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JC 60cc Engine

Old 11-26-2010, 11:13 AM
  #26  
DadsToysBG
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Default RE: JC 60cc Engine

I don't know anything about the engine, but I find the comment from rchobbydood strange. He is testing a engine that is new. He says " I've used 3-w for many years" Joined here in July and has 17 posts and he doesn't know who TOM is. I thought anybody that flys gas and is on any of the forums knows who TOM is. I guess I could be wrong. Dennis
Old 11-26-2010, 11:35 AM
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Default RE: JC 60cc Engine

He might not know who Bugman or Gerhard are either?
Old 11-26-2010, 11:49 AM
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Default RE: JC 60cc Engine

I'll bet you do w8ye. I just thought it strange that a person that owns a LHS hasn't been around here much, but what do I know. I got to test a engine from Spain once. Tried to send it back after many problems and couldn't get them to even answer my e-mails. Should have sent it to TOM. Dennis
Old 11-26-2010, 12:36 PM
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Default RE: JC 60cc Engine

He is the owner of Bobs Hobbies. His name is Steve Thomas and he is well known in the professional flying circuits (Top Gun) and is the new distributor for JC engines.
Old 11-26-2010, 12:37 PM
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Default RE: JC 60cc Engine


ORIGINAL: BadAzzMaxx

I think you might be right about the 3

Have you run your DA60 yet or are you knee deep in snow yet.

Milton
O.T.
Milton you have a crystal ball or something? It just showed up at the door....
Old 11-26-2010, 12:41 PM
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Default RE: JC 60cc Engine

ORIGINAL: Super08


ORIGINAL: BadAzzMaxx

I think you might be right about the 3

Have you run your DA60 yet or are you knee deep in snow yet.

Milton
O.T.
Milton you have a crystal ball or something? It just showed up at the door....

Yea, I ordered it for you last night. LOL

Make have to wait untill spring to run that new DA60 you have coming.

OPPS I thought you talking about Snow. LOL

Milton
Old 11-26-2010, 03:21 PM
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Default RE: JC 60cc Engine

ORIGINAL: Super08

He is the owner of Bobs Hobbies. His name is Steve Thomas and he is well known in the professional flying circuits (Top Gun) and is the new distributor for JC engines.

To be candid Super08, I've never heard of the guy either, "professional flying circuits", Top Gun, or anywhere else. I wish him the best of luck with his distributorship since it appears JC has now found another to accept the responsibility.

I'll have to admit I'm not paid to fly someone's "team" model of build a "scale" plane. All the stuff I work with I'm paid (call it professional) to do but you might call all of it "full scale" even though the aircraft are on a "reduced size" level. I don't mount engines on a test stand and spin up as much RPM as possible, or hook engines up to fish scales to determine power output. I'm afraid it's a little more sophisticated than that.

I learned that props run up in a static condition, like a test stand or executing a limited distance pull on a fish scale, doesn't provide anywhere close to the true output of an engine. Prop blades stall when they are restricted to a static position and the limit of what they provide occurs when the blades stall. So prop/thrust charts are useful, but only up to the point a prop stalled, which is very early in a static environment. All the convertable energy after that point is never measured because the stalled prop became an air brake, limiting the engine, so most people don't have a clue what their engines or propellers can actually provide where performance is concerned. Happens the same way on a dyno so wind tunnels or other ways of moving the prop through the air are required to find answers.

Most people prop an engine for achieving the maximum RPM, which is really quite easy to do. Those engines will do "fast" work but never provide the output they were designed to provide. For the guy that wants to drag a light model with a high lift airffoil around the patch that stuff works out pretty good but what happens when they need to set up an engine to pull a very heavy plane having a high aspect ratio wing for extended periods of time while maintaining a fuel economy that doesn't require a 10 gallon gas tank for 8 hours of flying? That fast response prop just won't do, and the engine will consume far more fuel than the plane can carry for a needed flight duration.

Even the light plane, 3d, warbird, fast mover crowds can benefit from better understanding the relationships of a propeller to an engine. Once people get away from static thrust charts they start to learn about wider blades, increased diameters, tip shapes and cross sections, and how those relate to engine performance. Why? because they left the race for RPM and discovered the meaning of power. The ability of an engine to perform work, not just seeking an answer to how fast that engine can do a little bit of work. Some might find that all that time they were chasing the peak RPM they were wasting an engine's potential because the best performance was to be found 400 to 800 RPM below what all the other engines were hitting at "peak" RPM. Unfortunately those answers won't be found in an internet forum with the question of "what's the best prop for..." because the answers will be limited to the lowest common denominator. That denominator is usually the least amount of cash that was required to buy a "suitable" propeller, and the reluctance to spend in the quest for perfomance limited experimentation and published selections.

