Ash Cloud - Full Scale A/C Damage
05-22-2010, 11:13 AM
#1
Ash Cloud - Full Scale A/C Damage
These pics are reported to be of an aircraft/engine that got a bit too close to the North Atlantic ash cloud from the recent volcanic eruption in Iceland. The damage is pretty extensive as you can see. It seems there was good justification to keep planes grounded.
Nick, glad this wasn't your bird even though you were stuck in Europe for days and just wanted to get home.
Regards,
Jim
Nick, glad this wasn't your bird even though you were stuck in Europe for days and just wanted to get home.
Regards,
Jim
05-22-2010, 11:39 AM
#2
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RE: Ash Cloud - Full Scale A/C Damage
Wow Jim, Interesting. I didnt realise that ash could cause the kind that kind of destruction. I aasume the other engine suffered the same fate. Since that engine was originally designed for a cruise missle i guess it wouldnt be a good idea for a strike during a volcanic eruption. 
Cody
Cody
05-22-2010, 11:57 AM
#3
RE: Ash Cloud - Full Scale A/C Damage
Back a few years ago a 747-400 flew through the ash cloud and lost all four engines (there was more than one instance of this). They did manage to get a couple restarted so ultimately they made it safe back on the ground. The subsequent damage to the entire jet (avionics, windshields, pressurization system, engines, wings ETC was so severe that the jet was totaled and scraped.
Volcanic ash is deadly to aircraft and should not be toyed with.
Beave
Volcanic ash is deadly to aircraft and should not be toyed with.
Beave
05-22-2010, 12:03 PM
#4
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RE: Ash Cloud - Full Scale A/C Damage
From Aviation International News:
Engine Damage Not Caused by Volcanic Ash
Dramatic photos circulating on the Internet purporting to show a Williams International FJ44-3A-24 installed on a Cessna Citation CJ2+ destroyed by exposure to volcanic ash from the recent eruption in Iceland are “complete fiction,” according to Brad Thress, Cessna vice president of product support. The incident occurred about a month before the April eruption, he said. “It’s viral,” Thress said. “We get hundreds of e-mails here…It’s interesting how things can take off on the Internet.” What caused the damage is a known issue with the engine’s diffuser, he said. Williams has already sent a letter to operators warning about the potential for the diffuser to fail. The failure mode is caused by a harmonic vibration that cracks the fuel manifold, and the engine company notified operators that signs of shifting or cracking of the diffuser include a shift in ITT, fuel odor in the cabin or difficulty removing the diffuser or start nozzle, according to Thress. Cessna is planning to release an alert service letter on this issue, and diffusers are being replaced during the next scheduled maintenance event. “It is a fleet issue,” he said, “not related to volcano activity.”
Engine Damage Not Caused by Volcanic Ash
Dramatic photos circulating on the Internet purporting to show a Williams International FJ44-3A-24 installed on a Cessna Citation CJ2+ destroyed by exposure to volcanic ash from the recent eruption in Iceland are “complete fiction,” according to Brad Thress, Cessna vice president of product support. The incident occurred about a month before the April eruption, he said. “It’s viral,” Thress said. “We get hundreds of e-mails here…It’s interesting how things can take off on the Internet.” What caused the damage is a known issue with the engine’s diffuser, he said. Williams has already sent a letter to operators warning about the potential for the diffuser to fail. The failure mode is caused by a harmonic vibration that cracks the fuel manifold, and the engine company notified operators that signs of shifting or cracking of the diffuser include a shift in ITT, fuel odor in the cabin or difficulty removing the diffuser or start nozzle, according to Thress. Cessna is planning to release an alert service letter on this issue, and diffusers are being replaced during the next scheduled maintenance event. “It is a fleet issue,” he said, “not related to volcano activity.”
05-22-2010, 12:09 PM
#7
RE: Ash Cloud - Full Scale A/C Damage
I would like to see the engine on the other side. If the ash did that to one engine, wouldn't it do the same thing to the other? Just my .02 cents.
