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Futaba 14SG conditions delay issue.

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Old 02-08-2018, 05:17 AM
  #1
bladeskiller
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Default Futaba 14SG conditions delay issue.

Last week i purchased a new futaba 14sg to replace my 10CG. The problem arised during setting up my boomerang sprint, to fly it using my new transmitter (previously i used to fly it with the 10CG). I have set it as a 2A+1F glider and I use the same switch for flaps control and conditions, to set the proper elevator trim for middle and full flaps during the flight and used the delay option to avoid abrupt reactions of the plane as trim changes from one condition/flap setting to another. The same i had done with my 10CG. BUT what i noticed is that, when changing conditions, time delay option affects not only the trim offset of a channel (i.e. elevator) but also slows down the stick commands!!! It's easy to understand the disastrous results that may be caused by this "characteristic" (call it software bug) because of limited control during transition from one condition to another.
There are two solutions for that problem. First is not to use delay option. Of course it can't be considered as a real solution ,so let's get to the next solution that i found it to work for me. Suppose we need elevator compensation for flaps ballooning with trim delay ,using conditions. Here is what is need to be done.

1. STEP. Go to "function" menu and remove the trim T2 from elevator channel.
2.STEP. In the same menu, choose an unused channel, set as control nothing and T2 as trim.
3.STEP. Go to the programming mix menu, select one of them and get into it's submenu.
4.STEP. Set the channel that has been selected in step 2 as master and the elevator channel as slave.
5.STEP. Set the trim option active and, if two elevator channels are used (ailvator), set slave link active.
6.STEP. Set the mix ACT without a switch (always active).
7.STEP. Set the mixing rate +100% in both directions.
8.STEP. Go to conditions menu, set elevator delay to zero and set the required delay to the master channel (selected in step 2).

That's all. Now delay does not affect elevator channel stick commands but slows down the master channel and it's trim that is linked to the elevator channel. And because there is no control linked to the step 2 channel (say dummy channel), it remains centered and does not affect the elevator channel except by changing it's trim. The result is that what i need. To slow down the trim changes during transition from one condition to another but NOT the stick commands.
BUT, I wonder why did Futaba softwaremen make all the above procedure necessary (and sacrifice one channel for every stick controlled surface that needs conditioned trim with delay) for everyone that needs to use the delay option in conditions.
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Old 02-08-2018, 03:45 PM
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I am not sure I follow you you. If you are using a Glider model type you can use conditions to do what you want to do.

The delay you set for a given function in the Condition menu will not affect the speed of the control movements (sticks) it only affects how fast changes happen when you go into and out of, a condition.

You need to go into the Trim Menu (T1-T4 Set) in the linkage menu and select elevator trim as SEP. This allows a unique trim in each condition.

Does that make sense?
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Old 02-09-2018, 12:43 AM
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I have already set the trim tabs as SEP. And the delay DOES affect the response time to the sticks during transition. Try it!! Set a switch for conditions, set a delay of, let's say, 22 to the elevator or any other control surface that is controlled by a stick, then go to the SERVO screen. Now, try to move the stick at the same time you flip the condition switch and look at the servo response on the screen. Or connect a servo to the corresponding output of a receiver and look at the servo response to the stick commands during transition. And its the same thing no matter how the trims are set (SEP or COMB).
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Old 02-09-2018, 07:22 AM
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Yes, the motion is slowed DURING the delay time, and 22 is very large delay. Once the delay time is over you have full, normal speed on the control stick. I thought you were saying it was a permanent slowing, it is not.

On my gliders, which is mostly what I fly, I have delays on elevator of around 5 to 8 between different conditions. This is enough to smooth out any rapid trim changes without negatively affecting the flight control.
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Old 02-09-2018, 07:48 AM
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I am going to use this transmitter for big warbirds and a boomerang sprint turbine jet. So, even the slightest loss of stick control during transition between conditions, may be disastrous. And time delay of 22 is not too much. Its about 2-2.5 seconds and its the delay I had set for my planes in my previous transmitter (10CG) without any problem because there was no kind of stick delay. Its the first time I notice something like this. Its DEFINITELY a software problem that has to be fixed. What is really unaccepted is that the manual says NOTHING about this feature.
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Old 02-09-2018, 08:54 AM
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I also fly warbirds and other large flapped airplanes. I can tell you that a delay of 22 on the elevator to account for changes in trim during flap deployment is very large and I have never needed to go that large. Aside from that, there are no conditions available in the aerobatic mode, only glider and heli so if you are flying using those menus then conditions will not be available to you.

