Cdallas2

This isn't necessarily in regards to pattern planes but you guys seem to have the best and lightest finishes out there.

Last year I followed Mike Hester's [link=http://www.customairframes.com/caaforum/showthread.php?t=93]technique[/link] to glass a small balsa cowl but now I want to do an entire plane.

My question is do you guys feel this is any heavier than film covering or if done right it should be the same or at least very close?

rcpattern

My Feedback: (45)

If it done right it can be the same weight as covering. There are guys out there who have done wings lighter with glass and paint than monokote, so it is possible once you have mastered it.

Arch

flyncajun

It`s not possible to finish with glass and paint as light or lighter than film covering ,just cant be done with a quality outcome.
However, if the build is properly planed you can get a light finish only,By building lighter and taking advantage of the glass strength
you can achieve maybe 40 grams increase on wings and 100 grams on the fuse over film.There is about a 10 0z difference on a pattern size plane total ,glass paint/vs plastic film.

You have to remember it takes Years of mastery to properly plan, and build for durability , quality ,with a light airframe outcome to make it possible.
Just putting the glass on a wing is the same weight as film,now you have primer,panit and possibly clear.

Using Dope, Tissue ,silk span ect. is light, might be doable by the pro`s like Matt k. and maybe Dean Pappas, but it`s not very durable, you have to also be a master at taking care of it as well.Then, You have to be very carfull to make a season without the need for a refurbish.

If your not trying to meet a weight goal use Mike`s technique it`s good!. but if you are trying to save weight,, you won`t.
Bryan

rcpattern

My Feedback: (45)

Bryan,

Granted, people can't put your finish on a plane for the same weight, but you can't do that with Monokote either. There are guys though that are building wings as light as if not lighter than Monokote with paint. Mike Wingo has done it multiple times. His fuses are also comparable to the all monokote prototype fuse that Mike built and was 100% monokote. While not easy, and I certainly couldn't do it, but there are people who can put a nice reasonable finish on a plane at roughly the same weight.

Arch

dhal22

monocote is 1.75 - 2.25 oz per sq yd i think. glass can be bought as light as .50 oz per sq yd.

MTK

Dave,

I am not sure what your point is with your statement. You are saying that one can buy very light glass cloth, which is true....are you also implying that one can finish a surface lighter than monokote using this glass?

The key problem with glass is lay down and weave fill to eliminate telegraphing of the weave. It takes thickness to do that. That's what Bryan is alluding to. Thickness =weight and in the end the weight per square yard of a glassed surface to Bryan's standard, finished, is a heavier surface. The other thing about glass cloth is that over time, the dope, epoxy or other material used to apply it, will shrink just enough and the weave will telegraph through. Many don't care about that but I think Bryan does. His finishes are that impeccable

Silkspan and dope technique is lighter than monokote. Carbon veil and dope even lighter and much stiffer. But both of these techniques require lots of experience (read that many errors along the way) to make it come out properly. Silkspan has no weave to fill per se and makes for a great surface to paint. Carbon veil on the other hand is wide open and needs filling but is also very thin. Thin = light

BUT, very thin is not ding resistant. It doesn't much matter how you get thin, (glass, carbon, silkspan, Jap tissue) it won't be ding resistant. If that kind of resistance is what one is after, then the best bet is monokote.

Personally I abhor plastic films on pattern planes. Love plastic film on my grandson's trainer

MattK

rcpattern

My Feedback: (45)

The statement he made originally was, CAN IT BE DONE? The answer is YES, it can be done. It is not easy and there probably arent many out there who can do it. But it can be done. Can you put a candy apple deep finish on one, probably not, but you can't get that look with just monokote either. There are guys now using the techniques that a lot of racing and glider guys do and are vacuum bagging the clother overtop of the wing, which leaves a virtually perfect finish without having to go back and add much filler. This would be virtually impossible to do a fuselage, but works well on wings. Is your average guy out there finishing a place capable of doing a finish this nice, probably not, but it is possible if someone has the experience level and patience to take the time to do it.

I think if take a fairly simple scheme that doesnt require a lot of colors laid over other colors and lots of fading and such and are really judicious with it, it can be done.

Arch

Cdallas2

Thanks for the advice so far but I think it's time to add some more info.

I'm building a Balsa USA Northstar. If you are not familiar it's a delta wing seaplane that is notoriously tail heavy. The recommended finishing job is to fiberglass the bottom of the hull then cover with either Ultracote or Fabric & paint. My thought was to cut lightening holes in the wing ribs, sheet with contest balsa then fiberglass & paint the entire plane. After playing around with fiberglass paint on the previous plane I'd like to try it on an entire plane and figured this might be the right time as it will seal the airframe as well as give a nice finish. Most of the people who have done this say it will make it come out really heavy but on the other hand I don't know there skill level with glass so it could just be that it was done improperly.

dhal22

MattK, i was replying to the above part of flyincajun's post.

MTK

Doing a wood fuse this way is something I've given some thought to. I think it's possible to bag a fuse in a baloon. It would require a large enough perforated tube (must fit the whole fuse) that can draw the baloon to the inside surface using vacuum. Then the fuse is inserted and vacuum released on the baloon. The baloon will collapse and conform to the fuse.

I have not done it .... not yet anyway! I am not as certain that the baloon will conform to every concavity.

Bagging the covering onto a wing is straight forward if you are using epoxy. Not as straight forward if you are using dope, which is my personal favorite method for covering wings.

