Zagi-60
01-21-2005, 10:59 PM
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Zagi-60
Anyone tried one of these yet? I kind of like the idea of a laid back Zagi. I've had a 400X and a 400XS. I actually liked the 400X better in some ways (more user friendly to launch) but recognize the superior design of the XS.
If you went brushless and used a lightweight lipoly I'll be the Zagi-60 would be a good thermaller.
If you went brushless and used a lightweight lipoly I'll be the Zagi-60 would be a good thermaller.
01-25-2005, 02:20 PM
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RE: Zagi-60
Just ordered a Zagi 60, should arrive this week. The plan is to use a Mega 400 5-turn brushless, 1900 3S TP LiPo and 7.5X4 CAM folding prop.
My intention is to build an indestructible thermal plane with reasonable climb rate and some aerobatics possibilities.
Will keep you posted on the progress- any suggestions on build or power set up will be welcome.
My intention is to build an indestructible thermal plane with reasonable climb rate and some aerobatics possibilities.
Will keep you posted on the progress- any suggestions on build or power set up will be welcome.
01-25-2005, 04:08 PM
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RE: Zagi-60
I was just going to use Zagi's brushless motor but don't know how it compares to some of the others. I have 3 Mega motors with gear reduction on other park flyers and am happy with them. Are you using the full length Mega?
I ran your motor, battery, prop combo through Motocalc and get 26.5 ounces of thrust at 21 Amps. That actually looks pretty good. You'll have to cut out the rear to fit the prop. Any of the smaller typical Zagi props (5x5) fare pretty poorly.
When you get the kit please update this thread with your thoughts.
I ran your motor, battery, prop combo through Motocalc and get 26.5 ounces of thrust at 21 Amps. That actually looks pretty good. You'll have to cut out the rear to fit the prop. Any of the smaller typical Zagi props (5x5) fare pretty poorly.
When you get the kit please update this thread with your thoughts.
01-25-2005, 04:50 PM
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RE: Zagi-60
hey tweet thanks for your thoughts on the power setup. Good to know you too came to the conclusion that it should work! Yes, I'm using the full length mega without gearbox.
Hobby Lobby has a good table of 'examples' for the mega motors with different props. (check http://www.hobby-lobby.com/mega_brushless.htm)
"5 turn: 12,800 RPM direct drive with 7x4 prop, 8 cells, 16 Amps, 23 oz. thrust"
It is likely that (as in your calculation) I draw a little more amps because of slightly bigger prop. But the 1900 TP LiPoly should be able to handle that easily. 10-15C = no problem.
Can't wait to see how it really flies. Zagi and thermaling is not something that intuitively I thought would go together, but with that wing area (3.6 sq ft) and lightweight construction, it really should work. I have to admit it's kind of an experiment after coming to the conclusion that my two other models (Mig15 Jet and 8ft hotliner) are somewhat demanding to fly and I'm looking for some relaxation without having to be concerned about hard landings or the likes... well this is my first EPP project. Primary objective is maximum fun. Will keep you updated how it goes.
Hobby Lobby has a good table of 'examples' for the mega motors with different props. (check http://www.hobby-lobby.com/mega_brushless.htm)
"5 turn: 12,800 RPM direct drive with 7x4 prop, 8 cells, 16 Amps, 23 oz. thrust"
It is likely that (as in your calculation) I draw a little more amps because of slightly bigger prop. But the 1900 TP LiPoly should be able to handle that easily. 10-15C = no problem.
Can't wait to see how it really flies. Zagi and thermaling is not something that intuitively I thought would go together, but with that wing area (3.6 sq ft) and lightweight construction, it really should work. I have to admit it's kind of an experiment after coming to the conclusion that my two other models (Mig15 Jet and 8ft hotliner) are somewhat demanding to fly and I'm looking for some relaxation without having to be concerned about hard landings or the likes... well this is my first EPP project. Primary objective is maximum fun. Will keep you updated how it goes.
01-25-2005, 07:40 PM
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RE: Zagi-60
Blueaction,
I'm not sure about 15C continuous on those batteries...
