Mokken

My Feedback: (63)

Electric planes have there advantage, like no mess, but the cost is still too high. The advantage of gas/nitro planes is.. You get the same power curve from the time the engine starts till it runs out of fuel. I had a few electrics and didn't enjoy having to land when I still have juice, just not enough to do anything.

iron eagel

Ifly, I am not putting down IC engines by any means, man I love the sound and feel of an airplane with a an old style round engine, there is nothing that sounds as sweet. But like I said as the turbine replaced the radial in high performance aircraft, electric is about to do for non turbine R/C performance aircraft. For a entire myriad of reasons, not the least of which is noise and environmental concerns. I have 40 year old glow stuff that still runs but more and more in the past year or two I find electrics to be an interesting alternative to wet fuel.
Now as far as what you call cheap junk...
I tried out a $25 ESC with a cheap $30 motor last year and beat the crap out of it, and it is still going strong, so don't be so quick to shy away from some of the less costly combination's some are pretty good, some are trash before you open the package. Now the plane I have pictured has a CC Ice 100 Amp ESC and an HET 2W-23 6 pole brushless selected for it, which compares with the Electrifly brushless sitting next to it on the bench but weighs half as much, cost for the motor and ESC under $190 with shipping.
The real crappy electric stuff will die off as the word gets out about any issues they have, the better stuff will prevail, kinda of a survival of the fittest type of thing.
But I really think that electric power will replace glow in the near future, and we are not talking 5-10 years, but rather more like a year or two.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

I imagine engines made from materials that can withstand more heat, use bearings with less friction, stronger parts with less reciprocating weight, more powerful fuel, more completely combusted mixtures, and so on, are yet to be developed if the market for these engines isn't wiped out by electric power.

iron eagel

You are right!

But I really think that electrics are going to be some stiff competition for air breathing engines. Like HP said the new electric stuff that is coming make even today's technology seem heavy and crude, and they are already approaching par with IC engines.

Didn't someone say a few years back that the only constant in the universe is change?

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

So true...but I'm here to point out that wet power is yet to reach a dead end.

Not a dead end in technical terms or in terms of general interest.

Guys have been declaring that "IC can't get any more powerful than it is now" for decades.

mk1spitfire

Its a whole new science to some wishing to dabble into electric flight. Understanding of different batteries,motors,the poles in motors the winds in motors and choosing props for those motors,usually a weak electric type. Knowledge of amps,volts,watts and speed controlers with or with a bloody ubec.

Look, there will always be traitors to the nitro and will never look back, others because its a new technology to Rc will dip their toes in an unfamilar world and will return as nitro knights.

Others will embrace both nitro and electric,best of both worlds is the way foward surly?

Why is it seen that one replaces the other.? They are existing togther.

For every nitro traitor,it raises the cost of fuel and plugs.

iflyg450

Both have pros and cons I fly both and will continue to fly both. Much like glow the electric stuff will reach a end really only the batteries have changed, has their really been a lot of changes in electric motors?? They have gotten lighter and cheaper. But where do you go from the brushless motor? Wet fuel has had tons of chages over the 74 years (os wise) they have been around. Such as , spark to glow, scavange-schullnur porting, plain-ball bearing, 2 stroke 4 stroke Gas, Venturi-rc Carb, prop-ducted fan, .010-2.13ci, and we could go on and on. Electric motors brushed-brushless thats it so motor wise it sounds like the electric motor has reached its dead end they will only get cheaper and lighter you already have electric motors for every size. Yes the batteries are going to change

IdeaBeing

The endless complaints of how expensive LiPo batteries are have begun to ring hollow. I buy my 4000mah batteries from Hobby King for just a little more than my nitro buddies pay for a gallon of their fuel. After the 10 or so flights they can get from that bottle, my LiPo is still running strong, ready to deliver at least another 150-200 flights.
Yes, the charge time is a pain, so I keep 3-4 of these batteries in rotation which, i realize, raises the cost, but also the longevity.
That said, when someone at the field fires up a 100cc twin or better yet a kero turbine, there's a visceral thrill that is sadly absent from whiny EDFs and stealthy e-props.
For those who are willing to undertake the extra cost, risk, noise and mess involved in wet flying, they may reap the rewards in thrills-per-minute and more tinkering time (which is certainly half the reason I got into this in the first place) but as safety-crats and noise cops nose around our field, leased from the city, I'm pretty sure it's not the electric planes that would prevent our lease from being renewed.
Wet power is not a dead end, but will likely become a specialized niche in an electric-dominated hobby. Been to an auto show lately? You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

evan-RCU

Electric really is in it's infancy still. Just 5-6 years ago we were using brushed motors and NiCds. New sizes, kV and efficiency motors are coming out all the time. Batterys are getting better and cheaper it seems like each week. ESC's likewise are getting better in what they can do and handle.

