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DLE-111 first start... warranty used, but things are looking good.

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DLE-111 first start... warranty used, but things are looking good.

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Old 06-04-2011, 12:15 PM
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wpmcnamara
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Default DLE-111 first start... warranty used, but things are looking good.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_8tr_37cwM[/youtube]
Quoted from my description on the video:
Initial start of a brand new DLE-111. Before the video starts, I had set the throttle closed and choke on, then rocked the prop till fuel was in the carb. The video starts with the first flip of the prop with the ignition on.

First flip is with the choke on and the throttle at about 10%. After the pop, I took the choke off, flipped several times, choke on, flip till pop, choke off and start. Once it was running, I moved around to the port side of the engine, about 10 feet behind and 30 deg to port. You hear the engine slow as it drop the throttle trim to check the low idle point. Now it is time for the first run up. Transition was not bad considering this engine was new in the box and never run be fore this video. Was just about to throttle down and... Well, the video speaks for itself.

This is why safety is important kids. Video camera was on a tripod and I was well back from the test stand.
I haven't torn the engine down yet. Need to contact the seller first, but there is internal damage. The crank is bent. I took the carb off and the back counterweight is visibly out of aligment. So, the question is, what was the cause? Propeller failure? Backfire/misfire? Bad timing? I didn't adjust anything from the way it came out of the box. I wanted a baseline before I started messing with things.

I attached a series of still taken from the video that capture the event. The first two stills are "normal". In the third you see part of the propeller separate and fly off down and to the left. It embedded about four inches of the tip into the ground. The next three show the rest of the prop disintegrating and flying off. The video was running at 60fps so the engine came to a dead stop from full throttle in 1/20th of a second, may even as little 3/100ths.

The stop was so abrupt that it sheered four of the six prop bolts clean off at the hub and the other two are bent significantly. You can see the stand twist under the sudden torque if you compare stills three and four. It didn't make for a good day, but it certainly is impressive to watch.

wpm
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Old 06-04-2011, 12:33 PM
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Default RE: DLE-111 first start... warranty used, but things are looking good.

Wow, sure wish there had been sound with that, and I would sure like to see the inside of that engine!!

AV8TOR
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Old 06-04-2011, 01:26 PM
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Default RE: DLE-111 first start... warranty used, but things are looking good.

There should be sound on that video. I heard it when I was checking it before I posted.

As far as the insides go, I will certainly post pictures if I tear it down.

-wpm
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Old 06-04-2011, 01:31 PM
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Default RE: DLE-111 first start... warranty used, but things are looking good.

How much oil content in the fuel?
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Old 06-04-2011, 01:36 PM
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Default RE: DLE-111 first start... warranty used, but things are looking good.

I did watch and listen to the video with care. To my ear it sounds likea metalic sound like loose tappets on a 4 cycle....but this is a 2 cycle. My guess a piece of the insides broke...and jammed the crank from turning. I would expect a new engine under warrenty. That is if youdone the correct oil mix...ect. Capt,n
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Old 06-04-2011, 02:03 PM
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Default RE: DLE-111 first start... warranty used, but things are looking good.

30:1 as specified in the manual. That video is the entire runtime on the engine. I know what lack of oil can do, but you'd have to have pretty much nothing to kill it that quick.

I couldn't see any signs of broken through the crank opening when I took the carb off. Both connecting rods look ok. Obviously can't see the pistons or rings, so mabe its further up the cylinder.

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Old 06-04-2011, 02:14 PM
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Default RE: DLE-111 first start... warranty used, but things are looking good.

I think it would be very interesting to see some pictures of the inside of the engine.

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Old 06-04-2011, 02:22 PM
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Default RE: DLE-111 first start... warranty used, but things are looking good.

Yep, my bad. Sound works fine. Having computer problems here...

Oh yeah, now that I heard it run, I definitely hear abnormal sounds while it was running!

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Old 06-04-2011, 02:36 PM
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Default RE: DLE-111 first start... warranty used, but things are looking good.

The way the prop bolts failed , and the way the prop failed, suggest over torque. i didn't hear anything at all odd except for the four stroking as the engine did all it could to stay running when run at too low of an RPM. Engine vibration levels were consistent with an engine running generally right and assembled correctly. An off set crank will just about shake itself off the front of a plane above half throttle, if it managed to run at that high a throttle setting.

I'm not seeing a manufacturer error as the cause.
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Old 06-04-2011, 04:20 PM
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Default RE: DLE-111 first start... warranty used, but things are looking good.