Such is the case with 3w. All those people that have been trying to match the short stroke engine RPM peaks have been passing well past the peak torque of a 3w engine. The next thing you hear them say is how such and such engine outperforms a 3w. They also forget that an engine's ability to shed heat and continue providing all that power while under stress is another important aspect of an engine's qualities. Now take that JC 60 and the 3w 60 and put them in a 35 pound plane and point them straight up. Prop that 3w with an inch more diameter and see just how much stronger that JC is. Better still, pit that JC against a 3w 56 twin and watch the JC start to cry. The JC may be good, and it's definately cheap, fitting that specific need of 90% of the people in this forum, but it's not possible to be that good. Copies of other products never are.

You have to have the ability to conduct a little engineering R&D to be able to stay on top of the pack, else all you're doing is playing catch up. Most all the engines out there copy another in one manner or another but the name players like DA, 3w, MVVS, BME, RCS, and DLE (yes I said DLE) go a few steps beyond and make subtle or significant changes that aren't generally transferred to the molds of the copy artists.

So ultimately we have a new dealer for JC that has found a venue he can get some mileage without having to spend anything on advertising. Not the first time it's happened and it won't be the last, but hopefully the new guy will state what he hopes to accomplish beyond making a buck. Until then everyone should give him some room to discuss the product with factual test values obtained from woking the engines hard to establish their endurance and reliability. I'd say 15 or 20 engines worth of data over a couple hundred hours of run time on each should provide a reasonable comparison basis.
Old 11-26-2010, 03:48 PM
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Default RE: JC 60cc Engine


ORIGINAL: Tired Old Man

ORIGINAL: Super08

He is the owner of Bobs Hobbies. His name is Steve Thomas and he is well known in the professional flying circuits (Top Gun) and is the new distributor for JC engines.

I wish him the best of luck with his distributorship since it appears JC has now found another to accept the responsibility.
That is one of the main problems, No one has accepted the responsibility, Everbody just keeps side stepping that.

Milton
Old 11-26-2010, 03:55 PM
  #34  
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Default RE: JC 60cc Engine

I have had my prototype for 3 or 4 weeks now and have test flown it in a 88" YAK 54.
It flew the model well, it starts easy and was reliable, and it will do all the rolling harriers torque rolling hovering you want.
But I wasn't completley happy with it.

To start with, I thought it was me expecting to much and give it time it will improve, so I continued to play with different prop combos etc
and with a bit more run time it will dial in.
But that just has not or is not happening.

When I first got the engine it wouldn't start. Once I cleaned the carb out got the silicon or what ever it was from behind the screen, all was good.
So my first thoughts were I still had a carburation problem.
Talking to one or two other dealers there seems to be a trend that we are all stone walling around 7000RPM

I do know what the problem is but I will be tearing my engine down tomorrow for a proper inspection just to confirm my findings.

Overall Am I dissapointed with the engine..?? NO

After all these are prototypes that were sent out and are suppose to be used for R&D

As these are the first ones to be released, I 'm sure you will all agree if nothing was found wrong with them then thats the time to worry..!!

Kevin for all his faults is doing this bit right I have emailed him with my findings lets hope he listens..!!

Paul



Old 11-26-2010, 06:05 PM
  #35  
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Default RE: JC 60cc Engine

The same thing go with props. How many are tested in a wind tunnel. I know that Vess does and when I talk to him I realize how little I know. I still can't explain a to c props, but I do know they work. Thats why I leave it to the guys like TOM and Vess to keep me straight. Dennis
Old 11-26-2010, 06:52 PM
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Default RE: JC 60cc Engine

I don't know anyone that has the A to Z down on props...anyone. It's a murky science loaded with math, theory, and reality. Lots of young aero engineers with no history of actual flight put all their faith in theoretical designs just to have them blown out of the water in the tunnel or in actual practice. You come up with a starting point and refine, refine, refine from there. The process never ends. I have a lot of respect for Vess because he does it right and gets samples into the wind to see the practicality of a design. I may not agree with him but I definately respect his talent.
Old 11-26-2010, 07:17 PM
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Default RE: JC 60cc Engine

I hope someone can explain something to me.