IC motors have had a hundred years to change and they are still very similar. Other than CNC manufacturing to increase the manufacturing quality there really hasn't been a big jump in the glow motor since Schnuerle porting became popular in the 70's. Our gas motors took a big jump from the weed eater motors but it too has seemed to slow in development.

All the new technology is now focused on electrics, that's where the new will be coming from.

iron eagel

To me it all about airplanes…
I currently have engines that range fro a .20 pet to a 35 CC Zenoah in airplanes. The planes I fly the most are powered by glow, and probably will be the ones I fly the most in the future. I am such a creature of habit that the majority of my airplanes are still covered in silk and painted so it’s not like I am one to embrace what is new all that easily.
Some twenty years ago a friend brought over his sons new battery powered airplane asking if I could help them get it to fly. One of my first comments to them was replace the toy electric motor with a glow engine. That and put some real landing gear on it, it had a spindly wire setup that could just support the weight of the airplane and probably would fold on the first landing (which it did). I told them at the time that they would be disappointed with it and it was a neat toy but by no means a real R/C aircraft.
Fast forward about 15 years and my wife decides that she wants to get into flying R/C but. She is put off by the slime that has to be cleaned off of the planes after a day of flying. Well there were a few guys at this new club I joined flying these electric airplanes, powered by some sort of lithium battery, hmmm. Where I have a background in electrical engineering I started to look into what was up with this new stuff. I set up an lt-40 with a Axi motor, a phoenix ESC and a little over a pound of A123 cells, cost for the power system $600, ouch. But you know what the plane flew pretty well on that setup although the cost was stupid. Do you know what type of engine and how much fuel I could buy with $600? At that point my mindset was yes you can build an electric airplane or two glow powered ones for the same money with new engines and all the radio gear, yea electric was clean but the price is stupid.
As time went on the prices came down and li-pol batteries improved in the power they could deliver. Soon I had a couple of .30 size electric fun flys that I kept in the car and would stop at the field on the way to or from work that I could just toss into the air and get a quick flight in. All I needed was my radio the charger and plane and could go flying. No need for my flight box with battery starter and fuel and having to clean up the plane to keep from messing up the interior of the car, neat.
For the best time I still load up a couple of glow planes pack a lunch and head out to the field.
But having been bitten by the speed bug again I am currently building a purpose built speed plane.
How is it powered by a electric motor For $59 I have a motor that will spin up to 33,000 rpm, how much would a IC engine that could do that cost me?

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

I think that glow engines are a long way from hitting a "dead end". All we have to change is the mission and then the development game starts all over again. However, we might be looking for ways to lower fuel costs with glow engines. E85 auto fuel still offers hope, in my opinion. Better yet, E100.

One day, the average modeler will be able to assemble a 200 mph capable electric with store bought, reasonably priced parts. Shortly after which the authorities (powers that be) might be forced to intervene because of the high accident rate with such fast models - it could happen!!! Or something else will force their hands to make some laws regulating our hobby. It would be a lot simpler to build a terrorist airliner intercept missile with 200 mph capable power systems, than it is today. Unfortunately for many terrorists, it will also take a lot more brains than many terrorists will ever hope to be granted by The Big Guy Upstairs.

Let's see, burnning E85 on glow with a great new low cost oil that will pamper our engines - buzz-buzz-buzz buzz-buzz......


Ed Cregger

evan-RCU

Ed, I have a 229.9mph electric that I built two years ago with off the shelf parts, and I could have gone faster with a bigger set up...

mk1spitfire

Gentlemen, it is ok to get you hands dirty with an engine. Wear gloves if you dont want to contaiminant your hand moisteriser.

Electric comment often used is ,'messy engine,slimey,oily engine', listen to yourselfs, what are you saying.!!

Big deal, your ment to be men, clean your model! I mean you might have spent months making it but you won't spend a couple of minutes cleaning and checking over it. Geezzz

Simple, get a spray bottle and mix half water half methalated spirits,spray,use cloth, wipe off, easy!!

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

For speed planes I do think that having a piston bouncing up and down way up front in the airstream is where the dead end lies for IC.
It's always going to be the limiting factor.
The era of the IC speed plane with the silouette a freight train needs to come to a close.

