Salty25

My Feedback: (9)

I have my Saito 180 flying an old H9 Edge. I've had it a few years now, bought it from a guy when I was living down south.

It has always ran well for me; just like my 150 GK, rest its soul, and my 72. But recently it seemed to be running a little rough. I thought it just needed some tweaking on the needle setting.

Well, last weekend I noticed there was some black oil coming out of the exhaust. No, I didn't run it lean I always keep it running with plenty of smoke. I noticed that while running the engine up on the ground there was a lot of black stuff getting on my shoes. I'm use to getting oil on my shoes when I fly from running up my engines.

Well, I did some research on here and found things from broken springs to possible bad bearings as the cause for the black oil. So I took the engine apart to see what was what.

The inside of the crankcase was clean, some oil residue but nothing worn from metal rubbing in the wrong place and no black oil residue. Oh yeah, it wasn't coming out of the crank breather just the exhaust.

Looked in the exhaust port of the head and there was some black carbon build up; the intake was clean of course.

Took the head off and looked at the valves. The exhaust one was also black but the intake was again clean. There was a single spot of black residue on the piston head, dead center around where the glow plug is.

On the edge of the piston there is again black buildup on the exhaust side but not on the intake side.

I would think the black buildup would be all around the piston and not just on the exhaust side. I can understand the intake valve being clean, on the outside of the cylinder but not on the inside.

Any ideas before my gasket set arrives so I can put it back together?

Thanks for any and all help.

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

You changed fuel, ran it different or something like that and loosened up some carbon

Salty25

My Feedback: (9)

I've been running the same fuel in it for years now. I've always used 15%, as I do in all my engines. Think I'll put in a new plug and run it on the bench for a little bit before putting it back in the air.

estradajae

Muffler Loose? black oil comes also from alu against alu...what kind of muffler do you have there?

daveopam

My Feedback: (9)

I would also look to the muffler. Maybe the baffle.

David

Salty25

My Feedback: (9)

Muffler was tight. And again I didn't see any black oil inside the engine; just the slight carbon around the exhaust valve and a tiny bit on the piston.

That's pretty much what I read was the black oil comes from aluminum rubbing but no signs of rubbing or significant wear. I'll break open the muffler and see what's going on inside of there.

It's the stock muffler; looks pretty much like the other Saito mufflers. I have the muffler from my old 150GK, was running a flex pipe on it, but don't think it will fit. The threads look larger on the 180, but that's just eyeballing it at double arm length.

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

They are supposed to be the same

JohnMcGowan

My Feedback: (15)

Salty, Ive got a 150 and a 180 with the 150 being quite a bit older.. The last time I flew the 150 (about a year and a half ago), I had some of the same running problems you describe.. it just ran rough. So I tried tweeking the needles some but it made no difference. I finally found that my front bearing, altho it was still turning smooth , was sucking air causing it to run rough. Im not saying thats whats going on with yours, its just a thought. I had purchased my 150 used thats on a big 1/3 scale spacewalker and it had sat a year or so before I fired it off. Its on C-H ignition... I need to put some bearings in that puppy and fly her again!!
Good luck with yours... these are some strong engines!
John

Salty25

My Feedback: (9)

Yes, the 150 and the 180 are strong running engines. I really enjoyed my 150 on the CAP; lost it over a year ago when the wing folded in flight.

The 180 gets the Edge in the air with very little roll out. I'm actually considering putting it on another plane and would like to get it running better.

How did you determine it was the front bearing leaking air? I would think that would make it run lean, with too much air going in. I have been getting a good smoke trail when it's running. Actually that is one of the indicators it was running rough; I would see a break in the trail then hear the engine start to sputter. You know with the distance sound travels slower then light and all; the physics stuff. We'll save that conversation for another forum.

A few months ago my 72 was running a little rough and I took it apart. Couldn't find anything and it ran great when I put it back togethor. Maybe they just want to feel loved and taken apart every now and then.

LuvBipes

My Feedback: (4)

Salty, I had a 91 that did that. Turned out to be the screws on one of the rocker arm assemblies was loose. The loose steel screws moving in their holes wallowed out the holes in the aluminum head (explains the black residue). On the 91 this is a problem, because the whole deal is an integral part of the head, thus requiring a new one!!

Horizon, was great. Tho the engine was out of warranty, they responded to my letter explaining the situation and repaired the engine for a nominal fee.

