DLE 20 vs OS 120 AX
04-27-2012, 11:20 AM
#51
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RE: DLE 20 vs OS 120 AX
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
The statement was if torque goes up then power goes up. That is only true if the RPM does not go down. The simple statement ignores the fact that you cannot get more torque from an engine without changing the timing, and that often means you have to time for a lower speed. I know the mathmatics and the equasion proves that the power goes up or down on the same porportion for speed and torque.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which theyare not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing.Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run atits optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque.
This is why I do not like to see the simple statements that hide other factors.
ORIGINAL: TimBle
You love to argue don;t you.
P= 2 x pi x N x T
P, N and T are proportional to each other, When one rises, so do the others. When one falls, so do the others. This relationship is true across the whole rev range. The degree of proportionality can vary due to efficiency at different rpm but the guiding matehmaticl principal and the physics of it is pretty clear.
It is a very true and real statement.
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
You never mentioned any mathematics either unless it was some very early message and I was not responding to you. I used the fast reply by error, I thought i was responding to 1QwkSport2.5r . His analogy was that torque gets you moving and horsepower keeps you moving. Not quite true but certainly truer than the statement that more torque means more horsepower. The latter is only true if the engine is turning at the same speed or at a speed not significantly slower. a 10% increase in RPM increase horsepower 10% which is the same amount a 10% increase of torque increases horsepower.
ORIGINAL: TimBle
I know I didn't. I just left the quotes out. You used the word.
What is stated is a mathematical principal and a fact.
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
What are you talking about? You gave no analogy.
ORIGINAL: TimBle
My analogy is completely true.
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
Only if they get that torque at or near the same speed. Torque is a force, if it is used to turn a crank that does not move then there is no power. When the crank moves then work is being done. Power is the rate that work is being done. Your analogy is somewhat true, torque is the force pushing the car, but to push it faster means more speed thus more power is created as a result.
Intresting fact. AA fuel dragster enginesare too powerful and too unpredictable to test run on a dyno. Thier power is measured from the data of an actual run by measuring the speed and acceleration of the run.
If it has more torque, it has more horsepower
Intresting fact. AA fuel dragster enginesare too powerful and too unpredictable to test run on a dyno. Thier power is measured from the data of an actual run by measuring the speed and acceleration of the run.
My analogy is completely true.
What are you talking about? You gave no analogy.
I know I didn't. I just left the quotes out. You used the word.
What is stated is a mathematical principal and a fact.
P= 2 x pi x N x T
P, N and T are proportional to each other, When one rises, so do the others. When one falls, so do the others. This relationship is true across the whole rev range. The degree of proportionality can vary due to efficiency at different rpm but the guiding matehmaticl principal and the physics of it is pretty clear.
It is a very true and real statement.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which theyare not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing.Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run atits optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque.
This is why I do not like to see the simple statements that hide other factors.
Sport Pilot said: "The statement was if torque goes up then power goes up. That is only true if the RPM does not go down. The simple statement ignores the fact that you cannot get more torque from an engine without changing the timing, and that often means you have to time for a lower speed. I know the mathmatics and the equasion proves that the power goes up or down on the same porportion for speed and torque."
You contradict yourself. If RPm goes down, power goes down as does torque. Then you though in timing concerns to make yourself sound intelligent. We are talking about an engine. no changes needed. I'm at least glad you finally admit the science is sound.
Sport Pilot said: " The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
Ok so in the next paragraph you through the equation out of the window and we're back to alchemy. Power increase results in a torque increase, we agred that previously. Don;t bring mean effective pressure into it because to change that you need to either force more air in via a poump or you need to lengthen the stroke to increase the breathing capacity (more displacement))
Sport Pilot Said:" However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which theyare not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing.Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run atits optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
I mean really now, are you arguing with yourself? So which is it? does glow fuel have more power or does gasoline? and what does "detonate" mean? Do you refer to knock? why does the fuel want to detonate prematurely if too small a prop is used. Over reving has little to do with know unless there excess heat resulting which probably means theres a bigger problem.
But I'm glad you are at least starting to see that Power is proportional to torque and rpm and they rise and fall together, ......even though you then decided that you didn't admit it at all
What the heck, watching you argue in circles is incredibly fun
04-27-2012, 03:07 PM
#52
RE: DLE 20 vs OS 120 AX
ORIGINAL: TimBle
Sport Pilot said: ''The statement was if torque goes up then power goes up. That is only true if the RPM does not go down. The simple statement ignores the fact that you cannot get more torque from an engine without changing the timing, and that often means you have to time for a lower speed. I know the mathmatics and the equasion proves that the power goes up or down on the same porportion for speed and torque.''
You contradict yourself. If RPm goes down, power goes down as does torque. Then you though in timing concerns to make yourself sound intelligent. We are talking about an engine. no changes needed. I'm at least glad you finally admit the science is sound.
Sport Pilot said: '' The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
Ok so in the next paragraph you through the equation out of the window and we're back to alchemy. Power increase results in a torque increase, we agred that previously. Don;t bring mean effective pressure into it because to change that you need to either force more air in via a poump or you need to lengthen the stroke to increase the breathing capacity (more displacement))
Sport Pilot Said:'' However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
I mean really now, are you arguing with yourself? So which is it? does glow fuel have more power or does gasoline? and what does ''detonate'' mean? Do you refer to knock? why does the fuel want to detonate prematurely if too small a prop is used. Over reving has little to do with know unless there excess heat resulting which probably means theres a bigger problem.
