EXI-450 discussions/mods/scale projects
04-12-2010, 03:53 PM
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RE: EXI-450 discussions/mods/scale projects
Yoo bad no one has replied. Set the gyro up on rate mode. That will give you true dead center for you to get 90 deg on your servo arm. Just zero trim, and subtrim then take all the gain out of the gyro setting in your radio and that should put it in rate mode.. After that put the gain back up to where ever it crosses over into heading hold mode and you should be good to go.. You can set up a switch with two different gain settings so you can switch between rate and heading hold down the road if you wish.
As for expo.. Well I initially started to learn using some expo. Being a fixed wing pilot it made sense but I heard some guys say it makes learning to hover harder. I took out the expo and I think i learned quicker. It keeps you from banging the sticks around and tipping the heli by accident. I also dont use dual rates but that is up to you and probably wouldnt hurt..
i highly recommend as do many, Finless Bob's setup videos. He breaks it down barney style. There is a video on every aspect of the t-rex..
To access the links and download the vids you will need to create a free helifreak.com account like you did here on RCU http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=41692
As for expo.. Well I initially started to learn using some expo. Being a fixed wing pilot it made sense but I heard some guys say it makes learning to hover harder. I took out the expo and I think i learned quicker. It keeps you from banging the sticks around and tipping the heli by accident. I also dont use dual rates but that is up to you and probably wouldnt hurt..
i highly recommend as do many, Finless Bob's setup videos. He breaks it down barney style. There is a video on every aspect of the t-rex..
To access the links and download the vids you will need to create a free helifreak.com account like you did here on RCU http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=41692
04-14-2010, 10:03 AM
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RE: EXI-450 discussions/mods/scale projects
I set it up like this : set the servo at 90 by hand, with slider in the middle of the tail shaft,
open the tx in hh mode, set the servo with sub-trim with no creep on either side.
no expo, no d/r on the rudder. it work good set like that. ecxept that I have to always
work the tail otherwise it wants to spin slightly. (ccw) pots at 0 on gyro.
maybe you can help with this.
don't know were the other guys wen't, I waited and then I worked with what I had.
It came out pretty descent I think.
thanks for your reply,
later
open the tx in hh mode, set the servo with sub-trim with no creep on either side.
no expo, no d/r on the rudder. it work good set like that. ecxept that I have to always
work the tail otherwise it wants to spin slightly. (ccw) pots at 0 on gyro.
maybe you can help with this.
don't know were the other guys wen't, I waited and then I worked with what I had.
It came out pretty descent I think.
thanks for your reply,
later
04-15-2010, 04:27 AM
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RE: EXI-450 discussions/mods/scale projects
ORIGINAL: sly the dogman
I set it up like this : set the servo at 90 by hand, with slider in the middle of the tail shaft,
open the tx in hh mode, set the servo with sub-trim with no creep on either side.
no expo, no d/r on the rudder. it work good set like that. ecxept that I have to always
work the tail otherwise it wants to spin slightly. (ccw) pots at 0 on gyro.
maybe you can help with this.
don't know were the other guys wen't, I waited and then I worked with what I had.
It came out pretty descent I think.
thanks for your reply,
later
I set it up like this : set the servo at 90 by hand, with slider in the middle of the tail shaft,
open the tx in hh mode, set the servo with sub-trim with no creep on either side.
no expo, no d/r on the rudder. it work good set like that. ecxept that I have to always
work the tail otherwise it wants to spin slightly. (ccw) pots at 0 on gyro.
maybe you can help with this.
don't know were the other guys wen't, I waited and then I worked with what I had.
It came out pretty descent I think.
thanks for your reply,
later
04-15-2010, 06:42 AM
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RE: EXI-450 discussions/mods/scale projects
Fly it in rate mode and get it to hover without drift by moving the servo on the boom. Only then should you power up in HH and it should be set. NO SUBTRIM!
04-15-2010, 10:06 AM
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RE: EXI-450 discussions/mods/scale projects
huey,
Where does the "no subtrim" edict come from? I just purchased a Hitec Aurora 9 radio and in the setup instructions they say ' if you need more than 40 clicks of subtrim they recommend changing the arm location. Even in the Finless Bob videos he says some subtrim is fine, that is what it is for.