The prop was drilled on a a drill press and the prop bolts to tightened until the lock washers compressed, no further. The bolts were not bottomed out and for the ones that sheered off, I was able to back out the what was left in the hub with just finger pressure on the end of the bolt. That said, when I first watched the video, frame by frame, my thought was that the prop failed.

The metallic ping in the audio was there, and I did notice it, when the engine was running. I chalked it up to the hollow aluminum cans that they call "mufflers". The video camera accentuated that sound, I think.

Now, some questions for TOM, Antique (who I'm sure will show up soon), and the others that have been doing this longer than I have been alive. First, I grew up working on two strokes, but they were chain saws and lawn mowers and, to the last one, single cylinder.

1) Assuming both cylinders mis-fired at the absolute worst time at full throttle, Would it be enough to "instantaneously" stop the engine?
2) Would it be enough to bend the crank?
3) Assuming the prop failed asymmetrically, in other words shed one blade, Would the imbalance be enough to "instantaneously" stop the engine?

Quick math says the prop is spinning between one and two revolutions per frame in the video. That means that from "fine" to "gone" there are no more than six revs and the engine is stopped.

Assuming that TOM is right and the prop failed first, the theory would be that the imbalance and resulting centrifugal forces are enough to cause the back end of the crank to rotate off center so that the counter-balance strikes some part of the crankcase, correct. I don't know how much play there is in the rear bearings, but I would think that those kind of forces would result in bearing damage. You would also see scaring on the counter-balance and crankcase.

I suppose the only way to know is to take it apart. For those that have done it, how hard are the rings to get back in the cylinders? Do they make ring compression tools that small? I do not want to try and claim warranty for something I did. It's an expensive learning mistake, but if I screwed up, I want to know where and how and then I'll fix it.

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Old 06-04-2011, 04:30 PM
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Default RE: DLE-111 first start... warranty used, but things are looking good.

Maybe I am going deaf from the Dash 60's that I work with but from the very first start up something sound bad. To me it sounds like the prop is loose and moving from the pulses of the engine. May not be the cause but I would have shut down right away after hearing that and tried to figure out where the knock was coming from!

Glad that you were not hurt!!
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Old 06-04-2011, 04:45 PM
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Default RE: DLE-111 first start... warranty used, but things are looking good.

If the prop bolts were not evenly torqued to a minimum of 40 inch pounds this could have happened. Too tight, too loose, obtains the same results.

These engines tear down easy. A metric hex key and fingers gets you to the basic level for making determinations. Same for reassembly.
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Old 06-04-2011, 05:08 PM
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Default RE: DLE-111 first start... warranty used, but things are looking good.

TOM if the bolts were to tight they could cause the same noise??
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Old 06-04-2011, 05:28 PM
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Default RE: DLE-111 first start... warranty used, but things are looking good.

Have a look down the throat of you carb see if everything is still there that should be butterfly screws, etc

Adrian.
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Old 06-04-2011, 05:30 PM
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Default RE: DLE-111 first start... warranty used, but things are looking good.

Have a look down the throat of your carb see if everything is still there that should be butterfly screws, etc

Adrian.
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Old 06-04-2011, 05:50 PM
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Default RE: DLE-111 first start... warranty used, but things are looking good.

I played the video again. The sound of my computer is good....but the sound that engine made is sick. You can even hear a double click (like when the pistonchanges directions) even on the first short burst on start-up. If you say you cannot hear the sick sound...you must be deaf or you computer sound in not good in reproducing the sound track. Sick (defective) engine from the start is my bet. Capt,n
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Old 06-04-2011, 06:00 PM
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Default RE: DLE-111 first start... warranty used, but things are looking good.

Basic inspection says all the carb stuff is impact, but it does bear closer inspection.

As far as the prop moving/being loose, that could be. I need to inspect the prop remenants around the hub, but I do remember seeing more marking on the prop than I expected. Just have to figure out whether they happened before or during prop failure.

-wpm
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Old 06-04-2011, 06:03 PM
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Default RE: DLE-111 first start... warranty used, but things are looking good.

Guess I'll tear it down.
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Old 06-04-2011, 06:45 PM
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Default RE: DLE-111 first start... warranty used, but things are looking good.

Judging from your video considering that you bought the engine from us i would have to see clower pictures for inspection.

The engine was running fine as it should have but the four stroking and struggling to stay running could mean to rich of a mixture.

