Mastertech

My Feedback: (31)

Pattern fliers today rarely ever go to full throttle. I fly 90% of my sequence at 1/2-3/4 stick which relates to about 4500-5000 rpm's. Seems slower is the current trend in pattern world now. We've largely gotten away from IC engines and moved over to Electrics. We've went from turning .60's with 11x7 props in the 80-90's at 15k on the ground to 4 strokes turning 10-11k with 14x10 props on the ground to 4 strokes Turning 8-9k on the ground with 17x12-18.10 to Electrics turning 6500 with 22x14 props. The torque is instant and the thrust is amazing. It is now possible to stand a modern day pattern plane on it's tail sitting on the ground and throttle up and go as high as one wants to. The size difference from today's pattern plane to those even 10 years ago is dramatic to say the least. One can take a fuse from an 90's airplane and it'll fit inside the fuse of todays airplanes with plenty of space to spare. The electrics today are FAR superior to ANY gas or nitro engine out there period in this size. The added bonus is they are so quiet you cannot hear them in the flight realm most of the time. Quite a bit unnerving to have to get used to that I tell you.

I predict that larger Electric motors will by pass gas engines in the next 4-5 years as the power plant of choice in IMAC style airplanes. The limiting factor right now is the batteries, this WAS the limiting factor for pattern planes only a few short years ago. The hand writing is on the wall fellas.

Tim

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

I agree with the instant torque response of the electrics. I have to disagree with batteries being the current limiting factor, and redirect that to cost. Electrics require more "fuel tanks", meaningbatteries, and they cost a bundle. So do speed controls.

rmh

Th cost of really GOOD batteries is falling - fast - due to the proliferation of battery powered everything
I designed pattern planes for years - then IMAC stuff and TOC planes etc..
The performance of the electric models -done correctly exceeds anything available from IC engines
I do like futzing with gassers -good ones - but I fly electric almost exclusively now. Th new Chinese inexpensive 20-30 cc types fill a real "hot spot" for many modellers -
cheap reliable -enough performance and noise to be fun to use .

pe reivers

NOT!
Life is not always as easy as "da=the" statistics tell you.
Electrics have HUGE adavantages, yet the man's mind reaches out for FIRE. The fire in combustion engines is a very primitive power. The race is on between designers of electrics to be MUCH better than IC engines. Personally, I prefer IC engines and how they convert heat into power. What's interesting about comverting Voltage into power? Amps? You must be kidding!
Donning all the armour I see near me! FWIW, it may not be enough, but hey, I'm an old fart, so be kind.

Mastertech

My Feedback: (31)

I'm talking about batteries above 6s. Electric is far cheaper (Now) to run than glow even with having to buy batteries and an ESC.

A good set of batteries for my 2x2 Pattern plane run about $80 a set. If those last 100 flights ( they last more than that BTW) the cost is less than .75 cents per flight. Compared to glow at $30 a gallon for 30% and we get about 8 flights to a gallon........

The math is easy, A YS1.70 with the exhaust and a vibe mount is well over $1200 now. Top flight Elect motors are about $500 with a $300 ESC. Pretty easy choice. Given the fact the vibration from Glow and even Gas engines beats the heck out of airframes and servos makes the overall cost even cheaper.

When I first started with Electrics it was in a small Heli. We were paying $60-$70 for a battery we can now buy for $8.

Gas going up and glow fuel going up along with noise factor thrown with those engines are going to be the death nail.

Electrics have their own set of problems to deal with but are getting better and better every year.

I very much enjoy Electric to IC now and I was a hard convert. I was one of those that giggled at the electric stuff, I was a "Real Man" and ran IC. My how times have changed. [8D]

Tim

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

I was there when electric was first being used for small and light "floaters" and powered gliders and saw the hand writing on the wall then. The times are getting close to where they will be very desirable but they still haven't reached the point where the costs amortize out in a reasonable period of time for a 35% to 50% gas powered aerobat. 10s or 12s batteries do not come cheap, you have to budget for three or more sets for a flying day, and need a charging system that does not yet exist for recharging in a reasonable period of time at reasonable cost. Once the battery has been flown out there is a long time period before they complete the recharge cycle. 8 to 10, 6-10 minute flights a day can be pretty expensive to set up for. You can't use your auto battery to recharge them unless you are willing to walk home due to a dead car battery. The alternative is to maintain a 6,000 watt generator at flying sites to power battery chargers. The price of electrics just went out the window with that additition.

