ameyam

Yes, maybe I should have put in a note that gas is good above 90 size atleast for now.

I agree, Saito and OS have lost market share to the DLE20 etc. I myself have just put a DLE20 on a Phoenix Extra 60-90 you know. However, going through the process of refitting made me realise the limitations.

1) With a heavier engine located further forward (due to the requirement of the larger mount as well), the weight saving on the tank and battery was nullified- I had to add more tail weight.

2) The DLE and other gas engines being more prone to vibrations, the fuselage had to be further strengthened which also added weight. I fact, the weight of the model is now over 4kg instead of 3.4-3.6 as intended by design.

3) The gas engines produce more torque then glow due to their higher compression ratios and higher calorific value of gas. Torque and power is not the same thing. The higher torque allows for a larger pitch which results in the same performance. However, gas engines give more power at lower stick settings giving the impression that they have more power

You guys in the US have either suburban bunglows (sorry, there is no other term to describe it) or multiroom condominiums. We, in the east dont. Most of us are still managing in (1BHK or so) appartment complexes for lack of choice in housing. For us, the smell of gasoline is an issue. A lot of aeromodelers our side are still starting out with glow or electric in the 40 size, so far gas hasnt met their needs. It is also very difficult to transport the larger models to the field. I myself, have a good collection of glow engines upto 70 size but still in the in the 60" wing span due to transport limitations. Those on my field who are better off are still limited mostly to 50cc for the same reasons. Its an economic question really

Buy the way, that is a gas jug I was using. No one is complaining (as yet) though.

My reason for moving to gas was due to poor reliability I was getting from glow (its another story, but most on my field agree that a glow engine can cut out anytime. They use either an on board driver for glow ar dont do 3D with it. In fact the club trained doesnt even want to 3D my glow airplanes). Since I have moved to gas and am getting my setup right, atleast there is peace of mind that the engine wont cut once set properly.

I feel the question is what will replace glow. I think the sub 60 size glow will be eventually replaced by electrics as battery technology gets better and the 90plus with gas. Already, most sub 60 models are designed glow/electric while most 90 sizers are glow/gas.

Ameyam

TimBle

some good points some not so good.

ameyam

I agree Tim but in the 90+ class. There the Dles and others are taking over. Sometime back, someone said that anything 120 and above he would replace with gas. I agree with that as well. I dont, howerer, see a gas engine for a 40 size trainer just yet though. Unless some comes up with an innovation, that will be replaced with electric

Methanol in not likely to replace commercial transport fuels as it is still hydrocarbon based. The lower compression it uses makes it unsuitable for heavy torque applications. Ethanol is more suitable for that. Commercial fuel future is hydrogen- either fuel cell or otherwise

You have to forgive my spellings today, typipng with my middle rather than wounded fore finger is making me miss keys
Ameyam

a1pcfixer

My Feedback: (7)

Actual subject of this msg thread is "Would gas engine's influx obsolete glow engines? "
So, going by that I'd say no. But gas IS taking on a bigger market share of hobbyist though.
Look at the higher number of posting on small gassers in only the past year, here & F-G, plus other forums.

As for your typing, I'm a hunt + peck typist, so I got no complaints!

armody

My Feedback: (10)

Wow,

Guys amazing inputs. Well the thing gas engines are getting epidemic to the market, now people can afford it. A guy like me who has plenty of financial constraints getting on the gas, and first project is already costing me an arm and a leg. The nitro plane's yak I got needs plenty of work to done on it.

That's the model I bought http://www.nitroplanes.com/ni20moya1206.html and DLE20

Now question is the construction is OK, but firewall needs to be reinforced. I have been told I can need to use 2 servos for rudder and 2 servos for elevator, 2 for aileron and one for throttle. I bought these servos last year http://www.hobbypartz.com/kahaoubrmo14.html and my mentor has recommended me to get other servos and the guy from the hobby shop said do not use these servos, so I do not know whether I gotta use these servos or not, I had been recommended by my hobby guy that I need to use Hitec's servos HS-645MG Ultra Torque which is costing me $32 a piece. I bought 2 of these, and I'd get 3 more, so I was told that these servos can be used 1 for rudder, 2 for elevators, 2 for ailerons and standard Hitec for throttle. I bought 3 CM6 NGK plugs already, now my question is about servos, what choice do we have.