But I'm glad you are at least starting to see that Power is proportional to torque and rpm and they rise and fall together, ......even though you then decided that you didn't admit it at all
What the heck, watching you argue in circles is incredibly fun
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
The statement was if torque goes up then power goes up. That is only true if the RPM does not go down. The simple statement ignores the fact that you cannot get more torque from an engine without changing the timing, and that often means you have to time for a lower speed. I know the mathmatics and the equasion proves that the power goes up or down on the same porportion for speed and torque.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque.
This is why I do not like to see the simple statements that hide other factors.
ORIGINAL: TimBle
You love to argue don;t you.
P= 2 x pi x N x T
P, N and T are proportional to each other, When one rises, so do the others. When one falls, so do the others. This relationship is true across the whole rev range. The degree of proportionality can vary due to efficiency at different rpm but the guiding matehmaticl principal and the physics of it is pretty clear.
It is a very true and real statement.
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
You never mentioned any mathematics either unless it was some very early message and I was not responding to you. I used the fast reply by error, I thought i was responding to http://<b><font color=''#00265e'' si....5r</font></b> . His analogy was that torque gets you moving and horsepower keeps you moving. Not quite true but certainly truer than the statement that more torque means more horsepower. The latter is only true if the engine is turning at the same speed or at a speed not significantly slower. a 10% increase in RPM increase horsepower 10% which is the same amount a 10% increase of torque increases horsepower.
ORIGINAL: TimBle
I know I didn't. I just left the quotes out. You used the word.
What is stated is a mathematical principal and a fact.
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
What are you talking about? You gave no analogy.
ORIGINAL: TimBle
My analogy is completely true.
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
Only if they get that torque at or near the same speed. Torque is a force, if it is used to turn a crank that does not move then there is no power. When the crank moves then work is being done. Power is the rate that work is being done. Your analogy is somewhat true, torque is the force pushing the car, but to push it faster means more speed thus more power is created as a result.
Intresting fact. AA fuel dragster engines are too powerful and too unpredictable to test run on a dyno. Thier power is measured from the data of an actual run by measuring the speed and acceleration of the run.
If it has more torque, it has more horsepower
Intresting fact. AA fuel dragster engines are too powerful and too unpredictable to test run on a dyno. Thier power is measured from the data of an actual run by measuring the speed and acceleration of the run.
My analogy is completely true.
What are you talking about? You gave no analogy.
I know I didn't. I just left the quotes out. You used the word.
What is stated is a mathematical principal and a fact.
P= 2 x pi x N x T
P, N and T are proportional to each other, When one rises, so do the others. When one falls, so do the others. This relationship is true across the whole rev range. The degree of proportionality can vary due to efficiency at different rpm but the guiding matehmaticl principal and the physics of it is pretty clear.
It is a very true and real statement.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque.
This is why I do not like to see the simple statements that hide other factors.
Sport Pilot said: ''The statement was if torque goes up then power goes up. That is only true if the RPM does not go down. The simple statement ignores the fact that you cannot get more torque from an engine without changing the timing, and that often means you have to time for a lower speed. I know the mathmatics and the equasion proves that the power goes up or down on the same porportion for speed and torque.''
You contradict yourself. If RPm goes down, power goes down as does torque. Then you though in timing concerns to make yourself sound intelligent. We are talking about an engine. no changes needed. I'm at least glad you finally admit the science is sound.
Sport Pilot said: '' The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
Ok so in the next paragraph you through the equation out of the window and we're back to alchemy. Power increase results in a torque increase, we agred that previously. Don;t bring mean effective pressure into it because to change that you need to either force more air in via a poump or you need to lengthen the stroke to increase the breathing capacity (more displacement))
Sport Pilot Said:'' However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
I mean really now, are you arguing with yourself? So which is it? does glow fuel have more power or does gasoline? and what does ''detonate'' mean? Do you refer to knock? why does the fuel want to detonate prematurely if too small a prop is used. Over reving has little to do with know unless there excess heat resulting which probably means theres a bigger problem.
But I'm glad you are at least starting to see that Power is proportional to torque and rpm and they rise and fall together, ......even though you then decided that you didn't admit it at all
What the heck, watching you argue in circles is incredibly fun
ORIGINAL: TimBle
Sport Pilot said: ''The statement was if torque goes up then power goes up. That is only true if the RPM does not go down. The simple statement ignores the fact that you cannot get more torque from an engine without changing the timing, and that often means you have to time for a lower speed. I know the mathmatics and the equasion proves that the power goes up or down on the same porportion for speed and torque.''
You contradict yourself. If RPm goes down, power goes down as does torque. Then you though in timing concerns to make yourself sound intelligent. We are talking about an engine. no changes needed. I'm at least glad you finally admit the science is sound.
Sport Pilot said: '' The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
Ok so in the next paragraph you through the equation out of the window and we're back to alchemy. Power increase results in a torque increase, we agred that previously. Don;t bring mean effective pressure into it because to change that you need to either force more air in via a poump or you need to lengthen the stroke to increase the breathing capacity (more displacement))
Sport Pilot Said:'' However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
I mean really now, are you arguing with yourself? So which is it? does glow fuel have more power or does gasoline? and what does ''detonate'' mean? Do you refer to knock? why does the fuel want to detonate prematurely if too small a prop is used. Over reving has little to do with know unless there excess heat resulting which probably means theres a bigger problem.