Is this the same 60cc engine that everybody is saying is a proto type the same engine that Henry posted about 2 months ago had already been in testing for over 9 months or is it a different engine.

Henry claimed at that time it was a power house and he should know, Was stating he was the exclusive US dealer at that time, But don’t really know who owns that title now.

Edit
Also would like to know if this is the same engine that was suppose to be assembled in the US. ????

Milton
Old 11-26-2010, 07:29 PM
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Default RE: JC 60cc Engine



Not sure if I should post this here, but I'm gonna....

TOM,

I have an older version (K or L can't remember..lol)3W 60 and 3W 40 both are the ones with long crankshafts. Both were boughtbrand new at a SwapMeet a few years back ($450 for both....hard to pass up!).I have quiet a fewtanks through the40 and just got around to running the 60 about 5-6 tanks through it. Anyway I was just wondering if youcould suggestsome prop sizesfor each engine...I've been running aTBM 22-8 on the 40 and a XOAR 23Bon the 60, but I also have a 3W 24-10 I'm gonna try on the 60. Any info would be appreciated. Also I wish some of these light 50-60cc engines had the power that 60 seems to have!

Old 11-26-2010, 09:06 PM
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Default RE: JC 60cc Engine


ORIGINAL: BadAzzMaxx

I hope someone can explain something to me.

Is this the same 60cc engine that everybody is saying is a proto type the same engine that Henry posted about 2 months ago had already been in testing for over 9 months or is it a different engine.

Henry claimed at that time it was a power house and he should know, Was stating he was the exclusive US dealer at that time, But don’t really know who owns that title now.

Edit
Also would like to know if this is the same engine that was suppose to be assembled in the US. ????

Milton
I guess that I have too second your question as well. I have been waiting for the 38 since it was anounced back in April. I thought that I was on track with all of the goings on with ownership/dealership swapping hands thing and then the 60 got brought up as being released before the 23 and 38 are. I'm just sitting back and waiting. It's almost like a Soap Opera on these engines. I should have my wife get on here and try to decifier it for me.
Old 11-26-2010, 10:59 PM
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Default RE: JC 60cc Engine


ORIGINAL: Brandon15



Not sure if I should post this here, but I'm gonna....

TOM,

I have an older version (K or L can't remember..lol) 3W 60 and 3W 40 both are the ones with long crankshafts. Both were bought brand new at a SwapMeet a few years back ($450 for both....hard to pass up!). I have quiet a few tanks through the 40 and just got around to running the 60 about 5-6 tanks through it. Anyway I was just wondering if you could suggest some prop sizes for each engine...I've been running a TBM 22-8 on the 40 and a XOAR 23B on the 60, but I also have a 3W 24-10 I'm gonna try on the 60. Any info would be appreciated. Also I wish some of these light 50-60cc engines had the power that 60 seems to have!

First, don't plan on high RPM numbers with the 3w's. Shooting for them shoots yourself in the foot. Look for wider blade props that are extremely stiff. Such as a laminated prop. PAU and XOAR both make some of the better props of that type. They will cost more but you will notice the difference on the 60. I think the better laminated wood props work better than some of the slimmer carbon ones. The 60 will swing the 24 but pay attention to the cooling flow through the engine. You might want to try an 8" pitch with a 24 to see how that work out. The type of flying you're doing will determine the size prop to a great extent. If you can maintain good throttle response the engine can handle the prop. That throttle response is helping you know what you need to do with the tuning to keep everything in line.

Just remember that a general rule is that greater diameter equals more thrust while greater pitch equals more speed. Then you have the other end where a smaller diameter with a lot more pitch equals more speed but it takes longer to get there. 3w's can handle an inch more diameter generally.
Old 11-26-2010, 11:14 PM
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Default RE: JC 60cc Engine

That last sentence is a killer lmao!!!

I best lay off the sauce, I'm getting twisted.
Old 11-27-2010, 12:22 AM
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Default RE: JC 60cc Engine



LOL!



BTW......Thanks for the reply TOM! I put all that in the think tank...

Old 11-27-2010, 12:33 AM
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Default RE: JC 60cc Engine

from cactus aviation website:

When 3W started engine production of the 3W120B2 (old style technology in 1985), a casting of an existing chainsaw cylinder was used. 3W modified this cylinder with 2 additional transfer ports milled into the cylinder. Timing had been changed as well. Both steps were taken to increase power and torque. Then 3W received their own customer number on this cylinder design.

