MSS999

Right now there are a quite a few interesting threads ongoing about various engines and manufacturers. But these don't help a newcomer decide what to buy - only what they really shouldn't touch.

So here is an attempt to present the good, dependable options for a newcomer to the world of petrol (sorry, gas) engines.

Less than 20cc

Don't bother.

20 to 25cc

Good Prospect: DLE20

Proven Dependable: Zenoah G20; FPE20; Convesion engines by some of the experts e.g. Echo 21cc conversion

Premium: Zenoah G20 on a Toni-Clark mini-pipe (added 27/06).

26 to 30cc

Good Prospect: DLE30

Proven Dependable: Zenoah G26; MVVS/Evolution 26

Premium: Ralph Cunningham Zenoah G26 Lite; G26 on a Toni-Clark mini pipe; MVVS/Evolution 26 on an MVVS tuned pipe; Syssa 30; 3W 28 (added 27/06)

31 to 50cc

Good Prospect: ?

Proven Dependable: Zenoah G38, G45; MVVS/Evolution 35, 40, 50

Premium: Ralph Cunnigham worked G38, G45; MVVS/Evolution 35/40/50 on a tuned pipe; DA50; BME 50 Classic

51 to 60cc

Good Prospect: DLE 55

Proven Dependable: MVVS 58; Zenoah G62; ZDZ; FPE

Premium: Ralph Cunnigham G62 Lite; BME 58; DA60

>60cc

Will not need to ask!

Feel free to copy this list and add your candidates for each category. But let's keep this sensible and real, so if someone is happy with their PQR50 with anodised prop bolt then fine, enjoy, but it doesn't belong in this list for newcomers where the probability of use over the first year without any issues should be better than 99.5%.

apalsson

My Feedback: (1)

Excellent summary!

In the 26 - 30cc category, MVVS have released their new 30cc, so I can only assume Evolution 30cc won't be too far behind.
The specs I have seen are impressive, or:
APC 16x12 - 7,700 - 8,700RPM (depending on exhaust)
APC 18x6W - 8,200 - 9,200 (depending on exhaust)
Weight - basically same as the 26cc

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

As a newbie one should be concerned with only two things. Ease of use and reliability. Any engine that qualifies in those two areas has the power necessary to do the job when the engine is sized appropriately.

Cost should not be a factor in the decision making process, although it most always influences it. To use cost as the deciding standard alone has left many newbies with engines that failed to deliver in numerous areas. It has often required the purchase of a second, better engine, different ignition, etc.,
to overcome the mistakes learned with the first engine, costing far more than paying a little more up front for a good engine would have cost.

MSS999

Agreed. That's exactly where I was coming from when I decided to compile the above list. The interesting thing is that the cost of any of the engines listed above over say one year of use/enjoyment is most likely going to be lower than the alternatives that are initially cheaper to purchase. And over the lifetime of the engine, anyone buying one of the proven or premium engines is going to save a lot of money and enjoy the hobby considerably more.

aussiesteve

See my Sig line?
It was written after experiencing the false economy of lower priced offerings.

An example.
A US made 50cc engine. Retail price (with "stock" exhaust) $618.
A "Cheap( (usually Asian made) 50cc engine Retail price (Including shipping) $375

Proven typical life of th USA made product before it needs to get sent back to the manufacturer for major service - around 200 hours. Cost per hour to this point - $3.09 per hour.

Proven typical life of the Asian made product prior to it requiring major service - around 75 hours - Cost per hour to this point - $5.00 per hour.

Proven typical life of the USA made product before it is no longer useable - well in excess of 1000 hrs so cost per hour based on the 1000 hours - $0.62
Proven typical life of the "Cheap" product before it is no longer useable for practical purposes - anywhere between 1 and 300 hours so min cost per hour based on the 300 hrs - $1.25

Major servicing includes such things as bearing replacements.
"Practically unuseable" means it has become so inconsistent or unreliable that the owner makes the decision to move on to the next engine.

These figures have not taken into account things like crashes. We have all been there and done that. I have even written off an enigne that cost well in excess of $2500 on its maiden flight but it wasn't the fault of the engine. The "lower cost" option is more likely to contribute to an early loss of an airframe.

Then service and parts availability becomes the next thing on the agenda. The "Expensive" option has the parts and service available all year round and for years to come. The "Cheap" option may or may not have the right parts available and depending on where it is purchased from, may well have no practical service support whatsoever.

There are exceptions to every rule of course and I have no doubt there will be some who will say "I have XXX brand that has flown over 10000000 hours on a single tank of fuel and has never missed a beat and it only cost me $1.56 plus shipping", while there may be others who claim to have had "YY" brand that cost them $10,000 and had nothing but problems with them. That could well be to do with the quality of the operator / installer or it may just be luck of the draw also (we all have good and bad days, the difference is whether we admit to them and do something about them)

A typical flight for most flyers is 15 minutes of engine run time. Typical flyers will fly 5 flights per week. That is 1.25 hours of run time per week. To achieve 100 hours, you need to have flown 5 flights per week every week for just over 18 months. Of course that doesn't take into account the amount of time that the less dependable options spend being started and "sorted out" on the ground.