Also I never see reference to setting up the servo mechanical travel limits talked about. I have just finished setting up three Spartan Quarks on my two 450's and my 500. I now know the difference between cheap gyros and good ones-Wow. They are very specific that before you connect the gyro you set the servo arm ball at a distance that will allow 80° of servo rotation to drive the slider to maximum travel both ways with the end points setat 100%. Only then connect the gyro in rate mode and set the left and right travel limits for the gyro.
Jim
Where does the "no subtrim" edict come from? I just purchased a Hitec Aurora 9 radio and in the setup instructions they say ' if you need more than 40 clicks of subtrim they recommend changing the arm location. Even in the Finless Bob videos he says some subtrim is fine, that is what it is for.
Also I never see reference to setting up the servo mechanical travel limits talked about. I have just finished setting up three Spartan Quarks on my two 450's and my 500. I now know the difference between cheap gyros and good ones-Wow. They are very specific that before you connect the gyro you set the servo arm ball at a distance that will allow 80° of servo rotation to drive the slider to maximum travel both ways with the end points setat 100%. Only then connect the gyro in rate mode and set the left and right travel limits for the gyro.
Jim
04-16-2010, 11:21 AM
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RE: EXI-450 discussions/mods/scale projects
I agree subtrim is ok.. It is just another way to center a servo and doesnt affect the rate of travel in either direction. And since the rudder servo acts indepentantly unlike the cyclic servos I dont see why having the arm off from 90 deg a LITTLE bit would hurt anything.. The cyclics all need to match so that collective stays square but rudder is different IMO..
04-16-2010, 02:18 PM
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RE: EXI-450 discussions/mods/scale projects
In general for any gyro, You are better off if you can get the servo centered w/o subtrim. Yea, it is "ok" with the G401b but not every gyro.
There is a setup with pics you can follow here. Even though it's for the GY48V, it translates to the G401B as well.
http://www.mycoolheli.com/reviews/ReviewGY48v.html
Any piezo gyro is sensitive to vibes by the way, the G401B can be worse if the control board moves too much inside.
Here is a mod that helps the G401B control board not be as sensitive to vibes:
http://www.mycoolheli.com/G401Bmod.html
There is a setup with pics you can follow here. Even though it's for the GY48V, it translates to the G401B as well.
http://www.mycoolheli.com/reviews/ReviewGY48v.html
Any piezo gyro is sensitive to vibes by the way, the G401B can be worse if the control board moves too much inside.
Here is a mod that helps the G401B control board not be as sensitive to vibes:
http://www.mycoolheli.com/G401Bmod.html
04-16-2010, 08:13 PM
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RE: EXI-450 discussions/mods/scale projects
The instructions with my Aurora 9 transmitter does not specify that sub-trim is OK up to 40 clicks on heli rudder control. It says it is fine for ALL channels.
Even then they say they "recommend" relocating the arm no a"Don't do that" statement.
I am relatively new to these computer radios but I get the feeling this "No sub-trim" edict is something from the past and just keeps getting repeated when in fact it is not a issue withsome ofthe new computer radios.
Jim
Even then they say they "recommend" relocating the arm no a"Don't do that" statement.
I am relatively new to these computer radios but I get the feeling this "No sub-trim" edict is something from the past and just keeps getting repeated when in fact it is not a issue withsome ofthe new computer radios.
Jim
04-16-2010, 10:41 PM
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RE: EXI-450 discussions/mods/scale projects
Sub trim does affect the travel of the servo but usually you have more than enough travel to go too far in at least one direction anyway. It's just better if you don't have any subtrim or any other unessecary outside influence on your gyro.
Good gyros are far less sensitive to this.
You don't have to do any of this if you like to correct the tail all of the time.
PS I wouldn't take the directions from the RX manufacture over the ones from the gyro Manufacture either.
Good gyros are far less sensitive to this.
You don't have to do any of this if you like to correct the tail all of the time.
PS I wouldn't take the directions from the RX manufacture over the ones from the gyro Manufacture either.
04-17-2010, 09:16 AM
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RE: EXI-450 discussions/mods/scale projects
huey,
Do you mean that sub-trim is a problem for a G401B that may not be a problem with other gyros. Just trying to understand the differences. There was no mention in my radio manual that some gyros have trouble with sub-trim and others don't.