But I'm glad you are at least starting to see that Power is proportional to torque and rpm and they rise and fall together, ......even though you then decided that you didn't admit it at all
What the heck, watching you argue in circles is incredibly fun
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
The statement was if torque goes up then power goes up. That is only true if the RPM does not go down. The simple statement ignores the fact that you cannot get more torque from an engine without changing the timing, and that often means you have to time for a lower speed. I know the mathmatics and the equasion proves that the power goes up or down on the same porportion for speed and torque.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque.
This is why I do not like to see the simple statements that hide other factors.
ORIGINAL: TimBle
You love to argue don;t you.
P= 2 x pi x N x T
P, N and T are proportional to each other, When one rises, so do the others. When one falls, so do the others. This relationship is true across the whole rev range. The degree of proportionality can vary due to efficiency at different rpm but the guiding matehmaticl principal and the physics of it is pretty clear.
It is a very true and real statement.
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
You never mentioned any mathematics either unless it was some very early message and I was not responding to you. I used the fast reply by error, I thought i was responding to http://<b><font color=''#00265e'' si....5r</font></b> . His analogy was that torque gets you moving and horsepower keeps you moving. Not quite true but certainly truer than the statement that more torque means more horsepower. The latter is only true if the engine is turning at the same speed or at a speed not significantly slower. a 10% increase in RPM increase horsepower 10% which is the same amount a 10% increase of torque increases horsepower.
ORIGINAL: TimBle
I know I didn't. I just left the quotes out. You used the word.
What is stated is a mathematical principal and a fact.
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
What are you talking about? You gave no analogy.
ORIGINAL: TimBle
My analogy is completely true.
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
Only if they get that torque at or near the same speed. Torque is a force, if it is used to turn a crank that does not move then there is no power. When the crank moves then work is being done. Power is the rate that work is being done. Your analogy is somewhat true, torque is the force pushing the car, but to push it faster means more speed thus more power is created as a result.
Intresting fact. AA fuel dragster engines are too powerful and too unpredictable to test run on a dyno. Thier power is measured from the data of an actual run by measuring the speed and acceleration of the run.
If it has more torque, it has more horsepower
Intresting fact. AA fuel dragster engines are too powerful and too unpredictable to test run on a dyno. Thier power is measured from the data of an actual run by measuring the speed and acceleration of the run.
My analogy is completely true.
What are you talking about? You gave no analogy.
I know I didn't. I just left the quotes out. You used the word.
What is stated is a mathematical principal and a fact.
P= 2 x pi x N x T
P, N and T are proportional to each other, When one rises, so do the others. When one falls, so do the others. This relationship is true across the whole rev range. The degree of proportionality can vary due to efficiency at different rpm but the guiding matehmaticl principal and the physics of it is pretty clear.
It is a very true and real statement.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque.
This is why I do not like to see the simple statements that hide other factors.
Sport Pilot said: ''The statement was if torque goes up then power goes up. That is only true if the RPM does not go down. The simple statement ignores the fact that you cannot get more torque from an engine without changing the timing, and that often means you have to time for a lower speed. I know the mathmatics and the equasion proves that the power goes up or down on the same porportion for speed and torque.''
You contradict yourself. If RPm goes down, power goes down as does torque. Then you though in timing concerns to make yourself sound intelligent. We are talking about an engine. no changes needed. I'm at least glad you finally admit the science is sound.
Sport Pilot said: '' The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
Ok so in the next paragraph you through the equation out of the window and we're back to alchemy. Power increase results in a torque increase, we agred that previously. Don;t bring mean effective pressure into it because to change that you need to either force more air in via a poump or you need to lengthen the stroke to increase the breathing capacity (more displacement))
Sport Pilot Said:'' However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
I mean really now, are you arguing with yourself? So which is it? does glow fuel have more power or does gasoline? and what does ''detonate'' mean? Do you refer to knock? why does the fuel want to detonate prematurely if too small a prop is used. Over reving has little to do with know unless there excess heat resulting which probably means theres a bigger problem.
But I'm glad you are at least starting to see that Power is proportional to torque and rpm and they rise and fall together, ......even though you then decided that you didn't admit it at all
What the heck, watching you argue in circles is incredibly fun
ORIGINAL: TimBle
Sport Pilot said: ''The statement was if torque goes up then power goes up. That is only true if the RPM does not go down. The simple statement ignores the fact that you cannot get more torque from an engine without changing the timing, and that often means you have to time for a lower speed. I know the mathmatics and the equasion proves that the power goes up or down on the same porportion for speed and torque.''
You contradict yourself. If RPm goes down, power goes down as does torque. Then you though in timing concerns to make yourself sound intelligent. We are talking about an engine. no changes needed. I'm at least glad you finally admit the science is sound.
Sport Pilot said: '' The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
Ok so in the next paragraph you through the equation out of the window and we're back to alchemy. Power increase results in a torque increase, we agred that previously. Don;t bring mean effective pressure into it because to change that you need to either force more air in via a poump or you need to lengthen the stroke to increase the breathing capacity (more displacement))
Sport Pilot Said:'' However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
I mean really now, are you arguing with yourself? So which is it? does glow fuel have more power or does gasoline? and what does ''detonate'' mean? Do you refer to knock? why does the fuel want to detonate prematurely if too small a prop is used. Over reving has little to do with know unless there excess heat resulting which probably means theres a bigger problem.