MTK

Ed,

My point was that I don't care about the sheer speed possible in short bursts from a battery operated model plane. Okay, so the electric model can reach 1000 mph, so what? To those who like that, I say great, good luck, God bless. I also don't care about the high output of a pattern or IMAC electric using today's and tomorrow's technology. Many do but not me

I love gasoline and glow stuff. I like the sound, the smell, the mess, the clean up, the whole package. I certainly can afford the best electric stuff, and am in a position to even fund some of the research. But I don't want to go that way. Bottom line to me.

Unless my gas/glow stuff is legislated obsolete, that's what I'll fly. I simply enjoy the figuring out part...I am not a plug and play sort of person.

BUT, since I am neck deep in pattern competition, electric will likely take center stage when my grandson starts to win competitions. It will be political and I am not naive when it comes to my grandson winning

MattK

Cricketpcc

I don't think wet power is dead! I just think electrics have brought many many more people into the rc aircraft world. I bought Saito's FG-36, a premix gasoline spark ignition 4 stroke. It's the same engine as their glow 220 and sounds beautiful. Now they came out with 2 smaller versions including an .82, they're pricey but very nice. So for me... I'm done with glow, I'll stick to park fly electrics and gas 4 strokes for the big ones.

z06kal

I grew up flying glow. I don't miss the mess to clean up after the oil gets in every nook of the plane. I don't miss oil pouring out the muffler and onto my interior/shoes whatever. I don't miss dealing with starting issues and dead stick issues or blown glow plugs. I don't miss figuring out and diagnosing flooding, tank, fuel delivery issues etc. I don't miss random dead sticks.

You guys like the sound? That's all on you. 2 cycle glow engines remind me of my gardener waking me up doing yard work in the morning. Is that the sound of performance a buzzy 2 stroke leaf blower? Some of the 4-cycle stuff on war-birds etc sounds decent and I can respect people who prefer that.

I think electric is now cheaper than equiv performance glow. Even on big birds. I fly my 28% Extra on two 5S 5000mah packs that are $44 each. I use a $100 HV100 controller. I use a $160 Hyperion out runner. I fly 8 minutes no problem and have awesome super fast and linear throttle response that blows away gas/glow. I can unpack and fly in minutes. That is over a 3kw power setup. Even a Chinese DL-50 is $330. But granted I can't fly for 30min on a tank like you can with gas.

On my Great Planes Minnow 90 size plane I run a $42 Hobbycity 63-64 280kv out-runner. I use a $100 12S 5000mah pack setup. I use a $100 HV100 controller. My power system is $242. It turns a APC Pattern 13x13 prop at nearly 11,000rpm and produces 2500 watts (3.5 horsepower). The plane does 125mph level on the Prospeed CR1K. To get similar performance you need a YS110 on what 30% fuel? How much is a YS110 again? How much is a gallon of 30%? I also think the plane sounds much more scale because all you hear is lots of prop noise. It actually sounds a lot like a full scale plane going by.

For a solid 200mph airplane you can pickup a F5D for $350-400. Get a ARC 28/58/1 for $90 get a Castle ICE 100 for $120. and a 5S 3200 pack for $40. That is a $250 power system that will spin a 5x5 prop at over 200mph. The entire plane with radio can be done for around $750-800. I don't know of a cheaper way to go 200mph short of a Carbon Destiny 54" Glider Dynamic Soaring.

Some say hobby IC is not maxed out. I say it is. To go further than it is now will require power adders like electronic fuel control, forced induction etc. All things that will make IC more expensive not less. Making the engines stronger without increasing the cost by a large margin seems unreasonable given the required quality of materials and machine work.

Until electric systems can produce 20hp in a 5 pound package and fly for 5-6 minutes turbines will be here to stay. Turbines will be around a long time because power/weight/performance can't be beaten by anything else. Electrics are already beating IC piston engines on that and in some cases rather badly.

All things said you still don't have the run time with electric. Hard to beat the power density of fuel. With electrics you always have to sacrifice the run time. But that will be changing in the near future...

ARUP

By God- there are still real men in this here model airplane game! Hurrah!!!!!!!! I owe you a Sammy Smith's Oatmeal Stout! You won't see any electric fullscale airplane of any consequence. (Sonex is one test example and its performance was miserable. The wet powered ones are very practical, though!)

Some folks like electric but not me. Their choice. I don't even need an electric motor to start my airplane!

Evil_Merlin

My Feedback: (13)

Power my 1/4 scale Fw 190 D9 with electric and keep my 15-25 minutes of flying time. Oh and keep the price around what I paid for my gas 80cc set up... around 700 bucks. And that included the spring starter and my 24oz. gas tank.