My sudden transition to glow to gas is costing me much and teaching me as well, so I'm doing it as a learning process and I wanna learn a lot outta it. As far as glow's are concerned are they gonna be obsolete yes I think they would be by manufacturers as they would stop making them, apart from weight of gas engine, gas smells all around the house, inflammability and other stuff like pros and cons between gas and glow. Hobbies and stuff do come with pros and cons which cannot be just set aside, but we go along with it. Similarly IPV4 is gonna be obsolete and IPV6 is already being used and would knock IPV4 out.

Chinese gas engine's influx would eventually obsolete glow engines, but I'm still gonna fly my Strega glow engine plane and gonna install ASP .52 2 Stroke glow on it.

Let more opinions come out and please few opinions about my project.

Thanks


Mody

rangerfredbob

My Feedback: (13)

You could work some of that out and get a little more power out of the glow engines... get a RC EXL ignition with the 1/4-32 plug and still run glow fuel. You would have the extra weight of the ignition and battery but would gain reliability and performance

captinjohn

armody, I bought ths same airplane. I may beef it up a tad....but I think it will be a very nice flying airplane. Capt,n

ameyam

Yes, thats what the others on my field (who are persisting with glow) are doing- some form of onboard glow driver. However, my case is different. In my case, its due to insufficient running-in- those 55ax and 75ax lose power, cut or overheat when hovering no matter how rich you run it. Thats another point of advantage in gas- as long as you use your brains in setting it.

armody, I am not sure of your airplane and current servos but you need those 645MGs or better still the 5645MGs. I use those and they are good. Go for the branded servos for better reliability and longetivity. If the firewall is 6mm or less, you may want to fibreglass it. Remember to use nylock nuts and spring washers wherever possible so nothing vibrates off. If it was meant for glow, the gas engine will sit further forward in your airplane (you need larger mounts) and therefore it will be more nose heavy. And the dle20 produces a lot more power than the 120ax

Ameyam

mpascual

My Feedback: (1)

The new player on small gas engines class:

631 grams including muffler, pump&regulator system, all bolts & gaskets , spark plug and ignition. (battery for the CDI NOT included)

armody

My Feedback: (10)

CaptinJohn,

Yes, no doubt it's a good plane, the transparent material on the canopy is flimsy and canopy does not fit very well, it needs some modifications too along with the firewall. I'm looking for the stand off for DLE20 I don't know which one are those gonna be?

I was given this beam mount for DLE20 and I feel that it ain't gonna work what do ya think?

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXD632&P=FR> this is for .90 CI size glow, I don't know why my the guy gave me that.

Ameyam:-

The servos I'm looking for and considering are these

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXDTB3&P=ML

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXXCZ9&P=ML

And this is my plane ->http://www.nitroplanes.com/ni20moya1...ProductReviews


Mody

cutaway

Most of the commonly available modern glow engines don't need nitro to run.

Methanol, when produced with the LPMEOH "clean coal" process, can be produced for around a buck a gallon and that LPMEOH methanol is dry enough that its directly usable and doesn't need to be dehydrated like more traditional methods that produce pretty wet methanol.

Why haven't we heard about LPMEOH? I dunno. DOE had a pilot plant operating 8 years ago that proved the price points, purity, and yield. The midwest corn lobby is powerful.

MercerAUST

I think 2-stroke Nitros are here for at least another 10 years. Their simplicity and cheaper price (compared to 4-stroke nitro and all gas) means tey are the pick for trainers, beginners and smaller planes. While they can easily be replaced by electrics, most willclubs continue to offer their training in glow and most people getting into IC will start with a 2-stroke Nitro. As RC aircraft and components continue to get cheaper, and the sport takes off in developing countries, the market in nitros will continue with overflow to more developed countries (even if we have to increasingly buy the cheaper engines off the internet). The engines will last a good 10-20 years with only modest care and will always be available in numbers second hand.