Jim
Do you mean that sub-trim is a problem for a G401B that may not be a problem with other gyros. Just trying to understand the differences. There was no mention in my radio manual that some gyros have trouble with sub-trim and others don't.
Jim
04-17-2010, 10:46 PM
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RE: EXI-450 discussions/mods/scale projects
It is my experiance that inexpensive gyros need all of the help that they can get. That means no subtrim, expo, revo, or any other radio mix that can confuse it's centering.
Take it for what it's worth.
Good luck, I'm out of here!
Take it for what it's worth.
Good luck, I'm out of here!
04-18-2010, 09:15 PM
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RE: EXI-450 discussions/mods/scale projects
[quote]ORIGINAL: sly the dogman
I set it up like this : set the servo at 90 by hand, with slider in the middle of the tail shaft,
open the tx in hh mode, set the servo with sub-trim with no creep on either side.
no expo, no d/r on the rudder. it work good set like that. ecxept that I have to always
work the tail otherwise it wants to spin slightly. (ccw) pots at 0 on gyro.
maybe you can help with this.
don't know were the other guys wen't, I waited and then I worked with what I had.
It came out pretty descent I think.
thanks for your reply,
later
[/quote
It works, the way I installed it. I followed Finless's vid on the matter.
And it was spinning : a) because the belt was a bit loose b) the tail slider was not centered
Your thoughts are appreciated,
thanks
I set it up like this : set the servo at 90 by hand, with slider in the middle of the tail shaft,
open the tx in hh mode, set the servo with sub-trim with no creep on either side.
no expo, no d/r on the rudder. it work good set like that. ecxept that I have to always
work the tail otherwise it wants to spin slightly. (ccw) pots at 0 on gyro.
maybe you can help with this.
don't know were the other guys wen't, I waited and then I worked with what I had.
It came out pretty descent I think.
thanks for your reply,
later
[/quote
It works, the way I installed it. I followed Finless's vid on the matter.
And it was spinning : a) because the belt was a bit loose b) the tail slider was not centered
Your thoughts are appreciated,
thanks
05-16-2010, 10:20 PM
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RE: EXI-450 discussions/mods/scale projects
Looks like everybody's gone dude, they took the furniture too, see....
last one out locks the door, why ? Wasn't locked when I came in.
So leave it as it is.......ok, later then,
Hey man look, blades man, ahh cheapos, jezzzz,
I'm outa here dude.
Hey man wait up, wait...where's that other forum ? donno man,
I'm going 600 FBL, yea, FB what !!!, can they do that now ???
Come on dude, I'll show you......
last one out locks the door, why ? Wasn't locked when I came in.
So leave it as it is.......ok, later then,
Hey man look, blades man, ahh cheapos, jezzzz,
I'm outa here dude.
Hey man wait up, wait...where's that other forum ? donno man,
I'm going 600 FBL, yea, FB what !!!, can they do that now ???
Come on dude, I'll show you......
05-16-2010, 10:28 PM
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RE: EXI-450 discussions/mods/scale projects
ORIGINAL: sly the dogman
Looks like everybody's gone dude, they took the furniture too, see....
last one out locks the door, why ? Wasn't locked when I came in.
So leave it as it is.......ok, later then,
Looks like everybody's gone dude, they took the furniture too, see....
last one out locks the door, why ? Wasn't locked when I came in.
So leave it as it is.......ok, later then,
05-17-2010, 04:08 AM
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RE: EXI-450 discussions/mods/scale projects
ORIGINAL: crashcrash
We're kinda still here. I just bought the new EXI 450 Pro Carbon Fiber with shaft driven tail...$116 to my door. I'm VERY impressed because all the old probs of belt slippage or rudder servo moving is HISTORY. I pinned the front part of the boom, it won't move either. This thing is smooth as glass and tail authority is second to none. I installed it in one of those Hobby King Bell 206 fuselages....it's all out perfect, and I also installed the Turnigy aircraft light set. I'm super happy with it. Shaft driven tail compared to belt driven tail is what belt driven tail is to electric motor driven tail...it's just that good.
ORIGINAL: sly the dogman
Looks like everybody's gone dude, they took the furniture too, see....
last one out locks the door, why ? Wasn't locked when I came in.
So leave it as it is.......ok, later then,
Looks like everybody's gone dude, they took the furniture too, see....
last one out locks the door, why ? Wasn't locked when I came in.
