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12Z mixing for flying wings ??

Old 11-19-2007, 09:43 PM
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multiflyer
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Default 12Z mixing for flying wings ??

Help?

I tested my new 12Z in a powered flying wing model, and various mixing features did not behave as expected. What is the problem? I am using "Elevon" action fo rpitch and roll control. When I try to mix to elevator and aileron portions of this combined control movement, it doesn't work normally? I assume, since there is no separate “elevon” mixing feature, that all the “flying wing” wing types are intended to perform the elevon mixing function – is that correct?

For traditional model/wing/tail type = Airplane, 1 Aileron, Normal tail, the following mixes worked normally when I enabled each:
RUD-->AIL,
RUD-->ELE,
PROG.MIX Throttle-->Aileron
PROG.MIX Throttle-->Elevator
I activated each mix. I entered a % for rate A and B. And each mix drove the slave as expected.

For “Airplane” model type, with any of the “Flying-Wing” wing types, and “Normal” rudder type, these same mixing features did work as expected? I activated each mix exactly the same as I did above (activate the mix feature and enter a % for rates A and B) and got strange results. Why?

RUD-->AIL mix
Worked as expected. Rudder input drove all aileron channels as slaves in their proper combined aileron motion.

RUD-->ELE mix
Did not work at all. Rudder input did not drive any of the elevon channels to move at all.

PROG.MIX Throttle-->Aileron
Did not work as expected. Throttle input moved only the first aileron (channel 4). The p.mix did not move all ailerons together as ailerons??

PROG.MIX Throttle-->Elevator
Did not work at all. Throttle input did not drive any of the aileron or flap channels at all.

PROG.MIX Throttle-->Camber
Did not work at all either. Throttle input did not drive any of the aileron or flap channels at all.

Why don’t these mixes work as expected with for the flying-wing wing types?

Bryan
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Old 11-20-2007, 11:06 AM
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Krysta
 
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Default RE: 12Z mixing for flying wings ??

HI mutliflyer,

One reason that this mix did not work is that it is Rudder to Elevator (not Elevon) mix. And as you had the previous mix active, Rubber to Aileron, this previous mix is overriding the second. When you are using the model type that you are, Ailerons essentially become one with Elevators. So by activating both these mixes, you are simply duplicating them.


"For “Airplane” model type, with any of the “Flying-Wing” wing types, and “Normal” rudder type,
RUD-->ELE mix
Did not work at all. Rudder input did not drive any of the elevon channels to move at all. "

For the mix below, to activate movement on the second Aileron servo in this Mix, you need to activate LINK. Lok at the box to the immediate right of the slave channel, if you change this to a + sign, it will make this mix work with any channel that the slave to the left of it is mixed with previously...so by changing this to a plus, you are make Master throttle and Slave aileron, and whatever else Aileron is combined with in a previous setting.

"PROG.MIX Throttle-->Aileron
Did not work as expected. Throttle input moved only the first aileron (channel 4). The p.mix did not move all ailerons together as ailerons?? "

The mix below and the Throttle Camber mix is again (as in first paragrah) the same as the Throttle to Aileron mix you just mentioned:

"PROG.MIX Throttle-->Elevator
Did not work at all. Throttle input did not drive any of the aileron or flap channels at all. "


Sincerely,
Krysta
Product Development & Support Specialist
Futaba Service Center USA









Old 11-20-2007, 12:37 PM
  #3  
multiflyer
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Default RE: 12Z mixing for flying wings ??

Krysta,

Thanks for the reply. I tried your suggestions, and still have problems. In the original post I did try each of these cases separately. Each was tried with all the others off. So now lets break this up into individual cases and look at each one separately.

For Airplane, 2 aileron flying wing, normal tail type. RUD-AIL feature works as expected, but RUD-ELE feature does not.

Here is what I did:
1 - Re-select Airplane model type, 2 aileron flying wing type, normal tail.
2 - Data reset - All Model Setting (now everything is cleared).
3 - RUD-ELE MIX activate and enter a % for rate A and B
-- No elevator response on either surface to rudder stick inputs.
(this is exactly what I did for RUD-AIL mix and it worked fine)
4 - RUD-ELE MIX “Link” activated.
-- Still no elevator response on either surface to rudder stick inputs.
(Link was not needed for the RUD_AIL mix to work)
So your reply for this question in the above posting does not get it to work ??


For PROG.MIX Throttle to Aileron, and Throttle to Elevator.
Activating the “link” feature as you suggested in the above post did fix the throttle to aileron response. Both ailerons now move with throttle stick input.
However the link feature did NOT help throttle to elevator. Still absolutely no response by either sruface to to throttle stick input.

Here is what I did:
1 - Re-select Airplane model type, 2 aileron flying wing type, normal tail.
2 - Data reset - All Model Setting (now everything is cleared).
3 - I even verified RUD-AIL and RUD-ELE are both inhibited after the data reset.
4 - PROG.MIX, activate, assign throttle as master and Aileron as slave, set slave Link +, enter a % for rate A and B.
-- All good. Both surfaces respond with aileron movement to throttle stick input.