Personally, I think gas still has at least 5 years of further development before it could be said to offer a replacement for just about any nitro application. This is particularly the case with smaller (below 120 size) 4-stroke gassers. About the only commercial brand is Saito and these are very expensive. The Chinese are still a few years off from being able tocommerciallymanufacture cheap and small reliable4-stroke gas engines. They still haven't got it quite right with larger motor bike engines.

I moved to 2-stroke gassers for a while, but hate the sound. There should be plenty of opportunity for after-market exhausts that can produce a more pleasant sound without too much power restriction.

In conclusion, I will not buy another nitro 2-stroke, but will continue to buy nitro 4-strokes as required. I will not buy another 2-stroke gas engine, and can't afford another 4-stroke gasser

armody

My Feedback: (10)

[/quote]
I've never used personally any 4 stroke, but when it comes to 4 stroke glow engine, OS, Saito, Magnum, ASP and I don't know about thunder tiger. People have been using Magnum's 4 stroke and pretty happy about it, some people would throw Saito away like piece of trash and prefer OS's four stroke, and What happened to YS's 4 Stroke and Webra's 4 stroke engines? Saito is not the only 4 stroke and ultimate choice left. Anyway it's all preference but I think that whatever brand works for people, that's best. I've seen JBA's Blue .61 2 stroke, on half to 3/4 throttle, the engine was screaming and it's Chinese. Evolution makes pretty good Chinese engines 2 stroke I'm talking about.

I'd love to use a 4 stroke sometimes, when I would have plenty of extra money to spend on R/C. At the moment my project is gas engine, it's being a pain in the.............. also a big challenge but I'm getting there and Chinese engines grabbing market with or without problems and people are buying it with or without hesitation.

Thank y'all for your genuine, honest inputs.

Mody

TimBle

Range is a huge problem with alcohol fuels, especially methanol. Since you need twice the mass flwo rate to compensate for the lower BTU a truck operator is going to need twice the fuel volume to cover teh same mileage which means less cargo since the horse is heavier and more fuel is occupying space. Licensing costs will be higher due tohigher curb mass. Its just not practical as a transport fuel.
For model airplanes it favourable because of the light weight of the glow plug. Spark ignition is better but the high oil content will lead to faster plug fouling.

The corn lobby is indeed very powerful hence ethanol is favoured, but it does have advantages over methanol so the debate is almost a non starter.

MerserAust, I agree that the small glows will be around a while longer. The NGH 9cc gasser may have something to say to that though.
For a beginner electrics is a very expensive game to get into unless you opt to stick to 6cell applications maximum. Thereafter battery prices soar, charger prices soar and everything just increaes in cost in leaps and bounds. Electronics also has no resale value. Glow engines at least still have some resale for a beginner.

IF the NGH GT 9 is a technical success it will become a sales success. The higher purchase price is quickly recovered which does nto happen with electrics as much as the electric fans would have you believe. It and engines like it will sound the death knell for glow but will it take 5yrs, 10 yrs or 20yrs?

captain2

My Feedback: (2)

have a NGH GT17 in my GP Skybolt replacing the OS 91 4s it is 'designed for'. Swinging a 15x8 on the NGH, a 14x6/7 on the OS both in the mid 8000s The NGH is a much neater and easier install inverted than the OS is side saddle. No holes in the cowl other than underneath. A bit more weight but the OS install had lead added anyway, and the power/fuel economy/operating cost not even close. The NGH requires only 2 hand flips choked and then it is first time everytime - idle is 1800+. Oh yeah - it is cheaper... What's not to like?

armody

My Feedback: (10)

Captain2,

How do you like your NGH GT17? Would you mind telling me, where did you buy it from and how much did ya pay for it? Which synthetic oil are u using and at what ratio. I'm just asking you because I totally new to Gassers,. My first Gasser plane which is an ARF is Yak 54 120 by nitro planes and engine is DLE20. I'm gonna start putting it together this Sunday under the guidance of my mentor.