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

The crankcase leaking air through a bearing seal may make the engine messy on the outside but has no effect on how the engine actually runs

Salty25

My Feedback: (9)

Well, I'm going to wait for my gasket set to arrive and put it back together and see how it runs on the stand. I thought it would be here today but maybe tomorrow when the mail lady comes by.

Luvbipes, the rocker screws were tight. In fact I was thinking maybe a valve or something. But the thing is hard to turn over by hand with the valves closed and the plug installed. The 180 has a removable plate that the rocker mounts on. I took it off and checked just to be sure.

w8ye, the engine is clean. The only outside leak is the exhaust rocker cover gasket. I'm going to get at that area with an old toothbrush and see about cleaning it up.

Salty25

My Feedback: (9)

I took of couple of pictures of the cylinder and muffler. The muffler from the 150 does fit the 180. However, the 180 muffler is built like a two stroker muffler, it comes apart. The muffler for the 150 is one piece; except for coming apart from the elbow. But basically the end cap is the baffle.

The valve on the left is the exhaust and you can see the slight carbon I was seeing. On the outside pic you can also see the the residue from the leak on the exhaust valve cover; that is the side that was down of course. And... the muffler; from the leaking oil from the vavle cover over time.

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

Things look rather normal. That muffler is proabably 4 or 5 yrs old

estradajae

What does the pin hole in the muffler??

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

Looks like it was to retain an extension

mike early

Maybe it is crud going through the carburetor that is making the intermittent miss. The exhaust gasses enter into the fuel tank and every now and then there's a sliver of carbon.
Do you have an in-line fuel filter before your carb?

Salty25

My Feedback: (9)

The pin hole on the muffler is to retain an extension. It has been there for as long as I have had the engine on this plane.

Yes I run a filter before the carb. I also filter the fuel as it come out of the bottle. So the fuel goes through two filters before it gets to the carb; one out of the bottle and one before it gets to the carb. And no the fuel does not go through both filters as it goes into the tank. The second filter is on a separate line from the fill tubing.

pencon

So basically theres nothing wrong with it , put it back together and fly it.

Salty25

My Feedback: (9)

I'm going to, the gasket set never showed up. I got in touch with my LHS, which isn't that local by the way, they have one and I'm going to pick it up Friday. It's an hour drive to get there so I don't just drop in and say hello.

Should be able to run it by Saturday.

Hobbsy

My Feedback: (102)

An hour, that's right next door compared to my LHS, its 365 miles. As Jim stated the front bearing cannot effect the mixture on a fourstroke. (YS excepted of course). There is no path to the intake from there. In 18 years your engine will look exactly the same, I use that figure because my 1.50 is 18 years old.

daveopam

My Feedback: (9)

Salty, what are you doing to your Saito's? lol Did you ever get the 72 running right?

David

Salty25

My Feedback: (9)

I like that... of course I would never use a little dirty one.

Yeah, the 72 is running great. Every since I put it back together and put it back on the Aeropet it hasn't given me a problem. So I'm thinking maybe they just wanted to me to show them some love and take em apart.

If you remember the 72 started backfiring and throwing the prop. Pulled it apart, couldn't find anything so put it back together. Now it runs like a champ; good low idle, smooth transitions and strong.

I think I'm going to just put the 180 on the SuperStar I just put together. It's supposed to rain this weekend but I can still run the engine at the house to test it out. I'm going to the LHS in the morning.

daveopam

My Feedback: (9)

I would bet your 72 was sucking a little air around the intake tube. Common problem on the first generation of them. I have a zip tie on two of mine. I run it around the base of the cylinder and bottom of the intake tube, just above the carb. This takes all the flex out of the back plate.

You must read every detail in these post. You also commented on my old quote,"choose your shirt and shoes by thier color, and your friends by their charactor". I need to change again. I have had this one a while.

Be sure and post how your 1.80 comes out. Mine is a little finicky in the prop area. I have a APC 17x6 on it right now. Tried three brands of 18x6 with no luck.

David

Salty25

My Feedback: (9)

Maybe it's just habit. I worked Intel when I was in the Navy and now I'm a police officer. It's all in the details. LOL

I went all the way over to the LHS. I know it's not 365 miles but you chose to live in the mountains. They handed me the package, I thought it looked strange but it was the only one there for special order.

Came home and the one I got is for a 300. Called them up and my set is still on the desk with my name on it. [X(]

So they are going to mail it to me and I'll send them the 300 back. So much for putting it together tonight and running it tomorrow.