But I'm glad you are at least starting to see that Power is proportional to torque and rpm and they rise and fall together, ......even though you then decided that you didn't admit it at all
What the heck, watching you argue in circles is incredibly fun
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
The statement was if torque goes up then power goes up. That is only true if the RPM does not go down. The simple statement ignores the fact that you cannot get more torque from an engine without changing the timing, and that often means you have to time for a lower speed. I know the mathmatics and the equasion proves that the power goes up or down on the same porportion for speed and torque.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque.
This is why I do not like to see the simple statements that hide other factors.
ORIGINAL: TimBle
You love to argue don;t you.
P= 2 x pi x N x T
P, N and T are proportional to each other, When one rises, so do the others. When one falls, so do the others. This relationship is true across the whole rev range. The degree of proportionality can vary due to efficiency at different rpm but the guiding matehmaticl principal and the physics of it is pretty clear.
It is a very true and real statement.
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
You never mentioned any mathematics either unless it was some very early message and I was not responding to you. I used the fast reply by error, I thought i was responding to http://<b><font color=''#00265e'' si....5r</font></b> . His analogy was that torque gets you moving and horsepower keeps you moving. Not quite true but certainly truer than the statement that more torque means more horsepower. The latter is only true if the engine is turning at the same speed or at a speed not significantly slower. a 10% increase in RPM increase horsepower 10% which is the same amount a 10% increase of torque increases horsepower.
ORIGINAL: TimBle
I know I didn't. I just left the quotes out. You used the word.
What is stated is a mathematical principal and a fact.
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
What are you talking about? You gave no analogy.
ORIGINAL: TimBle
My analogy is completely true.
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
Only if they get that torque at or near the same speed. Torque is a force, if it is used to turn a crank that does not move then there is no power. When the crank moves then work is being done. Power is the rate that work is being done. Your analogy is somewhat true, torque is the force pushing the car, but to push it faster means more speed thus more power is created as a result.
Intresting fact. AA fuel dragster engines are too powerful and too unpredictable to test run on a dyno. Thier power is measured from the data of an actual run by measuring the speed and acceleration of the run.
If it has more torque, it has more horsepower
Intresting fact. AA fuel dragster engines are too powerful and too unpredictable to test run on a dyno. Thier power is measured from the data of an actual run by measuring the speed and acceleration of the run.
My analogy is completely true.
What are you talking about? You gave no analogy.
I know I didn't. I just left the quotes out. You used the word.
What is stated is a mathematical principal and a fact.
P= 2 x pi x N x T
P, N and T are proportional to each other, When one rises, so do the others. When one falls, so do the others. This relationship is true across the whole rev range. The degree of proportionality can vary due to efficiency at different rpm but the guiding matehmaticl principal and the physics of it is pretty clear.
It is a very true and real statement.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque.
This is why I do not like to see the simple statements that hide other factors.
Sport Pilot said: ''The statement was if torque goes up then power goes up. That is only true if the RPM does not go down. The simple statement ignores the fact that you cannot get more torque from an engine without changing the timing, and that often means you have to time for a lower speed. I know the mathmatics and the equasion proves that the power goes up or down on the same porportion for speed and torque.''
You contradict yourself. If RPm goes down, power goes down as does torque. Then you though in timing concerns to make yourself sound intelligent. We are talking about an engine. no changes needed. I'm at least glad you finally admit the science is sound.
Sport Pilot said: '' The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
Ok so in the next paragraph you through the equation out of the window and we're back to alchemy. Power increase results in a torque increase, we agred that previously. Don;t bring mean effective pressure into it because to change that you need to either force more air in via a poump or you need to lengthen the stroke to increase the breathing capacity (more displacement))
Sport Pilot Said:'' However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
I mean really now, are you arguing with yourself? So which is it? does glow fuel have more power or does gasoline? and what does ''detonate'' mean? Do you refer to knock? why does the fuel want to detonate prematurely if too small a prop is used. Over reving has little to do with know unless there excess heat resulting which probably means theres a bigger problem.
But I'm glad you are at least starting to see that Power is proportional to torque and rpm and they rise and fall together, ......even though you then decided that you didn't admit it at all
What the heck, watching you argue in circles is incredibly fun
ORIGINAL: TimBle
Sport Pilot said: ''The statement was if torque goes up then power goes up. That is only true if the RPM does not go down. The simple statement ignores the fact that you cannot get more torque from an engine without changing the timing, and that often means you have to time for a lower speed. I know the mathmatics and the equasion proves that the power goes up or down on the same porportion for speed and torque.''
You contradict yourself. If RPm goes down, power goes down as does torque. Then you though in timing concerns to make yourself sound intelligent. We are talking about an engine. no changes needed. I'm at least glad you finally admit the science is sound.
Sport Pilot said: '' The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
Ok so in the next paragraph you through the equation out of the window and we're back to alchemy. Power increase results in a torque increase, we agred that previously. Don;t bring mean effective pressure into it because to change that you need to either force more air in via a poump or you need to lengthen the stroke to increase the breathing capacity (more displacement))
Sport Pilot Said:'' However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
I mean really now, are you arguing with yourself? So which is it? does glow fuel have more power or does gasoline? and what does ''detonate'' mean? Do you refer to knock? why does the fuel want to detonate prematurely if too small a prop is used. Over reving has little to do with know unless there excess heat resulting which probably means theres a bigger problem.