Roy
Roy
05-22-2010, 12:20 PM
#9
RE: Ash Cloud - Full Scale A/C Damage
Yeah Jim, i am glad we got stuck in Spain for 7 days too!! It (the cloud) made its way all the way to Rota, Spain where we were and it was SFC- 20,000 in that area, so we could even take off!! 
Lots of Bar-b-quing and hanging out in Spain!!
Lots of Bar-b-quing and hanging out in Spain!!
05-22-2010, 12:37 PM
#10
RE: Ash Cloud - Full Scale A/C Damage
Yes the aircraft was a 747-400 series (G-BDXH) it was 4 months old at the time.
They had to change all four engines, the environmental control system, all the cockpit glazeings and light covers.
Did return to service though.
All four engines were replaced and many airplane systems also had to be repaired or replaced. For example, the airplane environmental control system was replaced, the fuel tanks were cleaned, and the hydraulic systems were repaired.
There should be a link with pictures here, It does not appear to work.
They had to change all four engines, the environmental control system, all the cockpit glazeings and light covers.
Did return to service though.
All four engines were replaced and many airplane systems also had to be repaired or replaced. For example, the airplane environmental control system was replaced, the fuel tanks were cleaned, and the hydraulic systems were repaired.
There should be a link with pictures here, It does not appear to work.
05-22-2010, 01:16 PM
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RE: Ash Cloud - Full Scale A/C Damage
LOOKS MORE LIKE BLADE FAILURE TO ME.BACK IN THE DAY WHEN ST HELENS BLEW SOME PHANTOMS FLEW AROUND THE ASH CLOUD AND GOT THE PAINT AND NEOPRENE STRIPPED OFF,THE ASH IS ABRASIVE LIKE SAND BLAST MEDIA.IF ANYTHING THE LEADING SDGES OF THE BLAES SHOULD BE WORN AND BARE METAL EXPOSED ON THE AIRFRAME.WINDSCREEN GLASS HAZED AND PITTED.THOSE TYPE OF ISSUES.NOTES FROM FORMER F4D/E,A10,T38,F16 CREW CHIEF.
05-22-2010, 01:24 PM
#13
RE: Ash Cloud - Full Scale A/C Damage
I like this post from one of the pilots on the PPRuNe forum LOL.
90% chance that anything you get in a chain email is false...
"arh yes definetly Ash damage, probably caused by some sort of cannabis infusion with grey matter, best to inhale this sort of ash/debris rather than waste it on an engine."
90% chance that anything you get in a chain email is false...
"arh yes definetly Ash damage, probably caused by some sort of cannabis infusion with grey matter, best to inhale this sort of ash/debris rather than waste it on an engine."
05-22-2010, 01:27 PM
#14
RE: Ash Cloud - Full Scale A/C Damage
JP,
I'm not talking about the BA jet, but KLM 867. Some reports say it was scrapped and other reports say it was repaired. None the less, it's bad news to fly through ash clouds.
Beave
I'm not talking about the BA jet, but KLM 867. Some reports say it was scrapped and other reports say it was repaired. None the less, it's bad news to fly through ash clouds.
Beave
ORIGINAL: JP-1
Yes the aircraft was a 747-400 series (G-BDXH) it was 4 months old at the time.
They had to change all four engines, the environmental control system, all the cockpit glazeings and light covers.
Did return to service though.
All four engines were replaced and many airplane systems also had to be repaired or replaced. For example, http://the airplane environmental co... were repaired.
There should be a link with pictures here, It does not appear to work.
Yes the aircraft was a 747-400 series (G-BDXH) it was 4 months old at the time.
They had to change all four engines, the environmental control system, all the cockpit glazeings and light covers.
Did return to service though.
All four engines were replaced and many airplane systems also had to be repaired or replaced. For example, http://the airplane environmental co... were repaired.
There should be a link with pictures here, It does not appear to work.
05-22-2010, 02:12 PM
#15
RE: Ash Cloud - Full Scale A/C Damage
Todds Models & Marcus109,
Thanks for posting the info about these photos not being from damage caused by the ash cloud. The damage seemed a bit extreme/localized for ash to be the cause. A diffuser failure seems much more consistant with the damage. As I said in my first post, "pics are reported to be"...
