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Here's a Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! Cool Looking Plane Too...

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Here's a Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! Cool Looking Plane Too...

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Old 10-12-2007, 12:49 PM
  #1501  
ggunners
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Default RE: Here's a Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! Cool Looking Plane Too...

Fisher,

I can tighten up the loop, but it will tighten it up in both inside and outside loops.

I'm not so sure the issued with an outside loop is overcoming the airfoil. A couple things you might want to check is how closely aligned your wing and horizontal stab are. I see in the build docs, they should almost be aligned when looking at the front. Also, check the travel of the elevator for both up and down and see if they are the same number of degrees when measured with a protractor. It could also be possible that the speed of the descent in the outside loop is causing a servo to be less effective.

In FMS, degree of deflection for control surfaces is one number for both up and down.

Follow links above to new .par/model files.

-- ggunners
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Old 10-12-2007, 03:14 PM
  #1502  
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Default RE: Here's a Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! Cool Looking Plane Too...

ggunners,

Thanks. The model is great as is. I will take a look at the real world build for control surface issues.


saucerguy,

My setup uses a 3s 2000 mah LiPo and a BP-21 brushless motor. So the current model is pretty much right on with regard to speed and response compared to my build. It might be worth while to provide a second model that better mirrors the orinal brushed motor and NiMh battery setup Foamflyer specifies. But I would not change the existing model at all as is reflects brushless/LiPo setup very well.

Cheers,
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Old 10-12-2007, 03:15 PM
  #1503  
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Default RE: Here's a Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! Cool Looking Plane Too...

New Par file is attached, this is closer to how this plane performs, I'll mess with it a little more later on. RCU won't let me upload it as a .par file so I had to rename it to a .txt file, after downloading it, rename it to the So.11.par and copy it into the fms/model folder replacing the original one.
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Old 10-12-2007, 03:45 PM
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Default RE: Here's a Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! Cool Looking Plane Too...

Thanks saucerguy,

Have put the changes up on the web site.

[link=http://gunnerson.homestead.com/files/So.11.par]New So.11.par file[/link].

[link=http://gunnerson.homestead.com/files/So.11.zip]New So.11.zip file[/link].

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Old 10-12-2007, 04:10 PM
  #1505  
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Default RE: Here's a Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! Cool Looking Plane Too...

I just messed with the motor specs, I still want to slow it down a bit more, I'll adjust it more with the rest of the plane, I've never messed with a par file too much so am basically hacking my way through it. It does help actually flying the plane with the final revisions to it, that and I've used several different power sources.
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Old 10-12-2007, 08:19 PM
  #1506  
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Default RE: Here's a Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! Cool Looking Plane Too...

That is quite a file[X(]
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Old 10-17-2007, 01:23 PM
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Default RE: Here's a Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! Cool Looking Plane Too...

Just popped in for a quick skim of the thread. Glad to see it's still alive and kicking. I haven't been on the web much lately, let alone messed with my planes, so don't think I've given up on this bird or the thread. When time and motivation permits I'll be back on again. Big'N still hasn't been fixed since it's maiden but sooner or later I'll have an update on that. Nice job on the flight simulator SO plane, by the way.
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Old 10-17-2007, 08:17 PM
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Default RE: Here's a Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! Cool Looking Plane Too...


ORIGINAL: critterhunter

Just popped in for a quick skim of the thread. Glad to see it's still alive and kicking. I haven't been on the web much lately, let alone messed with my planes, so don't think I've given up on this bird or the thread. When time and motivation permits I'll be back on again. Big'N still hasn't been fixed since it's maiden but sooner or later I'll have an update on that. Nice job on the flight simulator SO plane, by the way.
ah, get the plane working man, so cool, stop procrastinating on a job that could take like 10 minutes to do [8D]
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Old 11-02-2007, 11:18 AM
  #1509  
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Default RE: Here's a Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! Cool Looking Plane Too...

