2Sunny

I was practicing my double roll today when a local IMAC officiando offered some friendly advice and said I should be working on using rudder as well as elevator. I said my mentor suggested I stick with worrying about just elevator for now until I get better.

Any thoughts from the pro's? Would you recommend learning with or without rudder initially? I know I will need to work up to rudder inputs in the future if I want to do 4 points and slow rolls, but I just don't feel comfortable with the rudder during a roll right now. What do you recommend?


Thanks as always,


JP

Rendegade

If you're not comfortable with rudder, leave it out for now, and work on 2 point rolls, that is, from upright to inverted, until you get a feel for the elevator.

Then, you may do as I did, and take the elevator out of the equation, and work on your rudder. so again, a 2 point roll, but knife edge to knife edge, then put it all together.

Do only as much as you think you're capable of, and every flight, you'll get a little better.

bwick

I disagree. Rudder is probably the most important stick on the radio. If you want to become a good pattern pilot, you can't afford to avoid using the rudder because it feels awkward. Use it until it doesn't, then use it some more. In my opinion, you should be really pushing to include the rudder in every roll you do.

Remember, perfect practice makes perfect. If you're practicing with just elevator chances are you'll develop bad habits, such as popping the nose up before the roll. You're just digging yourself a hole that's going to be harder to get out of once you finally decide you want to start including rudder.

To really become the best you can be, you should never accept mediocrity. Strive to make everything the best it can be and always challenge yourself.

apereira

The idea of the half roll is a good one.

But try to do the 4 point first, then go to the slow roll, the thing you can do is mentally fly the roll while moving the transmitter sticks, it's pretty much a timing maneuver so that will help.

Regards

Rendegade

I agree with rudder being one of the most important primary flight controls in any form of aerobatic flying. My suggestion was merely to try and separate the control so that you get a feel for flying with the rudder, obviously as you progress you'll require all four (including throttle) primary flight controls working in unisen.

I see it in a similar fashion to learning to fly (remember when you first started?), first you start with ailerons or rudder depending on the aircraft, untill you're comfortable with flying the aircaft in a roll axis, then you do the elevators separately, until you develop the feel for the pitch axis, then you combine the two.

Correct me if I'm wrong of course.

bwick

I don't believe you should "work up" to using the rudder. It's not going to be any easier to use the rudder later rather than sooner.

I suppose it's just part of how I approach things. If I can't do something correctly, I figure out what I need to change so that I can. I don't think leaving out rudder when you're practicing rolls is the right thing to do, because leaving out rudder is not the correct way to do rolls.

Rendegade

Yeah, you're right that it doesn't get any easier, I suppose my angle is taking the rudder as a separate component of a bigger picture, and familiarising yourself with it.

Sort of like learning the alphabet before you learn words, still whatever works for you is what works for you, am I right?

JAS

My Feedback: (2)

Grab a stick plane and 'practice'. I don't think there is a 'proper' way, there is a way that you will learn it easier, but you will have to figure it out.

When I was doing the 3 rolls back in Sportsman (Intermediate now) I only used elevator, no rudder. Rudder was learned for slow and 4pts in Advanced in 89-90. I didn't learn how to use rudder for harder stuff until way late in the game. As a matter of fact, I didn't know how to do a proper rolling circle until I got my first TOC invite in 93 for the 94 TOC. Talk about crash course.

Also, try breaking down rolls.

4 points consist of 2 KE flights and an inverted flight. No sense in trying a 4pt if you can't fly inverted or do KE on both sides.
Slow rolls are kind of the same as 4pts.
2 regular rolls can be done fine with just bumps of down and up elevator. If you do them slower then you will need to learn rudder.

Tip- from upright, you will always use opposite rudder from the aileron direction you are rolling for the first KE. Starting from inverted it's the same rudder for the first KE.

swlarcham

My Feedback: (1)

2sunny
I am assuming you are referring to the 2 rolls in INT(402). If not please disregard what I'm about to say.

You've heard from the best & they are correct, of course. And I am not disagreeing with them at all - I just want to share my experience as another 402 pilot who has struggled with this maneuver greatly.