Whenever I hear the latest newbie to the field proudly stating they have bought the latest "cheap" brand, then proceed to try to sort them out, I feel sorry for them. I go and give them advice on such things as needle setting, spark plugs and checking timing. Those that listen get my help, those that "know better" (and usually proceed to injure their arms from flipping or break their planes when they deadstick) get watched as they do it.

aussiesteve

Some additions


Less than 20cc

Don't bother.

20 to 25cc

Good Prospect: DLE20

Proven Dependable: Zenoah G20; FPE20; Convesion engines by some of the experts e.g. Echo 21cc conversion

Premium: None

26 to 30cc

Good Prospect: DLE30

Proven Dependable: Zenoah G26; MVVS/Evolution 26

Premium: Ralph Cunningham Zenoah G26 Lite; G26 on a Toni-Clark mini pipe; MVVS/Evolution 26 on an MVVS tuned pipe; Syssa 30; MVVS 30 on an MVVS tuned pipe
3W 28

31 to 50cc

Good Prospect: ?

Proven Dependable: Zenoah G38, G45; MVVS/Evolution 35, 40, 50

Premium: Ralph Cunnigham worked G38, G45; MVVS/Evolution 35/40/50 on a tuned pipe; DA50; BME 50 Classic

51 to 60cc

Good Prospect: DLE 55

Proven Dependable: MVVS 58; Zenoah G62; ZDZ; FPE

Premium: Ralph Cunnigham G62 Lite; BME 58; DA60; 3W 55

jedijody

My Feedback: (1)

When ALL things are considered and layed out on the table, there is no better engine for a gas newbie than a DLE30 purchased from a reputable authorized distributor with a track record of exemplary customer service. Period, IMO. [8D]

aussiesteve

There is an exception to that Jody

That is when they want a 50cc

Ok - I know - the DLE 55

Ok - what about if the Gas newbie wants an 80 or 85cc then?

WindGap

My Feedback: (3)

These forums are invaluable...

In the fourth grade, as I was leaking into the urinal, I looked up to see public bathroom literature on the wall, "Fools learn from their own mistakes, and wise men from others." With these forums, you can quickly learn which engines work well, and which ones should be used for boat anchors.

BTW, next to the above philosophical bathroom literature, "For a good BUICK, call..."

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

80 or 85?

3w or ZDZ. DA is said to be good but I have issues with the high level of "thump" in that model. If a gas newbie wants to jump into the over 50cc market they need to be prepared to play. That means higher up front expenses, and no whining because of it.

wyo69cowboy

My Feedback: (2)

Is the Evolution/MVVS 80 a good choice in that range? Only ask because there's a lot of nice planes in that size engine range, especially with a lot of the "50-60cc" sized planes getting bigger and bigger...

apalsson

My Feedback: (1)

My entry into the MVVS range was an 80cc which went into my 97" Zero
Easily the smoothest running engine I have and swings a 3-blade 26x10 prop like there is no tomorrow.
This was the one that sold me onto putting MVVS into all my planes

apalsson

My Feedback: (1)

Is that Tower Hobbies?

summerwind

are there any around that you can recommend?

wesaysoracing

Do i detect some stiring here? or some well placed jabs?

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

I certainly hope so

I had forgotten about the MVVS 80. An engine one would be proud to own and fly.

TheRickster

My Feedback: (12)

I would like to add the 3W-55Xi to the 50-60cc class.. I will put it powerwise up against any of the other top manufacturers.. Great engine .. I have had some issues but they were self inflicted..

Rick

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

The premium price of some engines is directly related to quality. Unfortunately the value of that quality often does not become evident until some years after purchase, when your engine is still running strong after your buddy had to buy two more engines after his wore out. Then you have not having to deal with numerous engine "teething pains" generated by incomplete or inadequate designs.

There's currently only one "budget" engine on the market that provides good quality and service, with ever expanding improvements in power and quality. Say hello to DLE. Three years ago I said wait until a few years down the line to see how they hold up. It's now evident that Dong Lin entered the market with a long view, not short. The long view is what his successful countrymen have taken for centuries. The fly by nights makers that entered the market really don't stand a chance against their associates that view business with a hundred year plan. Don't ever doubt that many of them work under such long term planning. It's part of their heritage.

TimBle

Maybe as a gasser Newbie I can comment.

The first gasser fpor me was a tough choice because it was not the engine itself that was the concern, but the size of the plane I would need to be flying.
I flew a couple of 50cc planes owned by club mates and I did not feel comfortable with the speed and size just yet. I also realised they float and landing needs to be quite spot on every time because the gear on these bigger birds tends to break easily (functionof the light weight build).

So withouth knowing how newbie you are to RC flying in general (maybe you have years under your belt or maybe you're moving up from a .40 size trainer) I'd say go for airplane that can accomodate a DLE20.

I made that decision based on a number of factors and I have not regretted the decision. Its a wonderful engine. Ample power, easy to run, economical. It taught me all I need to know for the bigger engines and airplane set up.

