so I got one of my team mates to film my flights, I was originally mad at certain results, but when I saw the video it was clear to me.

I think every pilot should see his flights on video, and maybe compare to one of the top pilots, then get a personal evaluation.

I talked to one of the judges in Portugal and he commented that CPLR was one of the very few that got every maneuver in perfect positioning on the box, and in Portugal he told us that positioning was the most important factor, so, if CPLR was 15 off or not, well, those 15deg could be the observer position offset, I really doubt that having the flags the top pilots will pass it, but the judges were checking especially that.

When we were flying last year in Colombia in the South America F3A Open, we all could place ourselves behind Jason Shulman and watch his flight from the pilots view, he never flew out of the box and made it looks so easy.

Judges make a lot of mistakes, but also judges are the first excuse to all the pilots, so I'm going to practice really hard this year, and I will make my flights better, it has to pay off with the Judges, I cannot complaint at Portugal, I did not do good and specially when I saw the video [sm=red_smile.gif].

twoturnspin

Hi Apereira, the discussion here has not been about fliers outside the top 30 being judged more harshly rather it has been to respond to a request from MUPS for some personal observations about the event. A bunch of guys have tried to do that. I am surprised that the judge you spoke to said that CPLR was "one of the few that got every maneuver in perfect positioning on the box" my observations were that CPLR and a number of the others were flying well beyond 175m so I'm not sure how he could say that. Additionally the tall manouvres had to beyond the 60 degree vertical line (the Square 8 in Unk 2 comes to mind) they were just incredibly high and did not seem to be penalised.

Did you watch the finals, are you able to comment on these points? Did you think the Stall Turns you observed pivoted on the C of G? More than happy for you to contradict me if you saw it another way. I'm sincerely keen to understand the logic in judging at this level, as I mentioned in earlier posts I couldn't see how the scores were allocated based on the F3A guide.

mups53

My Feedback: (41)

Hey guys this thread has turned out to be more interesting to me than expected. I've learned a lot from it and all the posts have been appreciated.

President Obama spoke at the UN today and made this statement.

"Obama said he will never apologize for defending U.S. interests. But he sought to dispel what he said has become "an almost reflexive anti-Americanism" that has swept the globe."

Question I have for you guys from around the world is this. Does US policy in foreign lands and our high profile have a negative effect on our flyers? Is there a carry over that prompts some to call us cry babies? No answer is wrong if it's heartfelt. I'm just trying to understand so I can handle it better. If so what would you do if you were a team member and you felt a sense of this.
Note I'm not saying this went on at the Worlds but I'd like your perspective if you think teams are attatched to the perceptions and policy's of its people and governments?

I just want to get an honest perspective and opinion from the people who were there and could take the time to do so. To the posters that shared there experience thanks you gave me the glimpse that I really needed. Thanks, Mike

apereira

Hello twoturnspin and Mike,

Yes, I watched the finals and semi finals, on the stall turns, yes, they looked like wing-overs to me too, but I was watching the flight with Tuny and he noticed the airplane was going up and down on the same line, so on the next stall turn that CPLR did, I set the line with my finger, an to my surprise even though it looked like it was not turning on the CG the airplane came down on the very same vertical line, it was very windy, so maybe that played a trick on us, but when I saw that I stand corrected it was a good stall turn, maybe the smoke might make it look like a wing-over, or maybe the judges were kooking at the lines more than the maneuver.

He was flying pretty big, but I don't think it was out, the thing id, the judges are not measuring those angles to an exact and perfect point, I think is difficult to exactly appreciate the exact size of the box an evaluate the maneuver at the same time.

In my mind the first place was well deserved, and the other thing will be to see if the judges maintained the same criteria for all the pilots in the finals, I think it was pretty good, might say I was convinced that QQ was going to be on the podium, but I was wrong.

Maybe it will be a good practice for all of us to get score people on the top, and then compare our score with the judges when they become available, that could give us a better idea, as we think too many things doing one flight and have many opinions, whether the judges do not, once one mover ends they score it and and forget it ever existed.

The other important point is, if a judge tells me he was perfect on the box, no matter what we think they already established their criteria and everybody else will get compared t him.

About the USA being affected by international politics, I really don't think so, the USA team is one of the best and they are all greatly admired, if it gets down to politics, I can assure you WE are f......d. I don't think that matters, but I do think there is a different criteria for European pilots than those from other continents, as the Europeans give better treatment to their judges all the time, not just in the worlds, and I think that pays back.

Best regards

David Bathe

Quote:

ORIGINAL: mups53

Does US policy in foreign lands and our high profile have a negative effect

Certainly!

On your pilots? Certainly not, crazy to consider it would.
It's a group of great guys from around the world flying model planes, not Geo politics.

Quote:

ORIGINAL: mups53
Is there a carry over that prompts some to call us cry babies?

Certainly not, there's been a great deal of crying without any prompting from anyone off shore.

Conclusion, it just wasn't the US's day. JAS post above tells why.
In a couple of years, maybe it'll be different, maybe not. Everybody'll have a great time regardless.

With reference to Obama' Anti American statement.

True, but why is that? I've had many GREAT experiences in the US and have many friends. But what is it that's rattled so many peoples cages? Don't know... but the tone (non intentional) of this thread suggests something exists... and it's home grown. Here we have people beating up theforeigners, looking for people to blame, suggesting people cheated, or where given or allowed privileges because of nationality, personal favour or whatever instead of celebrating the French brothers, applauding the Japanese team, marvelling at the Germans, admirering the Italians, clapping the Norwegians etc etc.
It's not about you... it's about us all!

JAS

My Feedback: (2)