For airplanes you can use the camber menu to control flaps.
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Old 02-09-2018, 09:12 AM
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That's why I use to set this kind of planes in glider mode. Because I need the conditions to trim my planes properly during the first flight and not having to guess the required amount of mixing by trial and error. One more time, 2 seconds for flaps deployment (and the condition trim change by the same time) is not too much. Masking the problem by almost eliminating the time delay dosen't meen that the software problem does not exist.
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Old 02-09-2018, 10:08 AM
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OK, good enough. There are other ways to do this.

Have tried using the CAMBER FLAP -> ELEVATOR mixing menu. See page 130:
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Name:	14sg-manual.pdf
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Or simply using a flap to elevator mix in the program mix. I use this on my planes.

ANd yet another way is using the TRIM MIX menu. THis is how I set my trailing edge on gliders and I've used it on flapped plane.

There are a number of less complicated ways to achieve your goal.
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Old 02-09-2018, 11:48 PM
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Neither of the ways you mentioned can help to achieve my goal because neither of them allow to trim my plane DURING FLIGHT for different flaps positions and memorizing trim DURING FLIGHT AND NOT ON THE GROUND. Only conditions trim can make it. As about "trim mix" function, the big difference between my older 10cg and 14sg, is that in my 10CG there was a function called "trim offset" , similar to "trim mix", that trim tabs could be used to offset and memorize the basic trim for different conditions during flight. In 14sg trim tabs can NOT be used. Any way ,the basic problem in this transmitter is not about condition trim. Conditions trim works. The problem is about delay function that affects the stick commands. I am sure the same is if I use delay in any other function like camber mix trim mix etc. But one way or an other all these functions do not make what I need so they are out of interest. So the problem remains and I can't find a less complicated setup to overcome it ,if I am going to make the conditions delay to work like they are supposed. There is a fundamental software problem here so, please, stop trying to push the rubbish under the carpet.
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Old 02-10-2018, 09:13 PM
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The "Trim Mix" has nothing to do with trims. It is a means to offset the trailing edge (ailerons and flaps, or flaps alone) a given amount at the flip of a switch. Having said htat, if you have found a way to get the radio to do what you want it to in a way your want it done, then you have achieved your goals.

I use the methods I outlined to get my gliders and power planes (warbirds and scale planes) with flaps to do what I want them to do. This is the real power of these radios. There are many ways to achieve your desired outcome.
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Old 02-10-2018, 11:53 PM
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Of course there are many ways for the desired goals to be achieved ,in most cases . However, the point is to not make things more complicated than they really are because of a software feature. If the condition delay did not affect the stick response, everything would be much simpler. And ,one more time, there is no highlight about this feature in the manual although it's something very important. The only thing I found about it in the internet, is a pdf with some additional directions of futaba about 8fg where this feature is reported but nothing about 14sg.
Now about trim mix. Last night I tried something in an unused model memory. In the function menu ,I set ch6 (what I usually set for flaps) named BATERFLY instead of FLAPS controlled by a three positions switch (that's how I usually control flaps) . Then, in BUTTERFLY menu, I set T2 SEPARATE as a control of elevator fine tuning option. Also I set no delay for elevator in the conditions menu and set the desired delay in BUTTERFLY menu. I noticed that, in this way my goal could be achieved for elevator axis , without the elevator delay setting in BUTTERFLY menu affecting stick response. And that without sacrificing one channel and one programmable mix.
Unfortunately, there is no such an option in trim mix menu and yes, trim mix has nothing to do with trim tabs in this transmitter. But 16sz includes this option in trim mix menu. I wonder if trim mix fine tuning works like in BUTTERFLY menu in 14sg. A friend of mine has the 16sz so I am going to ask him to make a test for me.
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Old 02-12-2018, 12:46 AM
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PM sent.
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