MattK

Avaiojet

How thick is iron on covering?

The thickness of a coat or two of applied paint, enough paint or thickness to "cover?"

Anything after that seems to be added weight. Correct?

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

I've done glass and iron on. I like glass better, added weight or not.

Charles

dhal22

i too abhor plastic coverings. i build strictly for the fun of it. i'm in no hurry and paint everything i build.

Avaiojet

David,

Ever use Klasscoat? (sp.) It's epoxy base. I'm told it's great, but would like to know more about the product.

Charles

dhal22

charles,

that's next for me. i've done latex and Nelson paint. latex for sport or warbirds is fine, no support for the nelson paint and not enough gloss. so that leaves klasskote. there's a couple of guys on the classic pattern forum using KK.

NJRCFLYER2

My Feedback: (42)

Klasskote covers nicely in just a couple of coats. I get the impression from using it once that you could make a lighter finish than with PPG paints, but it's just an impression. I have not had time to do a careful comparison.

You will not get the same kind of gloss that PPG paints provide, but it's better looking than film covering, and it's durable. I'm told that over the years, the finish can start to look a little chalky if not clear coated. I assume that could be rubbed out though.

astropuppy

My Feedback: (23)

The secret to preventing chalk-key-ness is to wax it when its young. Just like a car.

NJRCFLYER2

My Feedback: (42)

Good point. How long to wait after finishing before you can wax it?

flyncajun

Arch,don`t take this the wrong way but,
don`t believe everything you read no one can do it (glass over wood finish equal weight to film)
The question was whether Mike`s system could be done lighter than monocoat ,you said it could
Neither Mike`s, nor my System can be done lighter than Monocoat. with ANY quality.
Molding an airplane skin finish, then painting the surface. is not the same thing, totaly different system not even the same league , molds have to be used.
Paint is the least weight involved in a painted wing or fuse once the surface has been prepaired.

On a 950 square wing monocoat weighs 30 grams total
If you use .5 cloth it s 15 grams then ,it takes minimum of 20 grams of epoxie per wing( and it takes lots of experiance to learn to use that little ) thats 35 grams, and then you you have to prime and paint. thats another 2 onces if your good,all conservative numbers.
The lighter the cloth the more filler it takes to fill the weave so No it`s not possible anyone who says it is, has never painted or never weighed the process in stages to compare.

The only way to get a light or equal weight finish is with dope and silk and that takes years of practice to do it right with a decent finish. Then you have a finish not as strong as film.

Now if you have the experiance to plan the build you can compensate for the weight gain of a glass finish and reduce the weight of the airframe.
then you can have a light, painted airframe.
But that was not the question.
Bryan

Cdallas2

So for this application (weight sensitive) I guess the consensus is that I stick with the Ultracote until I get some more experience with fiberglass and paint.

Thanks for all the advice.

MTK

Bryan

I thought I had your email address but I can't find it. Please send it to me

Thanks

Matt

astropuppy

My Feedback: (23)

Basically, after finishing I stuff the airplane and than wax. Sometimes the stuffing takes months because I've lost interest, other times its a week or two. I have found the (new) Hi Tech - polymer - waxes to be very good at UV protection. Sorry for the pathetic answer, I really haven't kept track. However, I always wax before flying for the first time.

Klass Kote seems to gas off fairly quickly, days instead of the weeks it takes - lacquer - dope to gas off.

Disclosure: I do not consider myself an expert painter. 7 foot finish and I'm fine. To me the trick is to have a 7 foot - light - finish when the airplane is a couple season's old.

MTK

One of the best qualities of KlasssKote is it's ability to be fine sanded (smooth out the base and remove flash) within a day of spraying. That is, if you plan to clear coat. Polyurethane 2 part clear works great over KK.

I have not used KK clear over KK base. I think the amines in part 2 make it photosensitive and it will yellow over time.

Matt

astropuppy

My Feedback: (23)

Nate at Klass Kote will tell you straight up KK clear will yellow from the get go and only deteriorates from there. Nothing I've seen is as "crystal clear" as the better - more expensive - versions PPG paints. The low grade Ommi PPG is way more clear than KK, in my opinion.

I encourage anybody with the desire to learn how to paint, to try KK. If your unsure of your abilities, try something easy, like control surfaces or a whole fuselage. Monokote/Ultracote colors are available.

I have no interest in KK, I'm just a big time fan of their product.

Avaiojet

Automotive products, Dupont, Spies Hecker, and RM with a two stage clear coat, Dupont, is where most of my choices have been for paint. I've also used K&B Epoxy and Dope plus some of the aerosol can stuff sold in HS for models. That stuff can work great!

Picking the right colors and just "dusting" enough to cover, can save weight.

As I said, I couldn't care less about weight. I'll glass and paint or use silk and dope on most of my models.

However, I have a 27% Staudacher that I'm tempted to cover with iron on to save the weight. Only because of the way you would fly this particular model. Crazy, but guys are flying them, in a way real airplanes don't fly. Times change.

I've posted this photo many times of a model I scratched and finished many years ago. This model is glassed and finished with auto primer and paint. Dupont clear. Lettering and other detailing was done by brush and airbrush. All tight edges, no airbrush freehand.

Charles

dhal22

this plane is covered in .75 oz cloth, minwax polycrylic and nelson paint. it is awaiting clearcoat but weight testing shows it ending up about 7.5 lbs or slightly more. perfect for a classic pattern plane.