But I'm glad you are at least starting to see that Power is proportional to torque and rpm and they rise and fall together, ......even though you then decided that you didn't admit it at all
What the heck, watching you argue in circles is incredibly fun
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
The statement was if torque goes up then power goes up. That is only true if the RPM does not go down. The simple statement ignores the fact that you cannot get more torque from an engine without changing the timing, and that often means you have to time for a lower speed. I know the mathmatics and the equasion proves that the power goes up or down on the same porportion for speed and torque.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque.
This is why I do not like to see the simple statements that hide other factors.
ORIGINAL: TimBle
You love to argue don;t you.
P= 2 x pi x N x T
P, N and T are proportional to each other, When one rises, so do the others. When one falls, so do the others. This relationship is true across the whole rev range. The degree of proportionality can vary due to efficiency at different rpm but the guiding matehmaticl principal and the physics of it is pretty clear.
It is a very true and real statement.
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
You never mentioned any mathematics either unless it was some very early message and I was not responding to you. I used the fast reply by error, I thought i was responding to http://<b><font color=''#00265e'' si....5r</font></b> . His analogy was that torque gets you moving and horsepower keeps you moving. Not quite true but certainly truer than the statement that more torque means more horsepower. The latter is only true if the engine is turning at the same speed or at a speed not significantly slower. a 10% increase in RPM increase horsepower 10% which is the same amount a 10% increase of torque increases horsepower.
ORIGINAL: TimBle
I know I didn't. I just left the quotes out. You used the word.
What is stated is a mathematical principal and a fact.
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
What are you talking about? You gave no analogy.
ORIGINAL: TimBle
My analogy is completely true.
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
Only if they get that torque at or near the same speed. Torque is a force, if it is used to turn a crank that does not move then there is no power. When the crank moves then work is being done. Power is the rate that work is being done. Your analogy is somewhat true, torque is the force pushing the car, but to push it faster means more speed thus more power is created as a result.
Intresting fact. AA fuel dragster engines are too powerful and too unpredictable to test run on a dyno. Thier power is measured from the data of an actual run by measuring the speed and acceleration of the run.
If it has more torque, it has more horsepower
Intresting fact. AA fuel dragster engines are too powerful and too unpredictable to test run on a dyno. Thier power is measured from the data of an actual run by measuring the speed and acceleration of the run.
My analogy is completely true.
What are you talking about? You gave no analogy.
I know I didn't. I just left the quotes out. You used the word.
What is stated is a mathematical principal and a fact.
P= 2 x pi x N x T
P, N and T are proportional to each other, When one rises, so do the others. When one falls, so do the others. This relationship is true across the whole rev range. The degree of proportionality can vary due to efficiency at different rpm but the guiding matehmaticl principal and the physics of it is pretty clear.
It is a very true and real statement.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque.
This is why I do not like to see the simple statements that hide other factors.
Sport Pilot said: ''The statement was if torque goes up then power goes up. That is only true if the RPM does not go down. The simple statement ignores the fact that you cannot get more torque from an engine without changing the timing, and that often means you have to time for a lower speed. I know the mathmatics and the equasion proves that the power goes up or down on the same porportion for speed and torque.''
You contradict yourself. If RPm goes down, power goes down as does torque. Then you though in timing concerns to make yourself sound intelligent. We are talking about an engine. no changes needed. I'm at least glad you finally admit the science is sound.
Sport Pilot said: '' The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
Ok so in the next paragraph you through the equation out of the window and we're back to alchemy. Power increase results in a torque increase, we agred that previously. Don;t bring mean effective pressure into it because to change that you need to either force more air in via a poump or you need to lengthen the stroke to increase the breathing capacity (more displacement))
Sport Pilot Said:'' However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
I mean really now, are you arguing with yourself? So which is it? does glow fuel have more power or does gasoline? and what does ''detonate'' mean? Do you refer to knock? why does the fuel want to detonate prematurely if too small a prop is used. Over reving has little to do with know unless there excess heat resulting which probably means theres a bigger problem.
But I'm glad you are at least starting to see that Power is proportional to torque and rpm and they rise and fall together, ......even though you then decided that you didn't admit it at all
What the heck, watching you argue in circles is incredibly fun
ORIGINAL: TimBle
Sport Pilot said: ''The statement was if torque goes up then power goes up. That is only true if the RPM does not go down. The simple statement ignores the fact that you cannot get more torque from an engine without changing the timing, and that often means you have to time for a lower speed. I know the mathmatics and the equasion proves that the power goes up or down on the same porportion for speed and torque.''
You contradict yourself. If RPm goes down, power goes down as does torque. Then you though in timing concerns to make yourself sound intelligent. We are talking about an engine. no changes needed. I'm at least glad you finally admit the science is sound.
Sport Pilot said: '' The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
Ok so in the next paragraph you through the equation out of the window and we're back to alchemy. Power increase results in a torque increase, we agred that previously. Don;t bring mean effective pressure into it because to change that you need to either force more air in via a poump or you need to lengthen the stroke to increase the breathing capacity (more displacement))
Sport Pilot Said:'' However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
I mean really now, are you arguing with yourself? So which is it? does glow fuel have more power or does gasoline? and what does ''detonate'' mean? Do you refer to knock? why does the fuel want to detonate prematurely if too small a prop is used. Over reving has little to do with know unless there excess heat resulting which probably means theres a bigger problem.