Pattern electrics today cost far more on a percentage basis that a comparable sized gas powered plane. I won't even try to compare with glow because glow has been prohibitively expensive for a very long time with larger engine sizes. If it wasn't for the hobby dealers using glow fuel as a significant profit item it would still be a higher cost, but the difference would not be as significant. It's still hard for large electrics to be cost competitve with a good gas engine. Glow can't compete at all with either of them.

One has to consider the complete chain of power requirements when considering electrics. Sort of like electric cars where people wrongly believe they have a smaller carbon footprint. Just the opposite is true, they have a much larger one.

pe reivers

I am with Pat here.
Glow had it's day when displacements were small. In the current F3AX scene 80 - 170cc gas engines rule, though electrics have a "foot in the door"
Let's do the math.
Legal safe voltage is 50V, above that is a different ball game, not for the faint of heart. (heart literally)
To get 12kW, you need 250 Amps. (few guys know what THAT is)
This 12 kW willl get you 9.6 prop kW which is 12.9 hp, or a good 116cc gas engine!
Current F3AX runs 170cc engines, so electrics still have a loooooooooong way to go. There seems to be a tech barrier in the Voltage limit. Above 100 Amps electrics become "sparkling", and not toy planes any more. This only is 5kW!, or the equivalent of an 80cc engine at leisurely pace.
Having said the above, there is a place for electrics. Also, there is a place for IC engines. It all depends on use and money on the table.

Super08

My Feedback: (2)

I will stay with IC just for those reasons. I tried a small three cell one and even with four batteries I would be waiting for them to charge. I much prefer to fuel up and go. That and I love the primitive raw power, noise, and smell. It is just not the same without it.

pe reivers

Thumbs up on that one. Considering personal emotions only.
However, electrics do have a place and field of application. Just think high altitude, and noise limits. The latter is not quite true, because power equals prop noise. New rules are called for.

onewasp

Pe,

I'm even older !!

After 47 years flying IC I tired of it all and had just about hung it up on RC.
Then a friend sent me his set up on electric and after saying 'no' to anything but IC
I finally tried it.

Completely and totally hooked ! That was 3 plus years ago .
Talk about power, idle, instant torque and reliability well, I became one of them !

Not however the dart about like a 'bee in a bottle' aerobatics but smooth Precision Aerobatic flying.

I had my day with the noisy stuff (including full scale race cars) but now I really enjoy the electric experience !
QUIET is fun . It is, however, startling to hear the prop only noise. It is not insignificant.

pe reivers

I'm from '43 vintage and remember the tommy planes fly overhead to chase the Hun away from hells triangle. (operation Market Garden)
 

rmh

I soldmy 160ZDZsetup ( one of the best big engines I ever had) then the 80J then the others etc..which all performed extremely well but my inherited eye degradation finally kicked in - so I opted for stuff I could fly up close.
The A123 cells which can be charged immediately after use and run hot for even more power made electric flying as simple as pie -
Now I have switched to diesel power for noise thrills

rmh

I read about that cock up -
shame how it fared
I was a kid watching B24's being flown from the factory to the coast and playing soldier with wooden guns and watching the guards lazily herding German POW's as they thinned sugar beets in Idaho.
Those prisoners had it VERY well - The camp was in Sugar City Idaho, 10 miles from our house

Rcpilot

My Feedback: (78)

Oh I know it doesn't matter to you TOM. You and I think almost identically on a lot of these points. I'm just not as eloquent with my use of the English language as you. I'm more blunt and to the point - like it or lump it. Not many can handle it.

The faint of heart on this website that would run around with their panties in a twisted wad, if I said what I REALLY feel.

captinjohn

I have been flying my Giles 202 (1.40 size) with a DLE 30. It is the smoothest plane I have flown & lands super easy! I flew it yesterday (3 flights)...we got a warm spell...not for long thow! Happy New Year Capt,n

Rcpilot

My Feedback: (78)

I know EXACTLY what that is. I work part time on a commercial UAV and we use a 50v system with 250 amp ESC. Our brushless motor is slightly larger, in diameter and length, than your average North American beer can. Can't divulge the RPM. Output is around 12.5Kv. We use that motor to turn a VERY LARGE ducted fan.