Boli & JP, thanks for the info on the 747 incident. All I can say is that I'd rather not be in a 4 engine plane when none of the engines are working. Staying away from ash clouds seems like a good idea.
Nick, Spain isn't exactly the worse place in the world to be grounded, is it? I seem to recall something about Spain per diems
Tom, that's a classic.
Regards,
Jim
Thanks for posting the info about these photos not being from damage caused by the ash cloud. The damage seemed a bit extreme/localized for ash to be the cause. A diffuser failure seems much more consistant with the damage. As I said in my first post, "pics are reported to be"...
Boli & JP, thanks for the info on the 747 incident. All I can say is that I'd rather not be in a 4 engine plane when none of the engines are working. Staying away from ash clouds seems like a good idea.
Nick, Spain isn't exactly the worse place in the world to be grounded, is it? I seem to recall something about Spain per diems
Tom, that's a classic.
Regards,
Jim
05-22-2010, 02:17 PM
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RE: Ash Cloud - Full Scale A/C Damage
Living relatively close to the ash cloud we experience flight cancellations and delays every week, and still
there are more than a few sceptical full size pilots and mechanics who think that the entire panic is just that -
panic. There have been a few airliners that have flown along the edge of the cloud, and 2 Finnish F-18's that
flew inside it, and although they could spot little ash particles inside the turbines, there was (OF COURSE!) no
damage like the ones in the pictures! The 747's that had the engine problems flew almost straight through
the main plume from ash volcanoes, that can not be compared to the diluted ash that we see over most of
Europe. There are already new rules coming online regarding the permit to fly. There have been ash clouds
in many places all over the world before, and there has never been a reaction like this...
Tor
there are more than a few sceptical full size pilots and mechanics who think that the entire panic is just that -
panic. There have been a few airliners that have flown along the edge of the cloud, and 2 Finnish F-18's that
flew inside it, and although they could spot little ash particles inside the turbines, there was (OF COURSE!) no
damage like the ones in the pictures! The 747's that had the engine problems flew almost straight through
the main plume from ash volcanoes, that can not be compared to the diluted ash that we see over most of
Europe. There are already new rules coming online regarding the permit to fly. There have been ash clouds
in many places all over the world before, and there has never been a reaction like this...
Tor
05-22-2010, 02:32 PM
#17
RE: Ash Cloud - Full Scale A/C Damage
This is what really is interesting. See who is saying what about flying through. Company owners and management personnel all say it is safe to fly through the ash clouds, but the pilots that have to fly through pretty much say it is dangerous and don't want too.
Beave
Beave
05-22-2010, 03:14 PM
#18
RE: Ash Cloud - Full Scale A/C Damage
ORIGINAL: bevar
This is what really is interesting. See who is saying what about flying through. Company owners and management personnel all say it is safe to fly through the ash clouds, but the pilots that have to fly through pretty much say it is dangerous and don't want too.
Beave
This is what really is interesting. See who is saying what about flying through. Company owners and management personnel all say it is safe to fly through the ash clouds, but the pilots that have to fly through pretty much say it is dangerous and don't want too.
Beave
I Wouldn't want too.. lucky we dont have any Trans-atlantic flights in the King air scheduled anytime soon
05-22-2010, 04:09 PM
#19
RE: Ash Cloud - Full Scale A/C Damage
ORIGINAL: bevar
JP,
I'm not talking about the BA jet, but KLM 867. Some reports say it was scrapped and other reports say it was repaired. None the less, it's bad news to fly through ash clouds.
Beave
JP,
I'm not talking about the BA jet, but KLM 867. Some reports say it was scrapped and other reports say it was repaired. None the less, it's bad news to fly through ash clouds.
Beave
ORIGINAL: JP-1
Yes the aircraft was a 747-400 series (G-BDXH) it was 4 months old at the time.
They had to change all four engines, the environmental control system, all the cockpit glazeings and light covers.
Did return to service though.
All four engines were replaced and many airplane systems also had to be repaired or replaced. For example, http://the airplane environmental co... were repaired.