So leave it as it is.......ok, later then,
05-17-2010, 05:54 AM
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RE: EXI-450 discussions/mods/scale projects
ORIGINAL: scottfl78
Sounds cool. Got pics?
ORIGINAL: crashcrash
We're kinda still here. I just bought the new EXI 450 Pro Carbon Fiber with shaft driven tail...$116 to my door. I'm VERY impressed because all the old probs of belt slippage or rudder servo moving is HISTORY. I pinned the front part of the boom, it won't move either. This thing is smooth as glass and tail authority is second to none. I installed it in one of those Hobby King Bell 206 fuselages....it's all out perfect, and I also installed the Turnigy aircraft light set. I'm super happy with it. Shaft driven tail compared to belt driven tail is what belt driven tail is to electric motor driven tail...it's just that good.
ORIGINAL: sly the dogman
Looks like everybody's gone dude, they took the furniture too, see....
last one out locks the door, why ? Wasn't locked when I came in.
So leave it as it is.......ok, later then,
Looks like everybody's gone dude, they took the furniture too, see....
last one out locks the door, why ? Wasn't locked when I came in.
So leave it as it is.......ok, later then,
Gimme a couple days...I'll thow some pic up. Got to get the daughters digital camera here.
05-17-2010, 07:10 PM
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RE: EXI-450 discussions/mods/scale projects
crashcrash :
In the picture at Xheli of the EXI 450 Pro shaft driven it looks like the servo tray sits low, also does the HS-55's fit it, I have some brand new 3 EMAX MG and 1 EMAX MG digital for the tail size 32x11.5x24mm and are 12 gram that I would like to use on one when I do buy one, will that size be to small for the tail tray ??? and will the other ones be to big for the cylic ???
Thank You
joe1
In the picture at Xheli of the EXI 450 Pro shaft driven it looks like the servo tray sits low, also does the HS-55's fit it, I have some brand new 3 EMAX MG and 1 EMAX MG digital for the tail size 32x11.5x24mm and are 12 gram that I would like to use on one when I do buy one, will that size be to small for the tail tray ??? and will the other ones be to big for the cylic ???
Thank You
joe1
ORIGINAL: crashcrash
Gimme a couple days...I'll thow some pic up. Got to get the daughters digital camera here.
ORIGINAL: scottfl78
Sounds cool. Got pics?
ORIGINAL: crashcrash
We're kinda still here. I just bought the new EXI 450 Pro Carbon Fiber with shaft driven tail...$116 to my door. I'm VERY impressed because all the old probs of belt slippage or rudder servo moving is HISTORY. I pinned the front part of the boom, it won't move either. This thing is smooth as glass and tail authority is second to none. I installed it in one of those Hobby King Bell 206 fuselages....it's all out perfect, and I also installed the Turnigy aircraft light set. I'm super happy with it. Shaft driven tail compared to belt driven tail is what belt driven tail is to electric motor driven tail...it's just that good.
ORIGINAL: sly the dogman
Looks like everybody's gone dude, they took the furniture too, see....
last one out locks the door, why ? Wasn't locked when I came in.
So leave it as it is.......ok, later then,
Looks like everybody's gone dude, they took the furniture too, see....
last one out locks the door, why ? Wasn't locked when I came in.
So leave it as it is.......ok, later then,
Gimme a couple days...I'll thow some pic up. Got to get the daughters digital camera here.
05-17-2010, 07:23 PM
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RE: EXI-450 discussions/mods/scale projects
ORIGINAL: joe1
crashcrash :
In the picture at Xheli of the EXI 450 Pro shaft driven it looks like the servo tray sits low, also does the HS-55's fit it, I have some brand new 3 EMAX MG and 1 EMAX MG digital for the tail size 32x11.5x24mm and are 12 gram that I would like to use on one when I do buy one, will that size be to small for the tail tray ??? and will the other ones be to big for the cylic ???
Thank You
joe1
crashcrash :
In the picture at Xheli of the EXI 450 Pro shaft driven it looks like the servo tray sits low, also does the HS-55's fit it, I have some brand new 3 EMAX MG and 1 EMAX MG digital for the tail size 32x11.5x24mm and are 12 gram that I would like to use on one when I do buy one, will that size be to small for the tail tray ??? and will the other ones be to big for the cylic ???