Yea, I know...:')

Hey, Saucerguy, Email me an update on what we've been talking about privately. Don't think I replied to your last Email but want to hear more. Nothing new here...Except a friend I build with just threw together a tutorial I think you guys will get a kick out of on hot wire building. I'll throw up a link to it since it jells nice with what we are doing in this thread. He just threw me together an AP body with a 3 to 4 foot winspan for my AP equipment (wide wing so wing loading will be low). I mentioned Big'N won't work well for me being by myself to do some AP work since it's so big and would need a ground take off without somebody throwing it. That was enough for him to spring into action and throw me something together. This guy builds quicker than anybody I've ever seen. Maybe not the prettiest planes, but they work. Don't worry, Big'N still will be used. I'm just planning to try to make some side money doing some AP work and need something smaller I can hand launch when alone.

Anybody ever look into doing AP work for money?
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Old 11-02-2007, 11:56 AM
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Default RE: Here's a Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! Cool Looking Plane Too...

Here's the link to his build thread with numerous foamie tips/tricks. I kind'a taught him about hot wire cutting tools. We cut out his first wing using the So plane's Clark-Y jig I built for this thread. He has since surpassed me with wings, though. He's got jigs for pretty much any type of airfoil you can think of now. What cracks me up is he'll get creative, combining wing jigs from one airfoil and another to form a new type of wing.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=736291
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Old 11-02-2007, 07:14 PM
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Default RE: Here's a Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! Cool Looking Plane Too...


ORIGINAL: critterhunter

Here's the link to his build thread with numerous foamie tips/tricks. I kind'a taught him about hot wire cutting tools. We cut out his first wing using the So plane's Clark-Y jig I built for this thread. He has since surpassed me with wings, though. He's got jigs for pretty much any type of airfoil you can think of now. What cracks me up is he'll get creative, combining wing jigs from one airfoil and another to form a new type of wing.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=736291
sweet link crit, glad to see ya again, calvino
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Old 11-02-2007, 07:23 PM
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Default RE: Here's a Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! Cool Looking Plane Too...

Hey Critterhunter, things continue to progress forward by leaps and bounds, per what we have been dialogging, I've even managed to squeeze in some build time, stick creation on this round. Progress photo attached, it's a 36" wingspan Guillow's 172 Skyhawk kit I'm e-converting/building, I think I just might buy the full scale version and get my pilot's license soon, I'm digging the style of this one.
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Old 11-02-2007, 09:32 PM
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Default RE: Here's a Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! Cool Looking Plane Too...


ORIGINAL: saucerguy

Hey Critterhunter, things continue to progress forward by leaps and bounds, per what we have been dialogging, I've even managed to squeeze in some build time, stick creation on this round. Progress photo attached, it's a 36" wingspan Guillow's 172 Skyhawk kit I'm e-converting/building, I think I just might buy the full scale version and get my pilot's license soon, I'm digging the style of this one.
if you get the full size, do I get the model
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Old 11-02-2007, 10:54 PM
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Default RE: Here's a Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! Cool Looking Plane Too...

If you want to pay for gas, I'll fly it over to you myself.

Something inspiring happened yesterday, I was at hf getting ready to leave and I looked up into the sky and noticed a cessna flying my way. It was starting to get dark so I couldn't make out what model, the plane had its' lights on, but as you know, they don't illuminate the airframe. When it got close to me, literally flying right over my head, I noticed the tell tale signs of this one, it was the real 172 in all it's glory!!!

I feel if I get a chance to sit in one, and/or fly as a passenger, I'll be so far gone into this tangent, you all will be going, "Brian, come back to reality, it's only a plane!!!", hehe.
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Old 11-03-2007, 12:48 PM
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Default RE: Here's a Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! Cool Looking Plane Too...


ORIGINAL: saucerguy

If you want to pay for gas, I'll fly it over to you myself.
lol, just joking around anyone else make the plane (aka, SO) and fly it, once I get good at flyin, (sims, real...) then I will prob make one
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Old 11-19-2007, 01:34 PM
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Default RE: Here's a Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! Cool Looking Plane Too...