So the choice you made over glow to gas, Did it really make your day?

Mody

captain2

My Feedback: (2)

love it, so far. Not quite the same power as my DLE20 (which I have a Vess 17x6 on) but close and easily enough for most planes that do well with 120 4s. Bought it at Agape Racing and Hobby (Va.) for $244.00 including freight. Highly recommend them, this company has got their s- together. In any case broke in at 20:1, but now run it with the same 30:1 I use for my DLEs - Klotz synthetic

armody

My Feedback: (10)

Awesome Capt,

I bought the same 30:1 Klotz synthetic for my DLE20 as well. Prop size is the same, I bought Zinger 17X6 and there is the plane I bought

http://www.nitroplanes.com/ni20moya1206.html

Agape hobby got their s... together it means that they'd have a great after sales service, technical and customer support too. Though it has a front end or front carb and DLE20 has rear end carb, What did you like better, Front carb or rear one? which one do you think are more easy or they are both good?

armody

My Feedback: (10)

NGH GT 17,

This is a pretty good video here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49PK2Sulnps

captain2

My Feedback: (2)

armody-
just noticed you aren't 50 miles or so from me - why not come down and join us - I'll have the Bipe with me. If you are new to the hobby, the Club does have guys that'd be happy to help you Bring your AMA and something to fly....
http://www.alvinrc.org/

C2

captain2

My Feedback: (2)

not anything wrong with DLEs have had great luck with them - the 20, in particular, an awful lot of grunt for its size. Mine is in a 10 lb Extra and is great. Much prefer the front carb - lots of latitiude with throttle hookup, as well as better accessibility for choke & adjustment. I'll try to take some pics this weekend of my GT17 in my Skybolt and post them here....

armody

My Feedback: (10)

Captain2,

Been flying for the last 7 years, and I've sent ya a private msg, you may check it out. I would love to come to your flying field someday.

Here's our club

http://www.magnolia********.com

Mody

armody

My Feedback: (10)

Capt,

Have ya been using beam mounts on your engines including NGH and DLE's or stand offs?

RBean

I'm not sure about other people but I've been converting over to gas for the last three or four years. Down to two glow planes and they will either be converted to gas or sold (almost given away), probably, because they are that in between size. FS 70 and FS 91. Last conversion was a VQ P-40. It is a good flying plane but just too much trouble to mess with. Make sure glow starter is charged, go buy another gallon of $20-25 glow fuel. Have extra $9-12 glow plug on hand because you never know when they will quit, paper towels and cleaner, electric starter, make sure the starter battery is charged. With the P-40 when the glow plug died had to remove prop, needle, cowling etc to change the plug. Yeah, spark plugs and ignition moduals quit too but not near as often. I've got a box of good use four stroke glows, .90 to 120 size, that I can't sell for half the new price or even a third. Already just gave one away. I had a 120 OS fs in a Great Planes Stearman and did that thing use fuel. On a nice summer day at the field I could go through a gallon of fuel. Also problem of planes getting fuel soaked, not matter what you do to avoid it. And for small planes, electric. I just won't have any in the middle if electric or glow won't work.

armody

My Feedback: (10)

Yeah, I heard that .90 to 1.20 size glow engines are fuel guzzlers. I've also been recommended by the guys who are flying gas engines, that gas engines are easy to maintain and if you wish to stay on glow, then you gotta use 15 to 20% Nitro fuel, which would of course spike up the price of the fuel. I got morgan fuel for almost $15 which was pretty good but my LHS sells for $22. Gas engine conversion expense is one time, then I don't think we need any more stuff to spend on.

I'd only go for Gassers and big planes, cos bigger planes are more stable and fly better.

RBean, I'm sure you gave a lot of thought to it and I'd say wow, it's been 4 years and your transition to gas is still going on. That's cool.

Mody