If I can fit a TP3200 I probably will just to be safe. You're ahead of me though and I'll wait for your report.
I'm not sure about 15C continuous on those batteries...
If I can fit a TP3200 I probably will just to be safe. You're ahead of me though and I'll wait for your report.
01-31-2005, 12:00 AM
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RE: Zagi-60
Here we go! Kit arrived on Friday, built on Saturday, went flying Sunday at dawn!
Assembly was straightforward; followed instructions.
Used the following set up:
- Zagi-60 stock kit
- Mega 16/15/5 motor
- Jeti 40A controller
- ThunderPower 1900mAh LiPo
- Graupner CAM folding prop 6.3X3 (decided to go for smaller prop to stay within 20A envelope of motor and 10-12C continuous discharge of battery)
According to motorcalc, this should provide 22Oz static thrust / 19Oz in-flight@50mph, 117W output at 13 A max discharge rate. Might be a little slower than stock setup with 5X5 prop, but much more thrust = better climb and lower power consumption. Expected to save at least 3-4 ounces compared to stock NiMH setup (manufacturer specified flying weight for stock setup is 34Oz)
Couple of small modifications (see pictures):
- Cut out rear to accomodate larger prop
- Extended electronics bay 1" to the front to locate battery more forward - only way to obtain CG with LiPo!
- Mounted prop blades other way round for pushing prop
- Rubber band in folding prop spinner to avoid crossing of the blades when folded
Total flying weight, including battery, came out at 813g or 28.7 Oz - compared to 34 Oz as specified by manufacturer- reduced wing loading should give better thermaling performance!
First impressions:
As recommended in instructions, I threw the model without power to trim. It was much more elevator-sensitive than expected! This is my first flying wing, but the first couple of un-powered flights I must have looked like an absoulute RC beginner, over-compensating pitch and oscillating up/down. After 4 throws and a little trim right and back, I finally got used to it and managed to land it, gliding. In the meantime, the other folks at the field must have thought of me as 'another newbie with an EPP wing' per my poor performance.
Finally, at fifth throw, I opened the throttle and let it climb out. Easy to launch, plenty of time to power on while in the air. Aileron / roll control was much more what I expected with reasonable, good response. With increasing speed, elevator response was ridiculously sensitive. Will have to dial in some expo for future flights.
Climb rate was, as expected, very good. At one point, I pointed the model 45 degrees into the sky straight away from me, and opened the throttle. Watching the contour getting smaller slowly, I let it climb out. When I made the first turn after about 15 sec climb, I realized how hight this thing was- just a little point in the sky! Good opportunity to try gliding performance. Trimmed it out and circled down for a couple of minutes. Amazing how slowly this thing can fly! Coming down, I went to about 25% throttle, which seems to be enough to not only sustain but slowly climb up.
After 15 minutes, I decided it was time to practice approaches. What a challenge- this thing floats forever! (Some may be surprised as it is considered common practice for Zagi-landings to point the nose down until a 'TOC' sound can be heard- but I wanted to prove a Zagi can be landed just like any other airplane).
It is a good idea to select a field with plenty length for the first couple of flights. It took me 200-300ft to get it down. May have to do with practice, but it really floats.
After 20 min of flight and succesful landing, I re-charded and put 800 mA back into the battery- not even half empty!
Second flight followed, later in the day and with the objective to try thermalling. Programmed 50% expo for elevator control - feels much better! Soared around and managed to find a small bubble and stay at altitude for about 5 minutes without engine. With more practice, it would most likely be possible to make better use of it. At one point, I stalled it in a turn and it started to do kind of a spin- scary! With elevator down and aileron against turn was able to recover after 3 or 4 revolutions. Need more practice. Second flight was 15 minutes total, with 730 mA used.
Will have to try more. 30-40 min flights should be no problem.
Overall, I am very happy with this model. It is fun and relaxing to fly, and should be able to thermal with a little practice. Climb is excellent, aerobatics are easy. Top speed is impressive. Elevator is very very sensitive and landing is a challenge due to glide rate.
More to come!
Assembly was straightforward; followed instructions.