5 - Then go into that same PROG.MIX and simply change slave assignment from Aileron to Elevator.
-- No response by either surface to throttle stick inputs.

Start over and try it again:
1 - Re-select Airplane model type, 2 aileron flying wing type, normal tail.
2 - Data reset - All Model Setting (now everything is cleared).
3 - I even verified that RUD-AIL and RUD-ELE are both inhibited after the data reset.
4 - PROG.MIX, activate, assign throttle as master and ELEVATOR as slave, set slave Link +, enter a % for rate A and B.
-- No response by either surface to throttle stick inputs.

I think something else is going on here ???

Bryan
Old 11-20-2007, 01:16 PM
  #4  
Krysta
 
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Default RE: 12Z mixing for flying wings ??

See answers below:


Sincerely,
Krysta
Product Development & Support Specialist
Futaba Service Center USA



ORIGINAL: multiflyer

Krysta,

Thanks for the reply. I tried your suggestions, and still have problems. In the original post I did try each of these cases separately. Each was tried with all the others off. So now lets break this up into individual cases and look at each one separately.

For Airplane, 2 aileron flying wing, normal tail type. RUD-AIL feature works as expected, but RUD-ELE feature does not.

Here is what I did:
1 - Re-select Airplane model type, 2 aileron flying wing type, normal tail.
2 - Data reset - All Model Setting (now everything is cleared).
3 - RUD-ELE MIX activate and enter a % for rate A and B
-- No elevator response on either surface to rudder stick inputs.

This mix will not work, as your Elevators are now Ailerons per the wing type you chose. You must select the Rudder-Aileron mix for this.


(this is exactly what I did for RUD-AIL mix and it worked fine)

4 - RUD-ELE MIX “Link” activated.

Again, Rudder to Elevator will not work, per the wing type..

-- Still no elevator response on either surface to rudder stick inputs.
(Link was not needed for the RUD_AIL mix to work)
So your reply for this question in the above posting does not get it to work ??


For PROG.MIX Throttle to Aileron, and Throttle to Elevator.
Activating the “link” feature as you suggested in the above post did fix the throttle to aileron response. Both ailerons now move with throttle stick input.
However the link feature did NOT help throttle to elevator. Still absolutely no response by either sruface to to throttle stick input. This is again, because your radio is recognizing the Elevator as Aileron because of the wing type chosen.

Regarding the mixes below, again this all falls on to which wing type was chosen, you will need to mix Rudder or Throttle with Aileron, not Elevator.

I guess I am confused here as to why, if you are getting aileron movement out of both servos in the Rudder to Aileron mix, why you are wanting to do a Rudder to Elevator mix. You elevator is now your second servo per the wing type you selected.


Here is what I did:
1 - Re-select Airplane model type, 2 aileron flying wing type, normal tail.
2 - Data reset - All Model Setting (now everything is cleared).
3 - I even verified RUD-AIL and RUD-ELE are both inhibited after the data reset.
4 - PROG.MIX, activate, assign throttle as master and Aileron as slave, set slave Link +, enter a % for rate A and B.
-- All good. Both surfaces respond with aileron movement to throttle stick input.

5 - Then go into that same PROG.MIX and simply change slave assignment from Aileron to Elevator.
-- No response by either surface to throttle stick inputs.

Start over and try it again:
1 - Re-select Airplane model type, 2 aileron flying wing type, normal tail.
2 - Data reset - All Model Setting (now everything is cleared).
3 - I even verified that RUD-AIL and RUD-ELE are both inhibited after the data reset.
4 - PROG.MIX, activate, assign throttle as master and ELEVATOR as slave, set slave Link +, enter a % for rate A and B.
-- No response by either surface to throttle stick inputs.

I think something else is going on here ???

Bryan
Old 11-20-2007, 02:31 PM
  #5  
Bax
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Default RE: 12Z mixing for flying wings ??

What, exactly, are you trying to set up? Don't tell us how you have the transmitter set up, but tell us what the airplane is, what control surfaces it has, and how you want the model set up. Then we can help you determine what settings on the transmitter should work.

Thanks,
Old 11-21-2007, 06:06 AM
  #6  
multiflyer
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Default RE: 12Z mixing for flying wings ??

Krysta and BAX,

Thanks again for the support. As Bax suggests, here is a description of what I am trying to set up.

In a nut shell, I simply want to do all the usual mixings that we modelers traditionally use to correct for unwanted trim changes, or to introduce desired trim changes. This is what programmable mixers were originally developed for. I know you are very familiar with the examples I am about to give. The point is that each of these examples are just as applicable to designs without a separate horizontal tail (flying wings), as they are to designs with a horizontal tail.

1. When throttle changes are made, there are often pitch changes that results. So mixing throttle to pitch control is traditionally used to tailor this behavior as desired. For a design without a horizontal tail, the elevator “function” (or camber “function”) is the “pitch” control. So with the 12Z how do I mix throttle to pitch control (either elevator or camber function) with any of the flying wing model types?