I started out determined to do it integrated(elevator, rudder,ailerons,etc) and struggled with the timing. I finally got so scared of it I would bail out after the 1st roll if it didn't look OK. I was told , more than once, to only use elevator BUT I'm hardheaded and was determined to learn it correctly( my undertsanding of correct anyway)

Later a good friend explained to me that the 2 horizontal rolls are NOT an integrated rolling maneuver and I was in fact attempting to do it incorrectly. 2 horizontal rolls happen too fast to use everything easily -the timing is much more critical.
So with the idea that using only elevator wasn't cheating I started over and practiced it that way. I can now say I do it great "until" I get in front of judges - then not so good <g> BUT always acceptable - I only got a few 7's this year and mostly 8&9's. I certainly couldn't say that before.

When I was still attemptng to do it integrated I practiced on the SIM a lot and could do 4 point rolls & slow rolls fairly easily but to speed it up for the 2 horizontal rolls just happened too fast for me to integrate them.

So I guess I'm saying , as it was explained to me, the 2 rolls don't require integration BUT of course if you can get the timing right it will only make the next steps up to 4 points and slow rolls easier. You won't have a choice then, you'll HAVE to use everything.

Try it both ways and choose the one you can do best for now, but keep practicing both as 403 will be here soon enough <VBG>

Eddie

Jeff Boyd 2

I LOVE using rudder . . just makes everything smooth out nice. Can't integrate ANY rolling manoeuvre without it.

I think Jas is spot-on. 4 point rolls are a good trainer . . get them down, and the rest are a variation of that.

If you think you are going to 'put it in' practicing it, don't do it (or do it higher) . . also Simulators are not good for everything, but I think practicing the use of rudder on a Sim would be a good idea (for confidence).

Cheers, JB

EDIT: Ooops . . looks like Eddie and I were posting at the same time with similar info

Jeff Boyd 2

Just want to qualify that statement . .

Slow(ish) 4 point rolls make you use rudder, and the pauses of the points give you time to think about what you are doing with the rudder. Start learning 4 points with rudder by rolling the way you are comfortable. Jas has already given you a good tip . . from upright to the first KE position = opposite rudder to aileron imput . . and LEARN to remember as you go from inverted to the last KE position = same rudder as aileron imput. You will use wrong rudder a couple of times and quickly grab a hand full of CORRECT rudder to fix it .. we have ALL done it, just don't do it low impressing the guys .

If I can add a tip here . . if you are at a contest performing a 4 point OR slow roll and half way through your brain turns to mush . . leave the rudder alone for the last segment, as NO rudder is much better than WRONG rudder [:@].

Now you can comfortably do 4 point rolls WITH rudder . . and it's becoming easy. Now, do a slow(ish) roll. Same as the 4 point only it's actually now EASIER . . you don't have to worry about the points . Just hold the aileron stick at your comfortable roll rate, and add top rudder as you go over the KE positions.

When you start doing this, you will probably find that you 'zag' a little until you get to 'feel' the correct amount of rudder required . . but it will come quickly now . . and you're done. Now learn to do the same thing the opposite way and you are a 'master' (and believe me . . that feels really weird the first few times you do it !).

It won't be long and rudder will become part of your natural flying style and you will find yourself using it instinctively.

Now, you are ready to try those integrated rolling loops ! !

Cheers, JB

2Sunny

Wow, great incite from all! Thanks a bunch guys!

I think breaking my practice into two parts, one being the Intermediate (402) double roll that I can continue to practice using only elevator, and two being a 4 point roll using rudder is an excellent compromise. Actually its exactly what the "ole pro" at my field suggested too.

Thanks again! We'll see how it all comes together next year at the Nats



JP


P.S. JAS if you're still listening in I'm having trouble with another CARF order. I lost my canopy and dinged up my stab on my Integral. If you have a chance could you take a look at CARF pending orders for Joe Peck? Sorry for the hassle

cmoulder

Joe, it sounds a little cumbersome at first, but for me the best way to learn was to say or think "actively" the stick movements when I was learning slow rolls. For a right roll, "Blend in left rudder, blend out, push, blend out, blend in right rudder, blend out," or something like that. After about 500 or so rolls they started looking pretty good, and after 1000 they were becoming natural and instinctive. Repeated the process for left rolls and now they too are instinctive, as well as when the airplane is approaching from the left or right.