Used the following set up:
- Zagi-60 stock kit
- Mega 16/15/5 motor
- Jeti 40A controller
- ThunderPower 1900mAh LiPo
- Graupner CAM folding prop 6.3X3 (decided to go for smaller prop to stay within 20A envelope of motor and 10-12C continuous discharge of battery)
According to motorcalc, this should provide 22Oz static thrust / 19Oz in-flight@50mph, 117W output at 13 A max discharge rate. Might be a little slower than stock setup with 5X5 prop, but much more thrust = better climb and lower power consumption. Expected to save at least 3-4 ounces compared to stock NiMH setup (manufacturer specified flying weight for stock setup is 34Oz)
Couple of small modifications (see pictures):
- Cut out rear to accomodate larger prop
- Extended electronics bay 1" to the front to locate battery more forward - only way to obtain CG with LiPo!
- Mounted prop blades other way round for pushing prop
- Rubber band in folding prop spinner to avoid crossing of the blades when folded
Total flying weight, including battery, came out at 813g or 28.7 Oz - compared to 34 Oz as specified by manufacturer- reduced wing loading should give better thermaling performance!
First impressions:
As recommended in instructions, I threw the model without power to trim. It was much more elevator-sensitive than expected! This is my first flying wing, but the first couple of un-powered flights I must have looked like an absoulute RC beginner, over-compensating pitch and oscillating up/down. After 4 throws and a little trim right and back, I finally got used to it and managed to land it, gliding. In the meantime, the other folks at the field must have thought of me as 'another newbie with an EPP wing' per my poor performance.
Finally, at fifth throw, I opened the throttle and let it climb out. Easy to launch, plenty of time to power on while in the air. Aileron / roll control was much more what I expected with reasonable, good response. With increasing speed, elevator response was ridiculously sensitive. Will have to dial in some expo for future flights.
Climb rate was, as expected, very good. At one point, I pointed the model 45 degrees into the sky straight away from me, and opened the throttle. Watching the contour getting smaller slowly, I let it climb out. When I made the first turn after about 15 sec climb, I realized how hight this thing was- just a little point in the sky! Good opportunity to try gliding performance. Trimmed it out and circled down for a couple of minutes. Amazing how slowly this thing can fly! Coming down, I went to about 25% throttle, which seems to be enough to not only sustain but slowly climb up.
After 15 minutes, I decided it was time to practice approaches. What a challenge- this thing floats forever! (Some may be surprised as it is considered common practice for Zagi-landings to point the nose down until a 'TOC' sound can be heard- but I wanted to prove a Zagi can be landed just like any other airplane).
It is a good idea to select a field with plenty length for the first couple of flights. It took me 200-300ft to get it down. May have to do with practice, but it really floats.
After 20 min of flight and succesful landing, I re-charded and put 800 mA back into the battery- not even half empty!
Second flight followed, later in the day and with the objective to try thermalling. Programmed 50% expo for elevator control - feels much better! Soared around and managed to find a small bubble and stay at altitude for about 5 minutes without engine. With more practice, it would most likely be possible to make better use of it. At one point, I stalled it in a turn and it started to do kind of a spin- scary! With elevator down and aileron against turn was able to recover after 3 or 4 revolutions. Need more practice. Second flight was 15 minutes total, with 730 mA used.
Will have to try more. 30-40 min flights should be no problem.
Overall, I am very happy with this model. It is fun and relaxing to fly, and should be able to thermal with a little practice. Climb is excellent, aerobatics are easy. Top speed is impressive. Elevator is very very sensitive and landing is a challenge due to glide rate.
More to come!
01-31-2005, 12:16 PM
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RE: Zagi-60
Blue Action,
Excellent writeup...I'm definitely bookmarking this thread for when I build mine.
I had a Zagi 400X and flew it quite a bit. The Zagis do like to float and the Zagi 60 will float even more, but I ended up getting pretty good at putting the airplane down on a spot after some practice.
I was thinking the TP2100-3S, but with the cutout that you had to add to balance it looks like the profile of the 1900 is better...
