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What IBEC to buy?

Old 10-16-2011, 12:52 PM
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Speedy-Gonzales
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Default RE: What IBEC to buy?

Washigton,California,Oregon.....doesn't matter. You will all slide off into the sea one day.

Until then:

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Old 10-16-2011, 01:01 PM
  #52  
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Default RE: What IBEC to buy?


ORIGINAL: Speedy-Gonzales

Washigton,California,Oregon.....doesn't matter. You will all slide off into the sea one day.

Until then:


ROTFLMAO!!!!!
Old 10-16-2011, 01:26 PM
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Default RE: What IBEC to buy?

Me too
Old 10-16-2011, 02:32 PM
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Default RE: What IBEC to buy?


ORIGINAL: Tired Old Man

I can't resist Do you have to buy an IBEC at all?
I have done range checks with no IBEC, DSM2 equipment passed the ground range checks, but I have not been brave enough to fly anything set up this way, I did add a large rectifier diode in line for the ignition module power, just for dropping the voltage a little.

I fly with the Wike RC IBEC, I love those things!

Old 10-16-2011, 02:50 PM
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Default RE: What IBEC to buy?

My name is Steve and I have ben stung by Wasps also - many times over the years. (Was even a member of an RC club called WASPS once).

The only reason to buy an IBEC is to save a little weight or a little space and those points really are only valid on the much smaller planes we are now seeing fitted with gassers (15cc, 17cc, 20cc - even a 9cc and a 7.5cc are out there). Significantly more weight and space can be saved and significantly less complex systems can be used by going to Gas / Glow or even (horror of all horrors) straight Glow. By doing so, the plane is less likely to disintegrate in mid-air and kill thousands of people than would happen with a poor EI install and not having the latest radio system.

Having said that - on the planes of mine that have IBECs fitted - to save one battery and due to a lack of space in the fuselages (Those planes are a "26cc" bird and a couple of gasser powered profiles). I would not consider anything other than the Ultra RC, The Wike or the latest versions of the Thor. All work mighty fine for me.

Of course - it all depends on which oil should also be run, where the factory should set the needles and what radio brand is the best to use.
Old 10-16-2011, 03:04 PM
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Default RE: What IBEC to buy?


ORIGINAL: aussiesteve

My name is Steve and I have be(e)n stung by Wasps also - many times over the years. (Was even a member of an RC club called WASPS once).
Hmmm.....sort of sounds like the intro you'd do at an AA meeting!
My name is Jim and I too have been stung by wasps.....right over my right eye.

Of course - it all depends on which oil should also be run, where the factory should set the needles and what radio brand is the best to use.
Don't forget this one too....
.
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Old 10-16-2011, 03:14 PM
  #57  
Speedy-Gonzales
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Default RE: What IBEC to buy?

I should change this forum to "Who has the funniest animated attachment"

Lot's of great discussion here. Keep it comming!
Old 10-16-2011, 03:59 PM
  #58  
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Default RE: What IBEC to buy?

Ifeel that it's necessary to dispellthe mistaken belief that a linear regulator can't be used in an IBEC application.It'smostly just a matter of putting a properly designed common mode filter network between it and the noise source.This has to beaugmented with additional low pass filtering, i.e. the supply current passes through a common mode transformer, whichis highly effective at cancelling RFI noise, along with the 2nd stage of the common mode filter, and thefilter capacitor bank in the low pass filter greatly assists the regulator in handling the current impulses when the CDI is firing. Thatassist tohandling current impulses isaccomplished with a mix of a fast, low ESR 100 uF part, and a pair of 470 uF electrolytics that handle the bulk of the initial impulse as the regulator responds. The regulator itselfalso hasto be selectedfor fast response to transients and has to have the PCB layout done properly to allow it to run stabley, and it should be a low drop out device as well.It's also good practice to place a one way opto-isolator in the signal path from the receiver to the IBEC, to assure that there is excellent Galvanic isolation in that path to the receiver electronics.