Nope, wet power isn't dead. Far from it.


THat being said, I do thing smaller glow stuff is as good as dead in the next few years. Electrics up to .60 or even .90 sized stuff will rule the market. Anything over that will be multi-cylinder glow or gas and multi cylinder gas.

I do hope glow dies soon though. As much as I loved it as a kid, I just dislike it now.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Most of the posts so far, [including mine] aren't addressing the original question in the context of how it applies to EXTREME SPEED MODELS.

The engineering types who know about the energy unleashing potential of fuels VS battery chemistries and who know about relative onboard weights involved are who we need to listen from.

So far, the biggest, most glaring difference I see with the equipment we have right now...is aerodynamic.

MarkF

I have always liked both power systems but I havn't seen anyone mention anything about the loss of glow flying fields due to the noise factor. To me thats one of the reasons why glow is on the decline. How many people got out of this hobby becuase there local flying field got shut down. Have any of you noticed any new flying fields pop up thats electric only. Thats the future of flight these days I'm afraid. I have 3 within a 30 minute drive from my house. Having said that I dont think glow is going anywere for a long time regardless of the advances of electrics. There will always be a place for both.

Mark

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

I think the switch to electric power has more to do with men becoming more and more feminine as the years go by.

In my Dad's day, young men boxed each other in High School Gym class.

They played tackle football without face masks.

They were the last men of any generation to win a major war.

Issues like noise and gooeyness of toy engines were a non issue to them.

z06kal

Hahah funny post Combat! I just like whatever delivers the best performance and bang for the buck. If it has convenience that is a big plus. The high powered electric stuff that spins smaller props is also super loud because the prop goes supersonic so it's not necessarily always quiet.

BTW if you want to check out a cool electric full scale plane check out the Yuneec E430. It is a lot more advanced than the Sonex. It's just real efficient so you get like 2 hours flight time with some throttle management. I know it's not great but it gets more complicated when you are looking for endurance AND have to carry cargo and people. The one thing that has a lot of potential about electric civilian planes is it has the potential to really bring the cost of private aviation way down. No more $20,000 engine rebuilds every 2000 hours. No more $5 FAA approved leaded gas. Also you have the same power at sea level as you do at 20,000 feet so you can still climb strong and fast at high altitudes. No need for turbo/super charging. If you can sustain 1000fpm climb all the way from sea level to say 22,000 feet you can start getting the efficiency of thin air on drag and fly above the weather as well. This generation airplane won't do it but foreseeable generations will.

mk1spitfire

Well there we go, Flying fields beeing shut down. Disgraceful. Shut down by who? The members or the rightious, who deem you a noise polluter or an enviromental menance and carbon abuser.
Time to stand up and defend our nitro tradition before the health and saftey bigots rule over us as elites and ban nitro because they are banstabators!!
No one should be forced to go electric only.

iron eagel

Well I played hockey without a helmet, perhaps that’s my excuse…

CP, as you said the major differences for speed applications, is aerodynamics.
We won’t even delve into making a plane look more scale without the 55 gallon drum sticking out of the cowl with a water heater strapped to the side, without all that additional frontal area you have a major reduction in profile drag right off the bat. That is why in speed applications that I think that alone places wet powered airplane is at the largest risk of being a dead end.
But beyond that there are a few other factors…
Consistent runs, and less stress on the airframe also makes it that much more appealing.
Due to the reduction in vibration and the stress that put on the airframe allows for far lighter construction, that alone is going to up the performance of the aircraft. But the improved aerodynamics due to the shape and size of the engine to me is even bigger.
The 1.5 KW setup I mentioned is using a motor that weighs just over 4 ounces, that means your weight distribution can be much easier to setup. And before anyone jumps on the batter weight, yes I know about the batter weight I am talking about the moment arm. Which also means that you don’t have to beat yourself up to get a good COG location you know your battery/batteries are going to be best located near the COG.
Now there another advantage, no trim changes…
As you burn fuel you cog shifts and often means your trim changes you don’t have that issue with electric. This means that you can trim your aircraft for best performance by shifting you COG to get it at a null condition when you are at you highest airspeed meaning reduced trim drag, at cruise if you will.

I have yet to hear anyone quote a price on a wet power system that will spin a prop at 33k on the ground…
(and weighs 4 oz)


Oh and for anyone who says electrics are quieter...You haven't heard a prop getting spun at 30K+ rpm it ain't quiet, nor is it a mosquito.