Last night, after a full day of yard and other work around the house, I decided to start cutting out my third attempt at an AP plane. My first attempt was pretty much a disaster (pusher with the motor mounted high on a post, causing major motor thrust issues). Big'N was number two and, while it WILL fly again (minor damage from it's maiden hasn't been fixed yet), it's simply too big to hand launch if I'm alone and have no runway to take off from.

I've currently got three camera setups I plan to use, a 1.2ghz 800mw with CMOS camera, a 2.4 ghz 2000mw CCD camera, and my Aiptek 5100M 5 mega pixel pocket camcorder. I'll be ditching the two AA batteries that the camera uses and powering it off the plane's battery via a 3V regulator to save extra weight. When using either of the two wireless setups they'll be powered by the plane battery as well, but won't require any voltage regulator. Since I've done almost zero AP thus far (a few minutes on a Stryker once), I'm pretty anxious to finally build something air worthy specificly for it.

Although I've got a thing for dual boom pusher designs, I didn't want the dual boom this time to keep the tail as light as possible, allowing me to shorten the nose length. In keeping reduced tail weight in mind, I'll probably only have a skid plate at the tail, but two normal landing wheels at the front.

My general requirements of the design were this...

Engine Setup: Pusher for durability.

Plane Size: Small enough to hand launch on my own if no runway is present, but big enough to see at a good distance for AP. Plane also needs to be able to launch and land in fairly small areas, which means lower wing loading so it doesn't have to come in fast.

Key Design Advantage: The required fuse height to clear the boom with the prop also serves to give me the needed fuse height (and then some) to allow my Aiptek 5100M pocket camcorder to stand up inside the fuse. There will also be plenty enough room for a hxt500 servo to mount on top of the camera to fire the shutter switch if I'm doing still shots. Video won't require the servo since I'll just press record before launching. Camera will sit exactly at the COG point so the plane will fly the same with or without it.

Fuse Width At Camera Area: 4". With the camera sitting for side views it's length from front to back (fuse side to fuse side) is 3". I may reduce this width via ply or balsa as right now with just foam I'll need the extra half inch of foam for strength on the sides of the fuse.

Fuse: Two 2" wide slabs of EPS foam glued side by side. It'll be tapered to a narrow nose roughly as seen by the marker lines on top of the fuse in the pictures. It's length will be cut down as short as possible once COG is determined with all the gear in. Pretty much shooting for the fuse look of the Busy Bee (link below).

Tail Feathers: The ones in the picture were just quickly cut and thrown on for evaluation/pictures. I already know I want a bigger verticle stab and rudder to compensate for the large front fuse surface area. Input on size of that and the horizontal stabilizer needed as well. I know the elevator, hanging off the tail of the fuse and past the rudder, will need to be bigger as well.

Wing: Cut by Alex for another plane (glider) that he gave me. I believe it's close to 9" at the root and 7 or so at the tips. I think he said it's got 2 and 1/2 feet of surface area, and should handle up to about 28 ounces of flying weight while still landing at not too high of a speed. Not sure (?) what airfoil it's using. The wing will be removable via nylon bolts/basswood, so if I need a larger or different style wing it'll be easy enough to hot wire out a new one.

A few more stats:

Fuse Length: 36"
Controls: Rudder/Elevator for simplicity and smooth flat turns for AP.
Motor: Probably a 2409-18 swinging a 10x5 APC E. Might go to a 9x6 or so to reduce the total fuse height from it's whopping 6 & 1/2" to 5 & 1/2" or even less.
Battery: 2200ma 20C lipo 3 cell, or may use 2000ma 10C 3 cells
Speed Control: 30 amp Tower Pro
Servos: HXT900s, or maybe HS81s

I always liked the look of the Busy Bee and, without even realizing it, I've pretty much copied the design. It gives me some comfort that something as tall and fat as the Busy Bee can fly. Anybody know the fuse height and width of it? I'd like to know those and other general fuse dimensions of it for comparison purposes. They only list the fuse length. Here's a link...

http://www.hobby-lobby.com/busybee.htm

I threw it all together with some toothpicks just to take a gander at the concept. Very rough, unsanded, tail feathers aren't to size or shape I want yet, fuse size/shape will change and be tappered, etc...But it gives you a general idea of what I'm shooting for...
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Old 11-19-2007, 01:39 PM
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Default RE: Here's a Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! Cool Looking Plane Too...