Highly recommended.

If larger is your taste then the DLE 30 or 55 is also superb. They just seem to start easy, and run smoother than the cheapies on the market.

If you want a pretteir engine then a Mintor Motori is simply unbeatable

MSS999

I agree with everything that the last post says about engine size. A 20 - 25cc is ideal for starting out in gas for many reasons - ease of handling, ability to use standard size but good quality servos, relatively inexpensice props and so on.

But, it then does exactly what the original post was created to avoid which is to say ...and the anwser is engine XXX....

The answer is a number of candidate engines, three in the above list at 20cc, at different price points and proven quality/longevity levels. But they are all good options which is why they are on the list.

To give you an example where a Zenoah 20 would be a much better option, in most of Europe and parts of the US noise is a major consideration. In the UK none of the DLE engines as delivered can be flown at club sites that comply with the BMFA recommendations on noise. The G20 can because it comes with a very effective silencer as standard. To get the DLE20 down to the same noise level as a G20 would push its weight up roughly to the same level as the G20 and the cost above that of the G20. So for many the G20 may actually be a better option given these differences and its heritage of quality/longevity.

As with most things in life, its a balancing act at different price points whilst working within what I would call reasonable boundaries of risk of failure/disappointment/loss due to the inherent quality of the product.

apalsson

My Feedback: (1)

The same situation is quickly arising in Australia. More and more club sites are under threat because of noise complaints.
An effective method of managing noise levels is through sensible use of props. Because a big portion of the noise generated is prop noise, propping the engine a bit heavier is an effective method of noise reduction.
By concentrating on maximum static RPM as a measure of engine performance, people are causing themselves unnecessary risk to their club sites and in many cases missing out on best performance levels of a given engine.
Obviously, engines are ported for max output at different RPMs depending on make/model/size but in most cases, we can get away with a bit heavier prop. Interestingly, (with one significant exception), the higher quality engines have the max output at lower RPM than the classic Chinese imported ones.

ahicks

My Feedback: (2)

I would have to agree the 20 size planes might work out best for a gas rookie or even a "second plane" scenario. I like the DLE 20 because of it's lighter weight, but can appreciate the comments regarding noise sensitive areas (though I don't view the DLE20 as being excessively noisey). Some have claimed they're more sensitive to carb adjustments. That might be true, but it's something I'm not aware of - but that could be just me. They don't seem to be any pickier than other gassers I've flown.

The DLE 30 is a close second choice. I believe it's very easily handled, but the performance levels available with that engine might have a tendency to put it in the "over the top" category for many fliers. The 10 and 11lb. planes I've seen this engine installed in could be called "obscene" with all the power available. I don't think any but the more advanced fliers are ready for that...

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

We have overlooked one small engine that also fits into the quality engine description. Syssa. An added plus is they have a muffler than can be easily adapted to one having a much lower noise footprint for those with a small amount of imagination.

In rebuttal to the statement about 50cc sized aircraft needing to be "spot on" for landing speeds. I believe that to be a misperception. A correctly designed 50cc aircraft, and there are many, assembled and flown at a weight within the scope of weight to wing area constraints, flys proportionately slower than a 20-30cc plane. They also land much slower when correctly balanced, reducing the loading on the landing gear. The 50cc planes have a wider speed range where landings can be made without damaging the gear. However, a problem arises when the individual transitions from 20-30cc planes to a 50cc and up aircraft. That individual must first learn just how much slower the larger plane can fly an approach and landing before they can learn how effectively the speed can be reduced. Most 50cc newbies I've assisted tried to land their planes much, much too fast, making landings difficult to impossible until they reduced aircraft speed to one where the aircraft could stall in a landing attitude.

Most 50cc planes remian controllable down to ridicously slow speeds and landed safely and effectively in less distance than a smaller plane. The owner only needs to understand and learn that to understand. To do that the owners need to fly the plane at and below stall speeds on the first flights, and not permit fear from preventing that activity. Larger planes are nit as tolerant of side loading the landing gear but that is not the fault of the aircraft. The problem here resides with the user in fialing to use proper control input during the landing phase of flight. If someone has trouble maintaining directional control of a plane on a runway during landing with a small plane there is no other size plane that will correct that inability, nor is there any landing gear that is designed to withstand the side loads that it will be subjected to in the hands of an unskilled flyer. Smaller planes, if you are lucky, just rip the gear out of the bottom of the plane. Larger planes have a tendency to bend the gear long before they are torn out, perhaps permitting a bit more room for error. Bad landings with light composite gear are destructiveto gear regardless of the size of aitcraft.

A wise 50cc and up gas newbie will use an experienced and qualified large plane instructor for the first several flights. That will shorten the learning period and significantly reduce expenses, increasing the "fun factor" of the activity.

Andika

Why would you get the MVVS 40 over the ZDZ 40 ? Does anyone convince me ?

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Much of the evidence would have to be anecdotal, not scientific. If one was to rely on reported reliability the hand would have to go to the MVVS. Same applies to ease of operation. Parts and service would be about equal between the two.