There should be a link with pictures here, It does not appear to work.
Yes the aircraft was a 747-400 series (G-BDXH) it was 4 months old at the time.
They had to change all four engines, the environmental control system, all the cockpit glazeings and light covers.
Did return to service though.
All four engines were replaced and many airplane systems also had to be repaired or replaced. For example, http://the airplane environmental co... were repaired.
There should be a link with pictures here, It does not appear to work.
The BA jet was flying until last year (Rolls Royce power) the KLM jet, (GE power, I believe) is still flying.
Regards, DG
05-22-2010, 04:34 PM
#20
RE: Ash Cloud - Full Scale A/C Damage
The big thing with ash is the flameout that will most likely happen shortly there after.........This is the main reason we have a 4 engine flameout checklist in our flight manuals.....
Not only that, when ash is super heated it turns to a glassy substance whih is really bad for the turbines inside the engine..
The story i was told about the 747 that was flying around an Alaskan volcano eruption was that they inadvertantly flew into the cloud, lost all 4 engines, had to drift down and when they drifted down they were able to restart the engines. They then proceeded to climb back up to "said" flightlevel when they lost the engines again....they didnt realize what was happening and subsequently had to divert for fuel (or lack of) to final destination........$.02
Not only that, when ash is super heated it turns to a glassy substance whih is really bad for the turbines inside the engine..
The story i was told about the 747 that was flying around an Alaskan volcano eruption was that they inadvertantly flew into the cloud, lost all 4 engines, had to drift down and when they drifted down they were able to restart the engines. They then proceeded to climb back up to "said" flightlevel when they lost the engines again....they didnt realize what was happening and subsequently had to divert for fuel (or lack of) to final destination........$.02
05-22-2010, 05:00 PM
#21
RE: Ash Cloud - Full Scale A/C Damage
ORIGINAL: rcjets_63
These pics are reported to be of an aircraft/engine that got a bit too close to the North Atlantic ash cloud from the recent volcanic eruption in Iceland. The damage is pretty extensive as you can see. It seems there was good justification to keep planes grounded.
Nick, glad this wasn't your bird even though you were stuck in Europe for days and just wanted to get home.
Regards,
Jim
These pics are reported to be of an aircraft/engine that got a bit too close to the North Atlantic ash cloud from the recent volcanic eruption in Iceland. The damage is pretty extensive as you can see. It seems there was good justification to keep planes grounded.
Nick, glad this wasn't your bird even though you were stuck in Europe for days and just wanted to get home.
Regards,
Jim
05-22-2010, 05:46 PM
#22
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RE: Ash Cloud - Full Scale A/C Damage
OMG![X(]
Does no-one read any other posts before posting something themselves????
This was not Ash damage - It was a known engine problem (a shifting diffuser) In fact I just read the preliminary report that the aircraft was being flown to Bremen for maintenance and the engine failed just after takeoff.
Does no-one read any other posts before posting something themselves????
This was not Ash damage - It was a known engine problem (a shifting diffuser) In fact I just read the preliminary report that the aircraft was being flown to Bremen for maintenance and the engine failed just after takeoff.
05-22-2010, 09:30 PM
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RE: Ash Cloud - Full Scale A/C Damage
ORIGINAL: bevar
So...any one in the market for a slightly used MD-80 engine?
So...any one in the market for a slightly used MD-80 engine?
That looks like a jackpot payoff!!!
I had a PT6-42 on a Kingair do a similar trick.
05-22-2010, 10:50 PM
#25
RE: Ash Cloud - Full Scale A/C Damage
ORIGINAL: skyhawknut
OMG![X(]
Does no-one read any other posts before posting something themselves????
This was not Ash damage - It was a known engine problem (a shifting diffuser) In fact I just read the preliminary report that the aircraft was being flown to Bremen for maintenance and the engine failed just after takeoff.
OMG![X(]
Does no-one read any other posts before posting something themselves????
This was not Ash damage - It was a known engine problem (a shifting diffuser) In fact I just read the preliminary report that the aircraft was being flown to Bremen for maintenance and the engine failed just after takeoff.
lol not always