Don't know if I posted this, but check out this AP dual boomer. Pretty cool...

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_4652856/tm.htm
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Old 11-19-2007, 01:45 PM
  #1518  
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Default RE: Here's a Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! Cool Looking Plane Too...

Here's a repost of a message on my AP build, along with the initial concept drawing/notation...

Alex recently dropped me off a copy of a fuse and wing for a glider he built. I was intending to use it for some AP work as well but figured I'd better design something specificly for that, leaving the nice glider to do what it does best.

The first AP build attempt I ever did was a pusher with the motor mounted up on a post which had major motor thrust issues. My second attempt was Big'N , which did show promise while *I* was flying it (handed the controls over to Alex halfway through it's maiden) The damage to it can be fixed within an hour (which I haven't done yet) and, while I haven't given up on it, I do need something smaller that I can manage to get into the air on my own. Lacking a proper runway for take off, Big'N requires a second person to throw it into the air with a running start. This build won't. It'll be small enough to throw on my own should I not have a runway.

So, having two wireless setups (1.2ghz 800mw CMOS, and a 2000mw 2.4ghz CCD camera setup) along with a very light pocket camcorder, all of which really haven't been used yet, I figured attempt number three was in order.

Since I've always liked pusher prop setups for their durability, but I didn't want the added tail weight of a dual boomer (requiring extra nose length), I thought I'd try a somewhat "different" design.

The added plus (and key to this setup) is that the height of the fuse to allow the prop to clear will also give me the needed height (and then some) for the pocket camcorder to stand up inside a fuse chamber for side view video and still shots. In fact, the extra fuse height needed by the prop length will also allow me to mount a servo on top of the shutter button for doing the stills.

Being a "unique" design, I'd prefer a little input on this bugger before I build it. Criticism welcome. It aint to scale, either...

PS- Alex, Planning on maybe using the glider wing you gave me for it, setup as removable with nylon bolts/basswood.
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Old 11-19-2007, 03:56 PM
  #1519  
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Default RE: Here's a Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! Cool Looking Plane Too...

^^ lookin good, for a while there I didn't konw what happened to you[], I guess the thread is about to turn 1 year old, hope the Big'n flies again, looked SO COOL, maybe sometimes, bigger is not allways better
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Old 11-20-2007, 11:30 AM
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Default RE: Here's a Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! Cool Looking Plane Too...

A little update from another website on this build...

Quote:
Originally Posted by skymind
I don't think it is, I think the nose is too long. If the tail goes longer, and I think that's unnecessary, you'll only have to keep more weight on the other side of the wing.

The tail seems adequate to for the elevator to work. The rudder size and arm may have a challenge keeping that big schnoz under control. The rudder does seem a little short and blocked by the boxy fuselage. Reduce the nose and the rudder should be ok and help keep it lighter.

END:

Agreed. Longer tail means longer nose. Actually, the tail boom is longer than it looks in the pictures, and when I use bigger tail feathers (with the elevator hanging off the tip of the tail boom) the tail will get a bit longer. The ones thrown on for the photo were just hacked out, and not meant as permanent or to desired size. I plan to oversize the tail feathers to keep the frontal surface area from giving me any problems. A quick question: When the tail moment gets shorter, will larger tail feathers help stability?

As said in the post, the nose is too long on purpose for right now. It's going to be slimmed/rounded/trimmed/tucked/whatever. The entire fuse is only a rough cut out for now, with more foam than needed so I can slim it down as I go. In fact, I'm thinking of adding ply/bass/or balsa to the sides of the fuse where the camera sits inside it. That'll eliminate the need for foam there so I can reduce the 4" thick fuse down to about 3 and 1/4". This will be the thickest point of the fuse (big enough to house the camera sitting sideways). The rest of the fuse will still be foam, and the front and back of the body will contour down from the camera chamber.