I've directly looked at the noisein the ground path, and have compared the Ultra IBEC with an olderdesign. That olderdesign had no regulation on it, and used a MOSFET transistor in the ground path to switch power on and off, which when turned on, allows whatever current flucuations andaccompanying noise thatwas let through the low pass filter to reach the receiver. It also seemed to rely somewhat on separatingit andthe CDI from everything with a very longextension from the receiver side, which isn't really the strategy I would pick, since a wire that longhas to get rolled up inside a small model, and is going to be somewhat unpredictable in it's effect on the receiver as a secondary antenna radiating RFI noise. The goal is to eat the noise a short distance from the CDI, not propogate it over a long length of copper.

In contrast, the Ultra IBEC output is very stable, recovers very quickly from each ignition impulse with very minimal ringing, and the noise that does reaches the receiver side is much lower that the other unit that I tested. Range tests prove this out as well.To be fair, this was an older design that I compared it against, and I have not yetlook at any new offerings to see if it has improved performance.

I've gota log of ground range tests performed during development,and have performedmuch inflight testingwithFM PPM and PCM receivers from the '80s to present day, andhave never had a probem with insufficient range with the models Itested. WhenI did inflight testing, itwaswith those same receivers, to the limits that youwould ever fly your modelin actual practice.I have had exactly one report of a range test on the ground thatdidn't pan out from a customer with an FM receiver, sohe didn't fly it. That Ultra IBEC was returnedunder warranty, and a failed solder joint was found to be the cause. There have beenfewer than 10 warranty claimsoverall. As far as spread spectrum goes, it's simply been bullet proof, with over 1500 units in the field in just under two years since its introduction.

I agree with one thing, which is that range tests should be performed, no matter what unit you buy. Depending on how an IBECtype device is designed to provide varying output voltage settings, it may be introducing additional noise of its own origin in the wiring path between the battery and the IBEC, in other words, directly through the receiver power bus. That is a possibility if a switch mode regulator/supply is used in the IBEC, because it canintroduce a high frequency chopping effect to the supply path as it performs its switching. Not saying it can't be done, but it's something to understand. If the rise times are very fast, it's possible to introduce higher frequency harmonics that have the potential of affecting things like the nearby frequency synthesisor inside every spread spectrum receiver. If the design handles that well, it might not beof anyconcern. So, do the range testing!
Old 10-16-2011, 04:37 PM
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Tired Old Man
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Default RE: What IBEC to buy?

Ed,

Your last paragraph had a requirement that so many participating with 2.4 equipment often miss, or believe is inapplicable to them. The range test. Radio manufacturers do them no favors by leading them down the path of a glitch free environment becuae it's 2.4. Nor does using only a 2.4 radio for the glitch testing provide any safety. Any radio installation should be glitch free with 72 mHz equipment for it to be considered glitch free using 2.4. Unfortunately the effort and expense required to perform range tests using dual equipment eliminates all but the range test die hards.

Range test everything. Engine running and engine shut down. Note any differences and question the safety of flight if there is more than a 5 or 10% difference. Use a minimum distance as acceptable, such as 90-100 feet.
Old 10-17-2011, 04:40 AM
  #60  
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Default RE: What IBEC to buy?

I'v had the orange IBEC not sure the name brand from troy built fail on me for some reason it wouldnt regulate voltage and it would just stay on . even though the LED would turn off and off witht activation of the recivers channal but the inigiton itself was always hot and was always whatever my battary voltage was

and tory built didnt offer much support in geting it replaced plus the crazy back order amount .. i order one from sessya so far so good
Old 10-17-2011, 06:36 AM
  #61  
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Default RE: What IBEC to buy?

my sympathies..both for hobby king and troybuilt.I bought an orange rx a while back for a ultra jet and the darn thing arrived DOA.and I bought some MKS servos from TBM and while the servos perform nicely there is really any support for them. there are a number of people who think using an IBEC is a sure fire way to destroy an expensive plane.several good IBEC's are mentioned in here syassa ,aero tech and wilke.beyond them I am unaware of anyother brands,
Old 10-17-2011, 06:39 AM
  #62  
MTK
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Default RE: What IBEC to buy?


ORIGINAL: Tired Old Man

Ed,

Your last paragraph had a requirement that so many participating with 2.4 equipment often miss, or believe is inapplicable to them. The range test. Radio manufacturers do them no favors by leading them down the path of a glitch free environment becuae it's 2.4. Nor does using only a 2.4 radio for the glitch testing provide any safety. Any radio installation should be glitch free with 72 mHz equipment for it to be considered glitch free using 2.4. Unfortunately the effort and expense required to perform range tests using dual equipment eliminates all but the range test die hards.