Thank You
joe1
ORIGINAL: crashcrash
Gimme a couple days...I'll thow some pic up. Got to get the daughters digital camera here.
ORIGINAL: scottfl78
Sounds cool. Got pics?
ORIGINAL: crashcrash
We're kinda still here. I just bought the new EXI 450 Pro Carbon Fiber with shaft driven tail...$116 to my door. I'm VERY impressed because all the old probs of belt slippage or rudder servo moving is HISTORY. I pinned the front part of the boom, it won't move either. This thing is smooth as glass and tail authority is second to none. I installed it in one of those Hobby King Bell 206 fuselages....it's all out perfect, and I also installed the Turnigy aircraft light set. I'm super happy with it. Shaft driven tail compared to belt driven tail is what belt driven tail is to electric motor driven tail...it's just that good.
ORIGINAL: sly the dogman
Looks like everybody's gone dude, they took the furniture too, see....
last one out locks the door, why ? Wasn't locked when I came in.
So leave it as it is.......ok, later then,
Looks like everybody's gone dude, they took the furniture too, see....
last one out locks the door, why ? Wasn't locked when I came in.
So leave it as it is.......ok, later then,
Gimme a couple days...I'll thow some pic up. Got to get the daughters digital camera here.
05-17-2010, 11:59 PM
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RE: EXI-450 discussions/mods/scale projects
Hi crashcrash :=}
I thought the tail mount looked low and a big opening, my luck I bought them because everyone was saying that the HS-55's would strip in the least little crash.
I have older standard servo's and about 2 free HiTech MG 82's but from what I've read the tail needs a digital servo and I know I could not get my HB730 HH gyro to work very good with the 82's .
I may have to just have to make a adapter plate also, thank you for the info.
joe1
I thought the tail mount looked low and a big opening, my luck I bought them because everyone was saying that the HS-55's would strip in the least little crash.
I have older standard servo's and about 2 free HiTech MG 82's but from what I've read the tail needs a digital servo and I know I could not get my HB730 HH gyro to work very good with the 82's .
I may have to just have to make a adapter plate also, thank you for the info.
joe1
05-18-2010, 10:22 PM
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RE: EXI-450 discussions/mods/scale projects
see, I knew they'd be back,
Scotch taped the end of the boom that goes in the block, it might stop the thing from slipping. And I installed a GY 401, holds better than anything I had before, nice.
And couple of other things to, no bling thought. Still at the hovering stages, but
I'm pleased with what I see, the thing is solid.
later...
Scotch taped the end of the boom that goes in the block, it might stop the thing from slipping. And I installed a GY 401, holds better than anything I had before, nice.
And couple of other things to, no bling thought. Still at the hovering stages, but
I'm pleased with what I see, the thing is solid.
later...
05-18-2010, 10:53 PM
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RE: EXI-450 discussions/mods/scale projects
ORIGINAL: sly the dogman
see, I knew they'd be back,
Scotch taped the end of the boom that goes in the block, it might stop the thing from slipping. And I installed a GY 401, holds better than anything I had before, nice.
And couple of other things to, no bling thought. Still at the hovering stages, but
I'm pleased with what I see, the thing is solid.
later...
see, I knew they'd be back,
Scotch taped the end of the boom that goes in the block, it might stop the thing from slipping. And I installed a GY 401, holds better than anything I had before, nice.
And couple of other things to, no bling thought. Still at the hovering stages, but
I'm pleased with what I see, the thing is solid.
later...
The hole he was talking about was the rudder servo tray attached to the rear of the EXI450 Pro shaft edition. It's too big for a standard 9G servo. Looks like a JR 285 might fit good though. I just made a couple adapter plates and stuck a 9G servo in that tray anyway. So far...I'm really happy with shaft drive on the tail. I like that nothing moves...it's all stationary, rudder servo, boom, nothing moves cause it's pinned or bolted down.