When I run the numbers through Motocalc it looks like the 7x4 prop would draw about 18.5 amps, awfully close to the limit of the battery. Did you measure the actual current draw? For some reason my numbers with the 6x3.3 did not work out the same as yours...anyway after playing around with things a bit I think your setup is nearly ideal...the only thing I might do differently is to try the 7x4 prop...
Enjoy the Zagi. They are a lot of fun and you can fly them in almost any wind condition.
Excellent writeup...I'm definitely bookmarking this thread for when I build mine.
I had a Zagi 400X and flew it quite a bit. The Zagis do like to float and the Zagi 60 will float even more, but I ended up getting pretty good at putting the airplane down on a spot after some practice.
I was thinking the TP2100-3S, but with the cutout that you had to add to balance it looks like the profile of the 1900 is better...
When I run the numbers through Motocalc it looks like the 7x4 prop would draw about 18.5 amps, awfully close to the limit of the battery. Did you measure the actual current draw? For some reason my numbers with the 6x3.3 did not work out the same as yours...anyway after playing around with things a bit I think your setup is nearly ideal...the only thing I might do differently is to try the 7x4 prop...
Enjoy the Zagi. They are a lot of fun and you can fly them in almost any wind condition.
01-31-2005, 12:27 PM
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RE: Zagi-60
yes, 7X4 prop would work, but I don't know of a 7X4 folding prop. There's a 7.5X4 Graupner CAM folding, but that's over 21 Amps and therefore too much for the motor. Another idea would be to use a 6X6 - if you have the need for speed!
I use this calculator: http://brantuas.com/ezcalc/dma1.asp
Haven't actually measured the amps, as my meter only goes to 10 Amps max [
].
Anyway, It flies so well and provides so much flight time I'll just leave it like it is. Might try the 6X6 some time.
I use this calculator: http://brantuas.com/ezcalc/dma1.asp
Haven't actually measured the amps, as my meter only goes to 10 Amps max [
]. Anyway, It flies so well and provides so much flight time I'll just leave it like it is. Might try the 6X6 some time.
01-31-2005, 12:45 PM
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RE: Zagi-60
APC makes a 7x4 folding. http://www.apcprop.com/
Anyway, 7x4 or 6x3 it sounds like you have a great flying airplane and a nice combination which I plan to copy. It's great to get the numbers from the program but even better when someone proves them out!
I have the Astroflight Whattmeter...great if you're really into the electrics.
I'm looking forward to my new Zagi.
Anyway, 7x4 or 6x3 it sounds like you have a great flying airplane and a nice combination which I plan to copy. It's great to get the numbers from the program but even better when someone proves them out!
I have the Astroflight Whattmeter...great if you're really into the electrics.
I'm looking forward to my new Zagi.
01-31-2005, 02:11 PM
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RE: Zagi-60
sorry, no video right now. Got a camera but challenge is to find somebody who can operate it with reasonable outcome. Wanna stop by Fatal?
For now, here's a pic of it flying at altitude. Sorry for the lousy quality. Just imagine it flies like a big light glider. Can go nice and really slow, and that's how I fly it most of the time. It looks somewhat like a big bird when thermaling, like an eagle or something like that.
Just returned from a 35 min flight with some better thermaling. Finally figured out how to keep the nose up while turning by pulling back slightly after initiating the turn. Like that I get nice even circles. Battery is recharging. Is it possible to stay in the air for an hour? I will try later today.
For now, here's a pic of it flying at altitude. Sorry for the lousy quality. Just imagine it flies like a big light glider. Can go nice and really slow, and that's how I fly it most of the time. It looks somewhat like a big bird when thermaling, like an eagle or something like that.
Just returned from a 35 min flight with some better thermaling. Finally figured out how to keep the nose up while turning by pulling back slightly after initiating the turn. Like that I get nice even circles. Battery is recharging. Is it possible to stay in the air for an hour? I will try later today.
01-31-2005, 04:03 PM
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RE: Zagi-60
Pretty exciting project. It will be interesting to see how well it thermals and how long you can stay up. And now is not the best time for thermalling, even in Mountain View.