In regards to a bent crank shaft literally this would be a first for as long as we have sold DLE Engines for an engine to come straight out of the box with a bent crank un likely.

But from watching the video if the crank was bent it would shook terribly and even possibly caused your engine test stand to fall over from the vibrations if it wasnt secure.

Do me a favor and take throrough pictures for me and email me the pictures.

Also failure to tighten all the screws down correctly allowing the minimal amount of play or tolerance can cause a screw to sheer or bend then possibly loose the prop. Important to always tighten all screw down and use blue locktite to ensure the screws stay secure.

And i have had an DLE 111 lose its prop during flight and the engine died before so that can cause the engine to die.

So for to say the crank is bent and vibrating It does not seem to be the case. Again thorough pictures would help me to make a determination.
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Old 06-04-2011, 06:55 PM
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Default RE: DLE-111 first start... warranty used, but things are looking good.

Ok from closer inspection on the video which I am still looking at after pulling it into my video editing software. When i slowed the video down to the point to the prop breaking, the engine is still turning then stops after the prop slings off. Im also noticing a tiny glare at the prop bolts and it seems like a screw was starting to back out causing stress on the other bolts.

So from judging from the video I am seeing one of your screws started to back out and caused a chain reaction of failure screw after screw leading to the center of the prop to crack then break off.

I am still closely watching the video but thats what i am seeing when i slow it down.
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Old 06-04-2011, 07:00 PM
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Default RE: DLE-111 first start... warranty used, but things are looking good.

A seller? Is he a dealer. Send it back. You may void the warranty if you tear it down. Let the seller fix it. If it was a joe blow he may have sold you a bad motor. Shipping damage?
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Old 06-04-2011, 07:22 PM
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Default RE: DLE-111 first start... warranty used, but things are looking good.


ORIGINAL: Razor Hobbies

Ok from closer inspection on the video which I am still looking at after pulling it into my video editing software. When i slowed the video down to the point to the prop breaking, the engine is still turning then stops after the prop slings off. Im also noticing a tiny glare at the prop bolts and it seems like a screw was starting to back out causing stress on the other bolts.

So from judging from the video I am seeing one of your screws started to back out and caused a chain reaction of failure screw after screw leading to the center of the prop to crack then break off.

I am still closely watching the video but thats what i am seeing when i slow it down.
It seems like most engines when a prop breaks...they rev-up instantly because of no load. This engine did not rev-up at all after prop broke. I do not think crank was bent before the run...but sure may be now. So why did this engine rev higher at all when prop broke? Something is strange ! Capt,n
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Old 06-04-2011, 07:36 PM
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Default RE: DLE-111 first start... warranty used, but things are looking good.

Robert is who I bought it from and isn't your "averag joe". Shipping damage is very unlikely. DLE packs their engines quite well.

Let me clarify on the bent crank. I do not in any way think it came with a bent crank. Whatever is there now happened in the video.

I'm going flying tomorrow as the wind has been ferocious here, even for Texas, and it is supposed to be nice, if hot, tomorrow. When I get back, I'll start a documented tear down. If there isn't definite internal failure then I will claim operator stupidity and order replacement parts. Should be interesting regardless.

-wpm
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Old 06-04-2011, 07:49 PM
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Default RE: DLE-111 first start... warranty used, but things are looking good.

I would have to agree it is not recommended to tear down a warranted engine. So we can take care of this read my email that i sent to you and we will get you taken care of.
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Old 06-04-2011, 08:01 PM
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Default RE: DLE-111 first start... warranty used, but things are looking good.



Prop bolts shearing off or a prop failure will not cause an engine to quit period, the prop bolts shearing and prop explosion in this video was an effect not a cause. What I saw in the video;

First flip with the choke on the engine fires, then the operator flips the prop 18 more times with the choke still on, engine doesn't start, fiddle with the carb then flip 4 or 5 more times with the choke still on, no start, finally the choke is opened (you can hear the detent click) then the engine starts and runs. The four stroking was most likely caused by the cup of extra fuel in the crankcase that the engine was trying to digest.

I agree with the Capt'n, it was making a noise that only a metal grinder could make from the very first instant, it should have been shut off within 5 seconds, a more experienced person would have. Regardless, the problem was either there when the engine was shipped from the factory or FOD entered the engine after it was unpacked.

The prop, prop bolt torque, or drowning with fuel had nothing to do with it.

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