05-18-2010, 11:34 PM
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RE: EXI-450 discussions/mods/scale projects
ORIGINAL: noobflyer01
i have no issues with the gy401 and 9650 or 9257. both works fantastic with the gy401. the 9257 is faster than the 9650 but its hard to tell when you're flying it. when i say fantastic i mean it. Not even the slightest amount of draft. its like laser lock
the logitech 2100T is also an excellent choice. its 40 bucks less than the gy but its a little more complicated to setup. it does however offer something the gy401 doesnt....independant left and right travel limit. This bird is by far the best bang for the buck. sometimes xheli have special offers that you can get the kit for 69 bucks[X(]
its more like flips and rolls. but i just recently learned loops. all those tricks was done stationary. its real easy once you do one. doing loops is a bit more difficult...you have to get forward flight then pull back on cyclic increasing collective as it climbs . collective should be neutral as its going inverted. increase collective just a tad as it completes the loop.. i actually watched finless on that move and practiced it on the sim. it actually worked for me perfectly. flips are the easiest. rolls are easy too. its all collective management.
in the 2 vids one shows me having a hard time with the tail. that was the telebee gyro. the one with the flips is with the gy401. that much of a difference
i have no issues with the gy401 and 9650 or 9257. both works fantastic with the gy401. the 9257 is faster than the 9650 but its hard to tell when you're flying it. when i say fantastic i mean it. Not even the slightest amount of draft. its like laser lock
the logitech 2100T is also an excellent choice. its 40 bucks less than the gy but its a little more complicated to setup. it does however offer something the gy401 doesnt....independant left and right travel limit. This bird is by far the best bang for the buck. sometimes xheli have special offers that you can get the kit for 69 bucks[X(]its more like flips and rolls. but i just recently learned loops. all those tricks was done stationary. its real easy once you do one. doing loops is a bit more difficult...you have to get forward flight then pull back on cyclic increasing collective as it climbs . collective should be neutral as its going inverted. increase collective just a tad as it completes the loop.
. i actually watched finless on that move and practiced it on the sim. it actually worked for me perfectly. flips are the easiest. rolls are easy too. its all collective management.in the 2 vids one shows me having a hard time with the tail. that was the telebee gyro. the one with the flips is with the gy401. that much of a difference
05-19-2010, 12:30 AM
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RE: EXI-450 discussions/mods/scale projects
ORIGINAL: nismo_900
That would be a Logi*C*tech...I was getting excited thinking that Logitech has gotten into the RC business...They make great computer peripherals and it would be crazy to see them make heli parts
ORIGINAL: noobflyer01
i have no issues with the gy401 and 9650 or 9257. both works fantastic with the gy401. the 9257 is faster than the 9650 but its hard to tell when you're flying it. when i say fantastic i mean it. Not even the slightest amount of draft. its like laser lock the logitech 2100T is also an excellent choice. its 40 bucks less than the gy but its a little more complicated to setup. it does however offer something the gy401 doesnt....independant left and right travel limit. This bird is by far the best bang for the buck. sometimes xheli have special offers that you can get the kit for 69 bucks[X(]
its more like flips and rolls. but i just recently learned loops. all those tricks was done stationary. its real easy once you do one. doing loops is a bit more difficult...you have to get forward flight then pull back on cyclic increasing collective as it climbs . collective should be neutral as its going inverted. increase collective just a tad as it completes the loop.. i actually watched finless on that move and practiced it on the sim. it actually worked for me perfectly. flips are the easiest. rolls are easy too. its all collective management.
in the 2 vids one shows me having a hard time with the tail. that was the telebee gyro. the one with the flips is with the gy401. that much of a difference
i have no issues with the gy401 and 9650 or 9257. both works fantastic with the gy401. the 9257 is faster than the 9650 but its hard to tell when you're flying it. when i say fantastic i mean it. Not even the slightest amount of draft. its like laser lock
the logitech 2100T is also an excellent choice. its 40 bucks less than the gy but its a little more complicated to setup. it does however offer something the gy401 doesnt....independant left and right travel limit. This bird is by far the best bang for the buck. sometimes xheli have special offers that you can get the kit for 69 bucks[X(]its more like flips and rolls. but i just recently learned loops. all those tricks was done stationary. its real easy once you do one. doing loops is a bit more difficult...you have to get forward flight then pull back on cyclic increasing collective as it climbs . collective should be neutral as its going inverted. increase collective just a tad as it completes the loop.
. i actually watched finless on that move and practiced it on the sim. it actually worked for me perfectly. flips are the easiest. rolls are easy too. its all collective management.in the 2 vids one shows me having a hard time with the tail. that was the telebee gyro. the one with the flips is with the gy401. that much of a difference
Logitec only deals with low tech stuff....LOL.