3W was never satisfied with this design. They have always been looking for more torque and power while still running in lower RPM bands. Hence, in the last few years they came up with a lower RPM, higher torque cylinder design. This new design used the 2 large transfer ports, adding 2 small transfer ports and a 30 degree angled exhaust port. This would give the new style engines (including the 3W150iB2) a faster saturation (filling) of the crankcase. Approximately 30% more than the older style 120 ccm cylinders. And with the 30-degree angled ports, give much faster release of exhaust gases. All 3W Engines develop their optimum power/torque curve between 5500 RPM and 6100 RPM. Anything above this is really giving you not much more than prop noise.

All our engines now use the Nikasil liquid plasma coating, which incidentally is done by the same company that coats the cylinders for BMW Motorcycle cylinders. 3W has minimum play between cylinder and Piston; 0.015mm = theoretical lifetime – 2000 hrs. before TBO. You may want to compare these numbers to other engine manufacturers to get an idea of what their criteria are. There are no engines in the U.S., to my knowledge, that can make this claim. Also all cylinders are classified which are a solid engineering practice and a base for a long lifetime. The reason for this cylinder classification is to keep a very close cylinder/piston tolerance. This is why, if you notice, all 3W cylinders are stamped on the top "A" or "B" to designate classification. Again, to my knowledge, no other gas engine in the US can claim this. All gas model engines in the US have open tolerances. The 3W crankshafts are forged instead of turned making for a much stronger unit. The metallurgy process is superior. 3W crankshafts are 2mm thicker than any other that have been checked. Crankcases have structural webbing for strength. The longevity of the 3W engines far exceeds the compromise made for a few extra-added ounces in some 3W engines.

The new ignition system 3W developed creates a 30% more powerful spark than its predecessor. Spark gap can be increased to .020 thousands for a softer and cleaner burning process. Giving a much better midrange burn. We have also experienced some widespread ignition cap problems. This problem is mostly directly related to the higher voltage the ignition is developing. Also some customers are running very high cylinder head temps due to inefficient cooling. 3W has corrected this problem by the time this information goes on this website. Again, not every customer is experiencing this problem. In addition, 3W has its new modified carburetors on the big block engines (120,140,150). This includes the Front Intake and Rear Intake engines. This is giving the engines virtually a 0 to 100% linear throttle response, thus making the midrange transition a problem of the past. Quique Somenzini flew this carb as a prototype at the 1999 T.O.C. with pleasing results!

All this gives the new 3W150iB2 a maximum power output of 17 – 18 H.P. Static thrust 84 lbs. To 97 lbs., depending on propeller size.

In closing, 3W and Cactus Aviation are working together to bring you, the customer, nothing short of the very best in "Two Stroke Technology".
Old 11-27-2010, 12:43 AM
  #44  
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Default RE: JC 60cc Engine

ORIGINAL: norbert001
Overall Am I dissapointed with the engine..?? NO

After all these are prototypes that were sent out and are suppose to be used for R&D

As these are the first ones to be released, I 'm sure you will all agree if nothing was found wrong with them then thats the time to worry..!!

Kevin for all his faults is doing this bit right I have emailed him with my findings lets hope he listens..!!

Paul
I think Paul has hit the nail right on the head in his post. Anyone who thinks coming out with a successful engine in the first version is easy should think again. A lot of testing, R&D and re-hashing needs to be done. Look at other manufacturers and the problems they have had with many of theirs.
Remember the problems JC had with their 53 and later the 28? Both turned out to be good, reliable and powerful engines but only on v3 or so.

It seems obvious to me that where things have gone wrong is in some over zealous marketing of an engine that wasn't off the drawing board at the time and some more simiarly irresponsible marketing-speak statements still coming out.
From pictures and videos that have been floating around, it looks clear to me the engine has potential but a lot more work needs to be done on it. There are some obvious strong points there but also things we don't like seeing.

If we manage to see through the hype and a good dealer to work with the factory on the 60, there is no reason why it cannot eventually become a good solid engine
Old 11-27-2010, 02:58 AM
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Default RE: JC 60cc Engine

Super08,
You have a very dirty mind, but since I caught the innuendo I guess I do too.