It's dangerous as hell. Those kinds of amps - even DC - can stop your heart or at the very least burn a finger off - under the right circumstances.

We built a test stand and used a power supply to provide constant power for testing different props and fans inside a tube. Ear plugs are mandatory if you want to hear anything for up to 3 days after a hour of testing that beast in the shop. I also bought a hard hat, full face shield and a kevlar apron to wear when operating the test bench.

I really don't like electrics at all. I guess I'm old fashioned. The sound of a gas engine turning 7000 - 8000RPM is music to my ears. It stirs my heart to hear a finely tuned IC engine "sing"

I love a G202. Almost bought an old Wild Hare G202 from TOM once. But I couldn't figure out how to go and get it. Shipping was too expensive.

pe reivers

Oh dear! Finally a kin soul who knows how dangerous electrics are for our community.
Not a whim, I mean this literally.
In the plug and play world we live in, the high power at the turn of a button or the flip of a switch make me shudder by the thought of shredded meat.

onewasp

___________________________________

Though all electric now, as noted earlier, your point is well taken.

There is an entirely new set of safety procedures to be learned.
Electrics 'can' bite big time !!!!!

In the battery business (spent my working life at it) things change as the voltage increases.
Anything over 90v. is "no way" !!!!!!
Nothing in the system was ever engineered for that force.

On a human basis DC (battery) voltage over 40 volts may be quite dangerous.
In fairness however, a lot of things have top fall into place for that to happen.
Sometimes they do !

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Built an electric set up to do some propeller noise comparisons awhile back. Took a whole lot of batteries and one custom "in house" speed controller to handle everything. We were VERY careful with the operational side of it. Fuel cell technologies will probably work out better.

Funny how loud 3 blade propellers can be once passing a given RPM. In their own way (tone/hertz) louder than a comparable thrust 2 blade. The worst part of our IC "engine" noise is not the engine, it's the prop.

Captn,

I know you're enjoying that 30 sized Giles but you'd be kicking yourself in the butt if you knew how much better a 35% and 41% version flew. Not practical for you but they get a lot better! I still have both of them.

pe reivers

In my working days, I was, amongst other jobs, responsible for our firm's FMEA programme (Failure Mode and Effect Analisys). Main issue was, that if things COULD happen, you had to evaluate the consequences (in company cost and human suffering) and the probability of that happening. A point awarding system would indicate design corrective actions required. The engineers had to respond to these studies. Sometimes evenyears later when the predicted event DID happen.
An electric motor in the nose of a model airplane would be banned under these conditions for sure! Too many failure modes that can lead to human and material damage. Only point of debate would be the power limit allowable. Just scratching power, or slight chopping (meat shredding) power. APC props with their sharp tips for sure would be a BIG No-No.

pe reivers

We would have made a great team! I loved working close with our test department.

captinjohn

<hr />TOM, I am sure the bigger giles fly real nice. If I win the Lotto maybe I will get something with class like that to fly. Heck...maybe one airplane for each day of the week.

In the meantime, I do like the size of plane that does not take up so much airspace. Even though we fly at a full size airport...there is not so much airspace as is needed by 35% & 41% size planes. Other guys are finding that out fast...getting yelled at for flying over close by roads & hangers...ect.

I have been to many fly-ins and take very close notice ofhow various airplanes fly. To me the smaller size planes look identical to the bigger ones but are much more nimble to fly & take up less airspace. A good pilot can do anything a bigger aircraft can do and maybe with more ease. Also less dangerous and less expensive. Again ....I do liketo watchbig planes....like the big 4 engine jobs. You could not give me one thow. Nappy New Year Capt,n

do335a

And don't those Chinese know it!

I still prefer my Webras and Nova Rossi. Those guys understande engines. To them, they are a living breathing thing with a personality, not just a blob of metal.

Super08

My Feedback: (2)

Amen to that. I can't count how many close call I have seen and also had myself with electric power when the rx is turned on only to find the throttle was open a click or two. I shudder at the thought of this happening with a large one. My new tx has an alarm that goes off if the throttle is not fully closed when it is turned on.

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

I was at the field and a guy turned his 2.4 transmitter off without first unplugging the battery and he had his fail safe set backwards and the electric motor went full throttle.