But I'm glad you are at least starting to see that Power is proportional to torque and rpm and they rise and fall together, ......even though you then decided that you didn't admit it at all
What the heck, watching you argue in circles is incredibly fun
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
The statement was if torque goes up then power goes up. That is only true if the RPM does not go down. The simple statement ignores the fact that you cannot get more torque from an engine without changing the timing, and that often means you have to time for a lower speed. I know the mathmatics and the equasion proves that the power goes up or down on the same porportion for speed and torque.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque.
This is why I do not like to see the simple statements that hide other factors.
ORIGINAL: TimBle
You love to argue don;t you.
P= 2 x pi x N x T
P, N and T are proportional to each other, When one rises, so do the others. When one falls, so do the others. This relationship is true across the whole rev range. The degree of proportionality can vary due to efficiency at different rpm but the guiding matehmaticl principal and the physics of it is pretty clear.
It is a very true and real statement.
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
You never mentioned any mathematics either unless it was some very early message and I was not responding to you. I used the fast reply by error, I thought i was responding to http://<b><font color=''#00265e'' si....5r</font></b> . His analogy was that torque gets you moving and horsepower keeps you moving. Not quite true but certainly truer than the statement that more torque means more horsepower. The latter is only true if the engine is turning at the same speed or at a speed not significantly slower. a 10% increase in RPM increase horsepower 10% which is the same amount a 10% increase of torque increases horsepower.
ORIGINAL: TimBle
I know I didn't. I just left the quotes out. You used the word.
What is stated is a mathematical principal and a fact.
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
What are you talking about? You gave no analogy.
ORIGINAL: TimBle
My analogy is completely true.
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
Only if they get that torque at or near the same speed. Torque is a force, if it is used to turn a crank that does not move then there is no power. When the crank moves then work is being done. Power is the rate that work is being done. Your analogy is somewhat true, torque is the force pushing the car, but to push it faster means more speed thus more power is created as a result.
Intresting fact. AA fuel dragster engines are too powerful and too unpredictable to test run on a dyno. Thier power is measured from the data of an actual run by measuring the speed and acceleration of the run.
If it has more torque, it has more horsepower
Intresting fact. AA fuel dragster engines are too powerful and too unpredictable to test run on a dyno. Thier power is measured from the data of an actual run by measuring the speed and acceleration of the run.
My analogy is completely true.
What are you talking about? You gave no analogy.
I know I didn't. I just left the quotes out. You used the word.
What is stated is a mathematical principal and a fact.
P= 2 x pi x N x T
P, N and T are proportional to each other, When one rises, so do the others. When one falls, so do the others. This relationship is true across the whole rev range. The degree of proportionality can vary due to efficiency at different rpm but the guiding matehmaticl principal and the physics of it is pretty clear.
It is a very true and real statement.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque.
This is why I do not like to see the simple statements that hide other factors.
Sport Pilot said: ''The statement was if torque goes up then power goes up. That is only true if the RPM does not go down. The simple statement ignores the fact that you cannot get more torque from an engine without changing the timing, and that often means you have to time for a lower speed. I know the mathmatics and the equasion proves that the power goes up or down on the same porportion for speed and torque.''
You contradict yourself. If RPm goes down, power goes down as does torque. Then you though in timing concerns to make yourself sound intelligent. We are talking about an engine. no changes needed. I'm at least glad you finally admit the science is sound.
Sport Pilot said: '' The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
Ok so in the next paragraph you through the equation out of the window and we're back to alchemy. Power increase results in a torque increase, we agred that previously. Don;t bring mean effective pressure into it because to change that you need to either force more air in via a poump or you need to lengthen the stroke to increase the breathing capacity (more displacement))
Sport Pilot Said:'' However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
I mean really now, are you arguing with yourself? So which is it? does glow fuel have more power or does gasoline? and what does ''detonate'' mean? Do you refer to knock? why does the fuel want to detonate prematurely if too small a prop is used. Over reving has little to do with know unless there excess heat resulting which probably means theres a bigger problem.
But I'm glad you are at least starting to see that Power is proportional to torque and rpm and they rise and fall together, ......even though you then decided that you didn't admit it at all
What the heck, watching you argue in circles is incredibly fun
ORIGINAL: TimBle
Sport Pilot said: ''The statement was if torque goes up then power goes up. That is only true if the RPM does not go down. The simple statement ignores the fact that you cannot get more torque from an engine without changing the timing, and that often means you have to time for a lower speed. I know the mathmatics and the equasion proves that the power goes up or down on the same porportion for speed and torque.''
You contradict yourself. If RPm goes down, power goes down as does torque. Then you though in timing concerns to make yourself sound intelligent. We are talking about an engine. no changes needed. I'm at least glad you finally admit the science is sound.
Sport Pilot said: '' The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
Ok so in the next paragraph you through the equation out of the window and we're back to alchemy. Power increase results in a torque increase, we agred that previously. Don;t bring mean effective pressure into it because to change that you need to either force more air in via a poump or you need to lengthen the stroke to increase the breathing capacity (more displacement))
Sport Pilot Said:'' However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
I mean really now, are you arguing with yourself? So which is it? does glow fuel have more power or does gasoline? and what does ''detonate'' mean? Do you refer to knock? why does the fuel want to detonate prematurely if too small a prop is used. Over reving has little to do with know unless there excess heat resulting which probably means theres a bigger problem.