Hey, is that one of the wind tunnels at Nasa Ames in your icon?
Hey, is that one of the wind tunnels at Nasa Ames in your icon?
01-31-2005, 09:59 PM
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RE: Zagi-60
Blue action where is Mountain View? I'm in Augora Hills, Oak Park area. Where do you fly? I've been flying Zagi's for over a year in a half, and they're awesome wings.
02-01-2005, 11:34 AM
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RE: Zagi-60
Thermal season will be here soon, even in stable-high-pressure prone California flat land!! Best months will be March/April. But there can be good days in Jan/Feb, too. [I fly full-scale gliders, too, so I observe the weather pattern pretty closely]
Read up yesterday on covering EPP wings. It seems there are much better options than the stock tape. It is somewhat wrinkly. The surface is just not really smooth, especially on the leading edges []. With the smoother surface of an iron-on plastic cover, it should fly even better. Ordered some Coverite yesterday. Project for one of the coming weekends: re-cover! If you guys start out fresh, I'd recommend to do that right from the beginning. Will let you know how it works out, also in terms of weight.
In the meantime, will try to achieve 1 hour flight time. Didn't work out yesterday.
Mountain View is at the south end of San Francisco Bay. I fly at Baylands park, which is next to Moffet field / NASA Ames center. Hey that's not a wind tunnel, it's a Mig-15 (my other model).
Read up yesterday on covering EPP wings. It seems there are much better options than the stock tape. It is somewhat wrinkly. The surface is just not really smooth, especially on the leading edges [
]. With the smoother surface of an iron-on plastic cover, it should fly even better. Ordered some Coverite yesterday. Project for one of the coming weekends: re-cover! If you guys start out fresh, I'd recommend to do that right from the beginning. Will let you know how it works out, also in terms of weight.In the meantime, will try to achieve 1 hour flight time. Didn't work out yesterday.
Mountain View is at the south end of San Francisco Bay. I fly at Baylands park, which is next to Moffet field / NASA Ames center. Hey that's not a wind tunnel, it's a Mig-15 (my other model).
02-01-2005, 11:54 AM
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RE: Zagi-60
If applied very well, the tape shouldn't wrinkle. A buddy of mine has a very nice looking wing with tape, w/ no wrinkles. Though heat shrink film is probally the best way to go. I've heard alot of good things about ultracote, and how well it works on EPP.
South francicso bay!!! umm.... thats kinda far...(5 hours far lol) I'm in Ventura County...
South francicso bay!!! umm.... thats kinda far...(5 hours far lol) I'm in Ventura County...
02-01-2005, 12:15 PM
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RE: Zagi-60
It was hard to tell from the picture. I've spent some time at Ames.
Let us know how the covering goes. I've used tape on my other Zagis but would be open to using iron on covering.
I also have done some full scale sailplane and really enjoy that aspect of aviation.
Let us know how the covering goes. I've used tape on my other Zagis but would be open to using iron on covering.
I also have done some full scale sailplane and really enjoy that aspect of aviation.
02-01-2005, 09:05 PM
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RE: Zagi-60
The 60 should be a happy flyer....
When you are ready to open up the speed....
Switch to a Mega 16/15/3 or Himaxx 2815/3000 I run both of these on all oy my wings....
Use a 6x5.5 Gruapner and things are really snappy.
Of ya I am Zagi_Nut in other groups and will be hosting this years WING-FEST 05.1 in Texas...
http://www.wing-fest05.kokosworld.com
Pass the word..
Koko/ Zagi_Nut
When you are ready to open up the speed....
Switch to a Mega 16/15/3 or Himaxx 2815/3000 I run both of these on all oy my wings....
Use a 6x5.5 Gruapner and things are really snappy.
Of ya I am Zagi_Nut in other groups and will be hosting this years WING-FEST 05.1 in Texas...
http://www.wing-fest05.kokosworld.com
Pass the word..
Koko/ Zagi_Nut
02-07-2005, 12:12 PM
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RE: Zagi-60
Hi guys, quick update on my Zagi-60.