I liked learning slow rolls first because they absolutely forced me to use the rudder.

PM or email sometime if you are going to Croton to work on them.

J Lachowski

My Feedback: (46)

JAS I have passed the Batton. Joe P. (2Sunny) is now the new proud owner of the JAS world traveled Integral<g>

Joe is now in posession of some of that JAS mojo too<g>. He should now have no trouble perfecting his two horizontal rolls.

Ryan Smith

My Feedback: (25)

Let's see.

Two Integrals. A brand new E-Motion.

Yep, I think he's been bitten by the pattern bug.

J Lachowski

My Feedback: (46)

And a Beryll<g>

Ryan Smith

My Feedback: (25)

Wow.

2Sunny

Yes, but the plan is to try them all and keep only 2. I just happen to be very blessed when it comes to the issue of finances so I can afford to experiment plus Joe offered such an incredible deal I couldn't refuse. However, I would say the "bug" is more like an addiction, and I am definitely am addicted The real problem is I need more packs so I can practice more than 40 minutes, and I need to move to Florida so I don't have to stop practicing in Jan. and Feb. [:'(]



JP

bjr_93tz

That's odd, the two rolls (4) in the AMA 2009-2010 intermediate pattern are shown as linked in the arresti, which would indicate to me they are performed seamlessly..

In any case my two rolls in the Aussie sportsman schedule take 5 seconds with constant roll rate from start to finish. Much harder than doin two quick rolls and only a little harder than the 5 second slow roll.

swlarcham

My Feedback: (1)

I didn't mean they are not a continous element - they are 2 consecutive rolls. What I was trying to say is they happen too fast to comfortably do them integrated. Also they happen so quickly tha rudder correction isn't really necessary, just a blip of elevator at inverted. What I finally figured out is I was WAY Over flying everything about the maneuver, sorta like a young person first learning to drive oversteering, and when I quit trying to integreate rudder & elevator my timing got better and I settled down.

Sorry for the confusion.
Eddie

bjr_93tz

Interesting point you raise swlarcham about the speed of the rolls, and I suppose it comes down to how the judges score two straight, centered fast rolls as opposed to two straight, centered slower rolls.

I can't remember how I learned to roll "properly" but I would have to suggest that for an absolute beginner you'd roll from upright to upright with no down elevator. Then progress to 2 point rolls (elevator only) and then four point rolls using rudder. I enjoy rolling the best as it's an easy thing to throw into your flying when you're practicing your baseline.

Using rudder when your roll rate is fast will only make the roll look wobbly but you need to use rudder even for half rolls on 45 deg up and down lines if you slow the roll rate down. I guess the better you get the slower you roll because it tends to display a greater level of control.

JAS

My Feedback: (2)

I personally think there isn't really a place for 'fast' rolls in pattern. Now 'normal' rolls and slow rolls, ok. I think to start (if you were entering contests or don't have time to practice much) the 2 rolls should be done at a 'normal' roll rate. Basically fast enough to only require blips of elevator and not slow enough to need rudder inputs.

swlarcham

My Feedback: (1)

Thanks Jason
That was all I was trying to say. Sorry I didn't explain it well enough. I did not mean rudder use was NOT a good thing to learn, just not "required" when first learning the 402 two horizontal rolls maneuver.

Eddie

dreadnaut

My Feedback: (5)

This reminds me of when I was flying sportsman in the late '90's I was taught to use just elevator in the three rolls. There was one maneuver in that sequence that I do credit with pushing me to use rudder during rolls, and it was the old outside loop from the bottom. It gave me fits because they always came out more like corkscrews than loops, until I started putting a little blip of opposite rudder when rolling to inverted. I still practice this maneuver as warm up.

diceman

My Feedback: (10)

Sit in a chair, close your eyes with the transmitter in your lap and visualize the roll and inputs as you move down the line. Start with super slow motion visualization, and as you get more comfortable speed up the process.

By doing this in a quit enviroment (I did this years ago in my recliner at home) you will learn the inputs without worring about your plane. Other manuvers can be learned and profected the same way.