Range test everything. Engine running and engine shut down. Note any differences and question the safety of flight if there is more than a 5 or 10% difference. Use a minimum distance as acceptable, such as 90-100 feet.
Agreed.... When I purchased my JR12X, I opted to also buy the extra "full range" Spektrum 9ch RXs they were selling in a fire sale of 2 for 1. Very tidy...

Until I went to actually use the "full range" 9 ch RX that is. Bad thing was that it was installed in a 40 sized electric model and when I lost range during the check, the motor came to life and crashed the model into my car. Scared the bejezus out of my flying buds. Horizon replace the so called "full range" RXs with ones that actually work full range

My take away from that experience was to always remove the prop from an electric model when range checking.....
Old 10-17-2011, 02:10 PM
  #63  
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Default RE: What IBEC to buy?

OK Update time

I have been trying out a 42% products "Thor" unit for a few months. I has just failed.
Light goes on - all is well, Operate switch, Light goes out - Engine still runs.

Still works as an IBEC but is coming out of the plane as the next failure could be to cause damage to my control system.

In my mind, that leaves only 2 products left to use for an IBEC.

Wike (through TBM ? - not the most favored of companies )

Ultra RC - through many sources.
Old 10-17-2011, 03:25 PM
  #64  
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Default RE: What IBEC to buy?

What receiver and ignition module do you have in this plane that the "Thor" failed? Is it a "Thor" or the "Mini-Thor"? 42% just sent me a replacement at no charge for my failed "Zeus".
Old 10-17-2011, 03:40 PM
  #65  
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Default RE: What IBEC to buy?

It is the "Thor" (not the Mini).
The radio is a Futaba 2.4 (6208SB receiver / 14MZ TX)
The ignition module is a 3W module (Engine is a 3W 28)
Battery packs are Fromeco LiIons at (6.6v)

They can give me 100 of them for free and I wouldn't use one. I went away from their products for a while after they got an "investor" (I suspect the owners of TBM know whom I am referring to there) to help them "improve" their production and they seem to have gone downhill ever since. I trialled this one in good faith because a friend of mine is a dealer in them and he convinced me to give them another try. In the near future it will only be the Ultra RC ones for me (can't seem to find the Wike's here anyway). I only use them in "space limited" planes anyway and that is a very small part of my fleet.

The unit was working correctly for about 30 flights. What has failed is the "Switch off" function. Part of the reason I use these devices is the ability to shut the engine down remotely with a method other than the throttle. If that has failed on me, it takes away 50% of my reasons for using them. If I feel a product is unreliable, I will not use it.
Old 10-30-2011, 05:09 PM
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Default RE: What IBEC to buy?

I have two Tech-Aero IBEC units. Both on 28cc engines. Both have worked flawlessly. One has 70 or so flights, the other 40 or so. They work as advertised.
Old 11-05-2011, 07:01 AM
  #67  
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Default RE: What IBEC to buy?

I have one of the Wike units.
Although the instructions say it is adjustable, there are no adjustments on it.
It shows 5.99 volts on different volt meters and would like to reduve the voltage for my DLE ignition.

My DLE ignition just took a dump and I'm thinking maybe the voltage was the culprit as expressed
by some in the know on the DLE and RCExl end of things.

Wondering if I can send it in for an upgrade or something?
No response to the email yet, so thought I would check here.

Thanks
Bob
Old 11-05-2011, 10:31 AM
  #68  
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Default RE: What IBEC to buy?

I sent Mike (Wike products) an email earlier in the week. I have yet to hear back from him...I guess I'll go with the Tech Aero Design. After looking at it more I think it may be a little better design.
Old 11-05-2011, 01:21 PM
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Default RE: What IBEC to buy?

I have two Tech-Aero Units. They are great. Have had a Zeus fail on me. To be fair they sent me an upgraded unit quickly. The tech-Aero Units have been great. I am sticking with them!
Old 11-05-2011, 01:30 PM
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Default RE: What IBEC to buy?