But I'm glad you are at least starting to see that Power is proportional to torque and rpm and they rise and fall together, ......even though you then decided that you didn't admit it at all
What the heck, watching you argue in circles is incredibly fun
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
The statement was if torque goes up then power goes up. That is only true if the RPM does not go down. The simple statement ignores the fact that you cannot get more torque from an engine without changing the timing, and that often means you have to time for a lower speed. I know the mathmatics and the equasion proves that the power goes up or down on the same porportion for speed and torque.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque.
This is why I do not like to see the simple statements that hide other factors.
ORIGINAL: TimBle
You love to argue don;t you.
P= 2 x pi x N x T
P, N and T are proportional to each other, When one rises, so do the others. When one falls, so do the others. This relationship is true across the whole rev range. The degree of proportionality can vary due to efficiency at different rpm but the guiding matehmaticl principal and the physics of it is pretty clear.
It is a very true and real statement.
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
You never mentioned any mathematics either unless it was some very early message and I was not responding to you. I used the fast reply by error, I thought i was responding to http://<b><font color=''#00265e'' si....5r</font></b> . His analogy was that torque gets you moving and horsepower keeps you moving. Not quite true but certainly truer than the statement that more torque means more horsepower. The latter is only true if the engine is turning at the same speed or at a speed not significantly slower. a 10% increase in RPM increase horsepower 10% which is the same amount a 10% increase of torque increases horsepower.
ORIGINAL: TimBle
I know I didn't. I just left the quotes out. You used the word.
What is stated is a mathematical principal and a fact.
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
What are you talking about? You gave no analogy.
ORIGINAL: TimBle
My analogy is completely true.
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
Only if they get that torque at or near the same speed. Torque is a force, if it is used to turn a crank that does not move then there is no power. When the crank moves then work is being done. Power is the rate that work is being done. Your analogy is somewhat true, torque is the force pushing the car, but to push it faster means more speed thus more power is created as a result.
Intresting fact. AA fuel dragster engines are too powerful and too unpredictable to test run on a dyno. Thier power is measured from the data of an actual run by measuring the speed and acceleration of the run.
If it has more torque, it has more horsepower
Intresting fact. AA fuel dragster engines are too powerful and too unpredictable to test run on a dyno. Thier power is measured from the data of an actual run by measuring the speed and acceleration of the run.
My analogy is completely true.
What are you talking about? You gave no analogy.
I know I didn't. I just left the quotes out. You used the word.
What is stated is a mathematical principal and a fact.
P= 2 x pi x N x T
P, N and T are proportional to each other, When one rises, so do the others. When one falls, so do the others. This relationship is true across the whole rev range. The degree of proportionality can vary due to efficiency at different rpm but the guiding matehmaticl principal and the physics of it is pretty clear.
It is a very true and real statement.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque.
This is why I do not like to see the simple statements that hide other factors.
Sport Pilot said: ''The statement was if torque goes up then power goes up. That is only true if the RPM does not go down. The simple statement ignores the fact that you cannot get more torque from an engine without changing the timing, and that often means you have to time for a lower speed. I know the mathmatics and the equasion proves that the power goes up or down on the same porportion for speed and torque.''
You contradict yourself. If RPm goes down, power goes down as does torque. Then you though in timing concerns to make yourself sound intelligent. We are talking about an engine. no changes needed. I'm at least glad you finally admit the science is sound.
Sport Pilot said: '' The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
Ok so in the next paragraph you through the equation out of the window and we're back to alchemy. Power increase results in a torque increase, we agred that previously. Don;t bring mean effective pressure into it because to change that you need to either force more air in via a poump or you need to lengthen the stroke to increase the breathing capacity (more displacement))
Sport Pilot Said:'' However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
I mean really now, are you arguing with yourself? So which is it? does glow fuel have more power or does gasoline? and what does ''detonate'' mean? Do you refer to knock? why does the fuel want to detonate prematurely if too small a prop is used. Over reving has little to do with know unless there excess heat resulting which probably means theres a bigger problem.
But I'm glad you are at least starting to see that Power is proportional to torque and rpm and they rise and fall together, ......even though you then decided that you didn't admit it at all
What the heck, watching you argue in circles is incredibly fun
ORIGINAL: TimBle
Sport Pilot said: ''The statement was if torque goes up then power goes up. That is only true if the RPM does not go down. The simple statement ignores the fact that you cannot get more torque from an engine without changing the timing, and that often means you have to time for a lower speed. I know the mathmatics and the equasion proves that the power goes up or down on the same porportion for speed and torque.''
You contradict yourself. If RPm goes down, power goes down as does torque. Then you though in timing concerns to make yourself sound intelligent. We are talking about an engine. no changes needed. I'm at least glad you finally admit the science is sound.
Sport Pilot said: '' The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
Ok so in the next paragraph you through the equation out of the window and we're back to alchemy. Power increase results in a torque increase, we agred that previously. Don;t bring mean effective pressure into it because to change that you need to either force more air in via a poump or you need to lengthen the stroke to increase the breathing capacity (more displacement))
Sport Pilot Said:'' However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
I mean really now, are you arguing with yourself? So which is it? does glow fuel have more power or does gasoline? and what does ''detonate'' mean? Do you refer to knock? why does the fuel want to detonate prematurely if too small a prop is used. Over reving has little to do with know unless there excess heat resulting which probably means theres a bigger problem.