Tomy,
With the exception of the ignition description the 3w blurb you posted is right on based upon my experiences with a great many of their engines. I haven't worn a 3w out yet and I can attest to the piston to cylinder tolerances. There are more than just A and B top assemblies but the hobby consumer would never see them. It's interesting to see someone from your side of the world reading 3w advertising, but of greater interest is the accuracy in their descriptions. Even the HP values quoted are within independantly obtained test results with any differences attributed to atmospheric variations between the time and place of the dyno runs. One can say 3w's are expensive but it can also be said they aren't telling their customers lies about engine performance. I've done a lot of engine use and testing and know I can always get more RPM out of a 3w but, like the advertisement stated, you don't gain output by doing so.

This is an area that many using engines from other manufacturers could find a lot of noise and power benefits if they would only step outside the box and start experimenting with different propellers. It's sort of like drag racing. You don't win races if you aren't willing to spend money on performance. Many might find that by using a larger prop at a lower RPM they could gain in thrust and lower noise levels. The JC might be one of these. Going for the big numbers may not be the best idea.
Old 11-27-2010, 11:23 AM
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Default RE: JC 60cc Engine


ORIGINAL: apalsson

ORIGINAL: norbert001
Overall Am I dissapointed with the engine..?? NO

After all these are prototypes that were sent out and are suppose to be used for R&D

As these are the first ones to be released, I 'm sure you will all agree if nothing was found wrong with them then thats the time to worry..!!

Kevin for all his faults is doing this bit right I have emailed him with my findings lets hope he listens..!!

Paul
It seems obvious to me that where things have gone wrong is in some over zealous marketing of an engine that wasn't off the drawing board at the time and some more simiarly irresponsible marketing-speak statements still coming out.

Right
And when I tried to tell people this in the JC/YDA thread, I was bashed and told I should be banned from the thread. LOL

Now I see where JC is offering a three year warranty with there engines but I can’t seem to get engines serviced that had a two year warranty. ????

It was posted to send them to BJ but that did not work out, He does not have parts and no one would agree to pay him for fixing the engines, I guess he is suppose to do it for nothing.

Now there is a new dealer but there site say’s they will only service engines they have sold.

I have been contacted in the last few weeks by three customers with problems, Two have contacted JC with no response back to them.
Had one to contact me this morning but had to give him the same old song and dance of I just don’t know.
The said part of this whole deal is I still get calls from customers that I updated there engines wanting to know if they can still get them, But I guess that bridge has been burnt.

All i want to do right now is to take care of customers that have bought a engine from me.

Milton

Old 11-27-2010, 12:24 PM
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Default RE: JC 60cc Engine

Seems the piper always plays the same tune with most of the Chinese engines. Manufacturer lines up dealers, dealers sell engines. Manufacturer gets bent out of shape because dealer didn't sell enough engines and cuts off dealers. Manufacturers fails to support previoulsy sold engines. Manufacturers never shipped the parts required for warranty work so dealer inventory is disassembled and used for parts. Parts supply runs out with last engine on the shelf. RCGF did exactly the same thing, now JC and RCGF have new dealers.

There is no reason for this business model to be this way, or to continue. If the dealers and manufacturers had some honor and ethics the previous customers could get their issues taken care of, similar to the way Valley View stepped in to pick up the slack when DL USA hit the dirt. I don't know that VV ever got compensated for saving the DL/DLE name by doing what they did but it built the VV name into one to be respected. DA does the same thing by taking extremely good care of their customers. Southeast RC appears to be starting down this path. Companies like this know who their customers are and who will be coming back to buy another engine or more later. They are telling you, the customer, that they intend to stay in business for awhile and that you, the customer, is what will keep them in business.

The consumer controls this practice. If they want it to stop all they have to do is not buy the products until the manufacturers elected to support their products though any change in dealers. The manufacturers would include a parts inventory with each shipment of engines. Those parts would be in the dealers hands BEFORE the dealer initiated product sales. The dealers would refuse to sell an engine prior to having spare parts in their inventory. If they used more than two brain cells they could look beyond the cheap purchase price to determine it may not be so cheap afterall.

What I find extremely amusing is the number of people that will do business with manufacturers having a history of no honor. In essence, the silly customers bend over in anticipation of what is to come. "Hey buddy, look how cheap you can buy this engine!! All those other engines cost twice as much as what I'm selling these for. Good deal, yea?"
Old 11-27-2010, 01:02 PM
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Default RE: JC 60cc Engine

Great post!
Old 11-27-2010, 01:12 PM
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Default RE: JC 60cc Engine

I have often wondered about this warranty arrangement and how model engines are handled differently from many other industrial goods.
My main business (being in IT) takes a good deal of its revenue by representing several computer manufacturers and providing warranty repairs to those.
It makes no difference if you bought your computer or laptop frm Acme Ltd or other "dealers" (retailers in our case), we carry out the service and get paid by the manufacturer.
Parts are also supplied to us directly from the manufacturer on job by job basis.