Speedy

I live in Columbus Ohio. Winter does suck! It does however make us appreciate spring a whole lot more than those in the warm climates! And we get a chance to repair our planes! At least I have heard that. I never damage mine! (just kidding)
Old 11-08-2011, 06:30 PM
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Default RE: What IBEC to buy?

I can't get an answer from the manufacturer on my older version Wike product.
It is not adjustable and need to cut down the voltage from 6 volts for my RCExl ignition.
Does anyone know if I can put a resistor in the output line of my IBEF to do this?

Thanks for any help
Bob
Old 11-08-2011, 09:57 PM
  #72  
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Default RE: What IBEC to buy?


ORIGINAL: MTK


ORIGINAL: Speedy-Gonzales

MTK,
I was wondering if Syassa was using the Tech-Aero unit. This confirms it and substantiates my own personal decision. The IBEC's are nothing new to the market but they have had time to prove themselves as a reliable product that I think will become commonplace.

Thanks for all the great info!

Please keep your comments, views, and opinions, comming.

SPEEDY
Speedy,

One more thing that wasn't so obvious in the previous discussion, nearly all guys that fly the large IMAC models in my area are using the Tech Aero Ultra IBEC. Although these make alot of sense in small gassies regarding weight savings, they make no sense for weight savings in large IMAC planes.....heck they only weigh a hair more than 1/2 ounce. BUT the IMAC'ers have realized that having a remote switch workable from the TX with a visible ON-OFF LED, is a good safety feature. I like the convenience of this feature a lot since I don't have to reach behind a turning prop after I land to turn an ignition switch off.

There is only one switch to turn on or off and only one battery to charge and maintain. That's a load off one's mind especially if one competes.

Another safety feature that is less obvious is the fact that the channel that controls the remote switching (I use the retract switch), can be set at the correct fail safe condition, OFF. SO IF one loses signal to the RX, the fail safe feature in current radios will kill power to the CDI. Less chance of hurting someone else or yourself. Also much less chance of a flyaway. Someone mentioned that the best IBEC is a battery and switch.....well....can't physically do that with an ignition battery/switch.

Excellent advice
Old 01-02-2012, 09:22 PM
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yl5295
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Default RE: What IBEC to buy?

You can use a linear regulator if you can live with the inefficiency of converting battery power to heat, supply enough peak current during CDI charging pulses (measured with a current probe on a scope - nota DVM), and can support 2.5+ amps continous as that is what some ignitions draw. Pretty much everything you said is correct except for the opto isolator. The noise is going to radiate through power and ground and from the wires... Not through the CPU and the signal wire... How does that common mode choke work on differential mode noise?

Linear are much cheaper to build.... It would probably be a good idea for me to offer a linear version at a $25 or $29.99 msrp for the people who don't know or care about the difference. There is no noise from a well designed switcher...only poor designs have noise.
Old 01-02-2012, 09:29 PM
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Default RE: What IBEC to buy?


ORIGINAL: yl5295

You can use a linear regulator if you can live with the inefficiency of converting battery power to heat, supply enough peak current during CDI charging pulses (measured with a current probe on a scope - nota DVM), and can support 2.5+ amps continous as that is what some ignitions draw. Pretty much everything you said is correct except for the opto isolator. The noise is going to radiate through power and ground and from the wires... Not through the CPU and the signal wire... How does that common mode choke work on differential mode noise?
It works in much the same way as Bumble Bees manage to fly, in spite of some expert opinions that have claimed that itshould not be aerodynamicallypossible. I think that I have provided more than enough technical discussion, and even more in the form of proof of over 2 thousand units that are handling whatever CDI/Engine/Radio combination you throw at it. That's what it's all about.
Old 01-02-2012, 09:35 PM
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yl5295
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Default RE: What IBEC to buy?

I agree... I'll do a linear version at $25 MSRP. I just boxed 500 tonight going to TBM... so I think they both work.

I was skeptical of a linear version but you have convinced me to offer both. The linear is also going to drop at least 0.25V under heavy load so you can not use 4C Nicc/niMh with it or you will havea low voltage goingto CDI. Switchers become a pure on/off switch once batteries get low. You should not fly that low anyway... but you have proven to me that all of these advantages are not needed and I should come out with a lower cost unit which I will in about 60 days.

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