2. When the landing gear is lowered there is often a pitch change that results. Mixing gear to pitch control is traditionally done to compensate. So with the 12Z how do I mix gear to pitch control (either elevator or camber function) with any of the flying wing model types?

3. When a separate airbrake is actuated there are often pitch change that result. Mixing airbrake to pitch control is traditionally done to compensate. With my 12Z I noticed the AIRBRAKE to ELEVATOR Mix in the Model Menu does work for this as you would expect.

4. When a payload is dropped the CG may change resulting in a pitch trim change. Mixing payload auxiliary channel to pitch control would traditionally be done to compensate. So with the 12Z how do I mix an aux channel to pitch control (either elevator or camber function) with any of the flying wing model types?

5. Every design has its own natural pitch coupling and roll coupling characteristics with rudder input. Mixing features of computer radios traditionally allow these couplings to be enhanced or reduced as desired. Mixing out unwanted pitch and roll during knife-edge flight is a common example. (Yes, many designs without separate horizontal tails can still do knife-edge flight). For another example a semi-delta wing design I have rolls the wrong way and tucks a bit as a result of rudder input. I can make it a docile sport flier by mixing out the unwanted roll and pitch coupling with rudder input. With any of the flying wing model types, the RUD to AIL feature in the Model menu works fine, but the RUD to ELE feature does not. So with the 12Z how do I mix rudder to pitch control (either elevator or camber function) with any of the flying wing model types?

Again, eliminating the horizontal tail does not eliminate the need for all these very common reasons to mix into the “pitch control function.” So how can the 12Z do this for any of the flying-wing model types.


Krysta,

You replied that the elevator channel(s) are now ailerons. That is true. However, they are still elevators also, and so are the all the aileron channel(s). They all perform both pitch as well as roll control. I would be glad to mix to “elevon” but these new Futaba radios don’t have that. They have the flying-wing model types instead. You also have said that Program mixing to elevator or camber is the same as mixing to aileron. How can that be so? Aileron function causes a roll response, and Elevator or Camber functions cause a pitch response. That is “pitch” control for a plane without a horizontal tail.

In another thread I asked what the “virtual” channels are for. In reply you referred me to a thread entry written by Bax that described them as:

“a way to a way to add a control to the transmitter without using up a slot at the receiver, or to make other kinds of mixing very simple. One way to use this would be in a delta wing model, for example. Normally, you'd use an elevon mixer, but you'd be mixing ailerons and elevators, and then worry about having the directions correct in the mixes, and having to know which channel should work on what side of the model, and on which side you mount the servo arms. A virtual channel makes this very easy.”

That made perfect sense. With any of the flying-wing model types, the elevator and camber functions show up as virtual channels, but the 12Z won’t let me Pmix to them! It’s as if the equivalent of the “Link” option is not enabled for these functions? Also I noticed in the Function submenu of the Linkage Menu I can assign any Tx control to the elevator or camber functions, but I can not assign a Tx control as a trim. It’s as if the equivalent of the “Trim” option is not enabled for these functions??

The software architecture does not seem to be consistent in how it uses the virtual channels. When any flying-wing type is chosen, elevator shows up as a “function” at one of the virtual channels. However Aileron does not? Aileron shows up at one of the actual channels. I would expect the Aileron “function” to show up at a virtual channel just as Elevator and Camber functions do. I would then expect to be able to mix to or from each of these functions as desired??

Note: I know the 12Z will allow me to use a Pmix to mix directly to any one individual aileron or flap control surface. However, for example if I build a model with 4 ailerons and 4 flaps, and it needs throttle to pitch correction, and airbrake to pitch correction, and rudder to pitch correction, and gear to… …. Well you get the idea. There are not nearly enough Pmixers, or hours in a day, to do all these individually.

Thanks again for your time. I await your reply?

Bryan
Old 11-26-2007, 11:14 AM
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Bax
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Default RE: 12Z mixing for flying wings ??

Apparently, you cannot mix to a virtual channel. To do what you want to do, you'll need to use two mixes for each of the types of trim you want to do, and mix to the channels involved, and not the functions. One way to get extra mixes is to use conditions, so you can activate a condition that gives you the pitch mix when you lower gear. Just use the gear switch to activate the condition.

The other alternative is to manually compensate on the elevator stick.

We will let Futaba know of this difficulty.
Old 11-27-2007, 02:50 AM
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multiflyer
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Default RE: 12Z mixing for flying wings ??

Bax, krysta,

Thanks for the reply. Regardless, I really do like this radio. It represents a significant improvement in capability available. That is especially appreciated for controlling complicated scale models and unusual designs, as is my interest. The above brings up a question. Would anyone be interested in my feedback regarding improvements or features that I would like to see added in the future? If so, who/where would I send those suggestions to??

Bryan
Old 11-27-2007, 10:36 AM
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Bax
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Default RE: 12Z mixing for flying wings ??

You can send the suggestions on this web page: http://www.futaba-rc.com/suggestion.html

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