Last week, I made several flights with 40-45 minutes. This was without real thermals, but just climbing until I could hardly see it any more, and gliding down trying to find areas with least sink and 'thermaling' without thermals just for practice. Love the plane, still flies nice. The only thing on the negative side is that the stall characteristics are somewhat nasty. When you stall it in a turn, it will almost certainly go into kind of a spin and fall down like a dry deaf. It is possible to recover after a couple of turns with stick forward and power on, but you lose altitude and don't want do do this close to the ground!
On the weekend, I finished re-covering it with Iron-on Coverite. It looks very sharp now. Surface is much smoother than with the original tape covering. Weight increased by 19g or .67oz to total flying weight (incl battery) of 832g or 29.3oz. It should be well worth it! I would recommend some form of iron-on covering to anybody building this bird. Just make sure you get some covering material that works at low temp (<300F).
Will post some pics and report of test flights with new covering later this week.
Last week, I made several flights with 40-45 minutes. This was without real thermals, but just climbing until I could hardly see it any more, and gliding down trying to find areas with least sink and 'thermaling' without thermals just for practice. Love the plane, still flies nice. The only thing on the negative side is that the stall characteristics are somewhat nasty. When you stall it in a turn, it will almost certainly go into kind of a spin and fall down like a dry deaf. It is possible to recover after a couple of turns with stick forward and power on, but you lose altitude and don't want do do this close to the ground!
On the weekend, I finished re-covering it with Iron-on Coverite. It looks very sharp now. Surface is much smoother than with the original tape covering. Weight increased by 19g or .67oz to total flying weight (incl battery) of 832g or 29.3oz. It should be well worth it! I would recommend some form of iron-on covering to anybody building this bird. Just make sure you get some covering material that works at low temp (<300F).
Will post some pics and report of test flights with new covering later this week.
02-12-2005, 12:19 AM
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RE: Zagi-60
Recently finished my Zagi 60. Motor is Mega 16/15/5, 35 amp CC ESC, APC 7X5E Prop. Current battery 10 cell Pack of Sanyo 1950FAUP. I used wider elevons and coroplast winglets. Covering is Ultracote. Flew it this afternoon and it was very smooth and a pleasure to fly. Not my fastest wing with this battery but fast enough with good vertical. Very tight loops, maybe due to wider elevons, aerobatics were easy and fun with this wing. First impressions of the Zagi 60 are very good.
Ron
Ron
02-12-2005, 01:20 PM
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RE: Zagi-60
Hi Ron, congratulations and nice job with the elevons and winglets. Looks great. Is your prop a fixed or folding prop?
Here are some pics after re-covering mine with Coverite. The other day I caught a thermal and could easily stay up for about 10 minutes with engine off. Maximum total flight time so far was 52 Minutes (about 80% engine off).
Note the grey spot on the nose. That's a M5 nut, and this is where the camera will go. See you around in the aerial photography forums!
Dan
Here are some pics after re-covering mine with Coverite. The other day I caught a thermal and could easily stay up for about 10 minutes with engine off. Maximum total flight time so far was 52 Minutes (about 80% engine off).
Note the grey spot on the nose. That's a M5 nut, and this is where the camera will go. See you around in the aerial photography forums!
Dan
02-12-2005, 08:31 PM
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RE: Zagi-60
Dan,
Prop is a fixed prop. I don't have any folding props. Your new covering looks really good. Guess I need a little trim on mine or maybe some decals. The little cameras look interesting.
Which one do you have?
Ron
Prop is a fixed prop. I don't have any folding props. Your new covering looks really good. Guess I need a little trim on mine or maybe some decals. The little cameras look interesting.
Which one do you have?
Ron
02-13-2005, 04:59 PM
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RE: Zagi-60
Hi Ron,
I use the Aiptek SD 1.3 camera. I got in on ebay for $30, and I put in the microcontroller from Mr. RC CAM for $6. It works great. First flight today was a succes. The zagi 60 easily carries the camera!
I use the Aiptek SD 1.3 camera. I got in on ebay for $30, and I put in the microcontroller from Mr. RC CAM for $6. It works great. First flight today was a succes. The zagi 60 easily carries the camera!