Fuse height right now is a whopping 6 & 1/2". 5 & 1/2" to clear the prop over the boom, plus another inch for the boom it's self. The best prop for max thrust on the 2409-18 is a APC 10x5E. However, I may opt for a different motor and/or a smaller prop in the 8 to 9" range. This will allow me to lower the height of the fuse another inch or so. Got to run those numbers on the Busy Bee to see just how high and thick it's fuse is as a general guideline. My camera height, even with a shutter servo on top of it, is still much shorter than the current fuse height anyway.

I was thinking of using a carbon tube to strengthen the tail boom foam but probably have decided on thin balsa to cover the foam. A friend does this and I'm amazed at how strong it gets with just a thin sheet of balsa spray glued to both sides.

Thanks for all the input and keep it coming.
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Old 11-20-2007, 05:00 PM
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Default RE: Here's a Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! Cool Looking Plane Too...

Some more repost material:

The current dihedral wing I'm sure work fine. What I'm trying to get at is what wing style is going to work best in windy conditions without ailerons. That's where the current wing leaves a big question mark, though it may perform decently even in stronger winds. Fly and see, I guess.

I'm also wondering about the airfoil? Since this plane isn't going to be fast, I'd rather have an airfoil on it that is designed to play to very low speed strengths, to the point of almost stalling the plane. That should give me the ability to slow it to a crawl and linger over desired AP shots.

As long as we are talking about wings and things, I'd say despite whatever options are available, I'd rather hold off on any new wing construction until I get the plane built and see what it's AUW is. That way I can figure out the needed wing length (max of about 9 or 10" wide at the root) to keep the wing loading low enough for slow speed landings. I'm betting the current wing is going to be plenty big enough to keep it low, but might as well build the plane and run the numbers first.

Looks like I'm not the only one to think this design style lends it's self perfectly to AP work. Look at the EyeSpy....Free plans but you can also by some of the hardware pre-made...

http://www.windandwavemodels.com/Eyespy.html

Again, another Busy Bee look alike. By the way, this guy is using a carbon golf club shaft for the tail boom. Good idea to prevent twist when trying a carbon only tail boom. I've never had the issue of twist before with EPP/carbon booms, but then again those were a bit thicker foam than what I'm shooting for on this build. What I'm looking at now is sheeting the foam tail with thin balsa to stiffen/prevent twist. Camera area sides of the fuse will be either balsa/ply/bass to keep it as thin as possible there. Rest of fuse is going to be just the foam because it'll be too hard to shape the balsa over the curves, and don't need the strength there. Might use Tyvek paper or tape over the rest of it if I don't want bare foam.

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Old 11-20-2007, 11:50 PM
  #1522  
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Default RE: Here's a Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! Cool Looking Plane Too...

Critterhunter
You should check out the 60" KF wing Blue Baby for an AP. With or without ailerons lots of dihedral . Built from Fan Fold Foam. $33+change for a buldle enough for 15 to 20 planes.
I'm headed to Lowes soon to get a bundle as mine is in Tenn. and I got to build. Bought some Depron but to much $ for mass production. I cut it with a fabric cutter (roller) on the mat that is used with them. Walmart has them. I don't get on much as sisters computer is dialup (slow)

Ken In the sticks of upstate N.Y.
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Old 11-21-2007, 01:02 AM
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Default RE: Here's a Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! Cool Looking Plane Too...


ORIGINAL: ken 68

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You should check out the 60" KF wing Blue Baby for an AP. With or without ailerons lots of dihedral . Built from Fan Fold Foam. $33+change for a buldle enough for 15 to 20 planes.
I'm headed to Lowes soon to get a bundle as mine is in Tenn. and I got to build. Bought some Depron but to much $ for mass production. I cut it with a fabric cutter (roller) on the mat that is used with them. Walmart has them. I don't get on much as sisters computer is dialup (slow)

Ken In the sticks of upstate N.Y.
what about a hotwire tool, those work AWESOME, clean cuts... ok, stupid question, do most hardware stores carry like Fan fold foam??? just currious, thanks
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Old 11-21-2007, 01:33 AM
  #1524  
ken 68
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Default RE: Here's a Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! Cool Looking Plane Too...