Same thing applies to cars. Does anyone "have to" take their car to the dealer they bought it from for warranty work?
We wouldn't be very happy with such an arrangement.

Most if not all the model engine manufacturers tout an X years manufacturer's warranty, yet the various dealers state they will only honour warranties on engines sold by them. In the same breath, these dealers claim to be "distributors" and have some unique relationships with the original manufacturer.
This has never made any sense to me!

Here is quite a common history as I can see it
Dealer A buys 100 engines from manufacturer B and sell them.
Dealer A then goes incognito but opens up again 3 months later as dealer C
Dealer C buys another 100 engines from manufacturer B and also sells those
Where does the consumer who bought from Dealer A go for support?

This is not manufacturer's warranty, it is a dealer warranty

Old 11-27-2010, 02:40 PM
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Default RE: JC 60cc Engine

Ahh, but there's a rub in that. The dealer sells an engine represented by the manufacturer to have a warranty of "X" period of time. That places a liability on the manufacturer to provide the dealers with the parts required to perform warranty work. Not having the parts means the dealer, at least those that possess honor and ethics, have to disassemble engines originally intended for sales to have parts for warranty repairs. That eventually runs the dealer out of business because what he had bought for a profitable sale is being used up for parts, labor, and shipping he's not reimbursed for. Pretty soon he is paying for the privelege of making a sale instead of profiting from one. There lies the road to bankruptcy for the dealer.

Having followed the trail of so many Chinese engine manufactuers, some have a very solid track record of failing to EVER send out warranty parts to the dealers or "factory authorized" repair stations. Nor do some of them bother to reimburse the dealer for sales lost due to disassembling complete engines for parts. Bill Jensen, the poor guy, has been assailed by people told he did warranty repairs for certian engine lines but he never sees any parts come in for the work. So he can't do any warranty work on that product. This is where the "dealers" fall down. By not insisting on having a parts inventory BEFORE they start marketing the engines, they end up with zero leverage later when those parts are needed. In effect, their desire to make a quick buck on an engine sale overrides any sense of commitment they may have had where supporting the product is concerned. So they enable the manufacturer with their own level of greed.

Then you have another class of dealer. The one that's only in it for the quick buck. Many of those are the E-Bay sellers but there are people that do this on a much larger scale. They initiate a relationship with an engine manufacturer, buy a container or two of engines, sell them out, and disappear when the problems start to appear, only to reappear selling the same product under a different product name a few months later. You and I can easily name one engine that goes by about 6 different names. All have the same parts but each has a different price point and warranty policy, as worthless as it is.

Now we move to the manufacturers that cut off their previous dealers in engines and parts. Some of those also fall into the previous category. RCG/RCGF, Area 51/JC, are two of at least three that have done this. Their dealers sold a lot of engines but some tiff or another occurs and the Chinese manufactuer gets pithy and cuts off their dealers, leaving all the previous customers on the hook without any means of obtaining warranty repairs from the previous dealers. No parts are availble because the manufacturers suddenly refuses to honor their written warranties. No matter how much one of those dealers wants to support the previous customers they cannot because they cannot get any parts. The new dealer picking up the line thinks "I didn't sell those engines and I don't have any parts so why should I take it in the shorts? I already know the manufacturer is not going to reimburse me for working on those engines."

The Chinese know perfectly well there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING the consumer can do about it. They know they are fully isolated by geography, that any legal action brought by a consumer will never see the light of day because of the level of debt bought up by the Chinese, and there is no way to enforce the collection of any judgement even if a case ever went to court. Worst case is they change their product name from ABC to DEF and motor on after initiating a new round of stupid low pricing to grab attention. That has happened a few times already.

Well, I hate to tell them, but there is something that can be done about it. A couple of things really. One is real simple. If people don't buy engines made from manufacturers that have a history of cutting off dealers and warranty work then that manufacturer will eventually get hungry. Those manufactuers might finally fail, leaving the good businesses in place to sell good products. The new dealers will pay a stiff price but they need to get involved in leveraging the manufacturers too. Force them to support their earlier products. There are some legal angles as well but since I'm not an attorney I can't voice them. Those are real hard on dealers though, and it's not the fault of some dealers that manufacturers don't give a chit about their customers.

Now ya'll know why I'm not an engine dealer.

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