The cutter I use to cut FFF and Depron sheet has a 2 1/2 wheel (razor sharp) . FFF can be found at Lowes or HomeDepot or most any building supply stores. The best is Dow but the others can be used. Plastic film on one side must be removed or put where glue don't go. (OUTSIDE) . Go to www.rcgroups.com and check out the scratch built foamies. Theres many to choose from and easy to build. Theres a Piper Pawnee agg. plane that is on my must build list. 48" KF wing with much dihedral that the guys that have built sal they fly great. KF wing is simple to make and flies like a Clark-Y. Check them out.

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Old 11-21-2007, 01:35 PM
  #1525  
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Default RE: Here's a Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! Cool Looking Plane Too...

Here's the latest photos of the AP ship. Sanded the fuse down a good bit. The nose will be lopped off more once I know where the battery has to sit for COG. Total fuse height now is 6".

I may raise the motor a half inch to an inch above the fuse so I can swing a 10x5 APC E prop should I decide to go with the 2409-18 motor. I'm probably going to go with a motor a friend has sitting around that he says will swing up to an 8 or 9" prop, getting rid of the need to raise the motor anyway, or use a 8 or 9" prop on the 2409-18.

Fuse width at it's widest point where the camera sits is about 3 and 1/8". The foam on the sides of the fuse in that area will be removed and some kind of wood will be used to provide the sides there, keeping the body as slim as possible.

All the side foam where the camera sits won't be gone. The camera will be inserted into the plane from a hole in the belley, so there will still be a good bit of foam (2 to 3") above the camera chamber under the wing, keeping the body foam well connected from front to back of the fuse.

Reason for belly insertion is this will also double to provide an access view for down video shots. Other reason is if I made the wood on the side some kind of door I think it'll weaken the side of the fuse too much not being glued to the foam?

The body is regular EPS foam from Home Depot, but the boom is the denser EPS a friend gave me. It's a stronger foam. The length you see will change, probably being shorter.

My current thinking is to sheet the boom (top, bottom, and sides) with thin balsa. I'm hoping this will be enough to make it real stiff and prevent flex. I've seen a friend sheet foam this way and the strength is pretty incredible. Eliminates the need for carbon or other strength mods. The boom, balsa and all, will be glued into the fuse several inches to provide a good joining.

I thought about using a carbon golf club shaft or even a thick dowl rod for the tail boom, but hitching the tail feathers up to a smaller surface area like that can be a pain to keep from flexing. I've heard people have good results with Goop to glue them on. Still, routing control rods down a shaft like that isn't easy either, so I think the foam/balsa is probably the best way to go. If anybody has any other suggestions to make a strong tail boom I'm open to it.

Not sure if I'm keeping the foam you see behind the wing where the motor mounts. I may lop that off because the motor can sit under the wing, or through a notch in the wing if it's going to be raised somewhat above it. The whole plane is still in it's rough design stages, obviously.

Tail feathers are still just hacked mockups. I'm planning on increasing the final size of them and using Cell Foam 88, which is stronger than blue foam.

More input welcome...

By the way...I tried 3M spray gluing the two fuse halfs together and it worked fine. I put 3 or 4 coats on them, letting it dry between them, and then one final coat and stuck them together right after spraying that one on. I normaly use Gorilla glue to join two fuse halfs for a thicker fuse. That works great, but when doing drastic sanding on the fuse afterwards the Gorilla glue can get in your way and make it hard to sand things down. I'd still opt for the Gorilla glue to join the two halves if there wasn't going to be much sanding involved. When I do that I just keep the gorilla glue away from the edges so I don't run into it while sanding.
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