But I'm glad you are at least starting to see that Power is proportional to torque and rpm and they rise and fall together, ......even though you then decided that you didn't admit it at all
What the heck, watching you argue in circles is incredibly fun
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
The statement was if torque goes up then power goes up. That is only true if the RPM does not go down. The simple statement ignores the fact that you cannot get more torque from an engine without changing the timing, and that often means you have to time for a lower speed. I know the mathmatics and the equasion proves that the power goes up or down on the same porportion for speed and torque.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque.
This is why I do not like to see the simple statements that hide other factors.
ORIGINAL: TimBle
You love to argue don;t you.
P= 2 x pi x N x T
P, N and T are proportional to each other, When one rises, so do the others. When one falls, so do the others. This relationship is true across the whole rev range. The degree of proportionality can vary due to efficiency at different rpm but the guiding matehmaticl principal and the physics of it is pretty clear.
It is a very true and real statement.
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
You never mentioned any mathematics either unless it was some very early message and I was not responding to you. I used the fast reply by error, I thought i was responding to http://<b><font color=''#00265e'' si....5r</font></b> . His analogy was that torque gets you moving and horsepower keeps you moving. Not quite true but certainly truer than the statement that more torque means more horsepower. The latter is only true if the engine is turning at the same speed or at a speed not significantly slower. a 10% increase in RPM increase horsepower 10% which is the same amount a 10% increase of torque increases horsepower.
ORIGINAL: TimBle
I know I didn't. I just left the quotes out. You used the word.
What is stated is a mathematical principal and a fact.
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
What are you talking about? You gave no analogy.
ORIGINAL: TimBle
My analogy is completely true.
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
Only if they get that torque at or near the same speed. Torque is a force, if it is used to turn a crank that does not move then there is no power. When the crank moves then work is being done. Power is the rate that work is being done. Your analogy is somewhat true, torque is the force pushing the car, but to push it faster means more speed thus more power is created as a result.
Intresting fact. AA fuel dragster engines are too powerful and too unpredictable to test run on a dyno. Thier power is measured from the data of an actual run by measuring the speed and acceleration of the run.
If it has more torque, it has more horsepower
Intresting fact. AA fuel dragster engines are too powerful and too unpredictable to test run on a dyno. Thier power is measured from the data of an actual run by measuring the speed and acceleration of the run.
My analogy is completely true.
What are you talking about? You gave no analogy.
I know I didn't. I just left the quotes out. You used the word.
What is stated is a mathematical principal and a fact.
P= 2 x pi x N x T
P, N and T are proportional to each other, When one rises, so do the others. When one falls, so do the others. This relationship is true across the whole rev range. The degree of proportionality can vary due to efficiency at different rpm but the guiding matehmaticl principal and the physics of it is pretty clear.
It is a very true and real statement.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque.
This is why I do not like to see the simple statements that hide other factors.
Sport Pilot said: ''The statement was if torque goes up then power goes up. That is only true if the RPM does not go down. The simple statement ignores the fact that you cannot get more torque from an engine without changing the timing, and that often means you have to time for a lower speed. I know the mathmatics and the equasion proves that the power goes up or down on the same porportion for speed and torque.''
You contradict yourself. If RPm goes down, power goes down as does torque. Then you though in timing concerns to make yourself sound intelligent. We are talking about an engine. no changes needed. I'm at least glad you finally admit the science is sound.
Sport Pilot said: '' The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
Ok so in the next paragraph you through the equation out of the window and we're back to alchemy. Power increase results in a torque increase, we agred that previously. Don;t bring mean effective pressure into it because to change that you need to either force more air in via a poump or you need to lengthen the stroke to increase the breathing capacity (more displacement))
Sport Pilot Said:'' However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
I mean really now, are you arguing with yourself? So which is it? does glow fuel have more power or does gasoline? and what does ''detonate'' mean? Do you refer to knock? why does the fuel want to detonate prematurely if too small a prop is used. Over reving has little to do with know unless there excess heat resulting which probably means theres a bigger problem.
But I'm glad you are at least starting to see that Power is proportional to torque and rpm and they rise and fall together, ......even though you then decided that you didn't admit it at all
What the heck, watching you argue in circles is incredibly fun
ORIGINAL: TimBle
Sport Pilot said: ''The statement was if torque goes up then power goes up. That is only true if the RPM does not go down. The simple statement ignores the fact that you cannot get more torque from an engine without changing the timing, and that often means you have to time for a lower speed. I know the mathmatics and the equasion proves that the power goes up or down on the same porportion for speed and torque.''
You contradict yourself. If RPm goes down, power goes down as does torque. Then you though in timing concerns to make yourself sound intelligent. We are talking about an engine. no changes needed. I'm at least glad you finally admit the science is sound.
Sport Pilot said: '' The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
Ok so in the next paragraph you through the equation out of the window and we're back to alchemy. Power increase results in a torque increase, we agred that previously. Don;t bring mean effective pressure into it because to change that you need to either force more air in via a poump or you need to lengthen the stroke to increase the breathing capacity (more displacement))
Sport Pilot Said:'' However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
I mean really now, are you arguing with yourself? So which is it? does glow fuel have more power or does gasoline? and what does ''detonate'' mean? Do you refer to knock? why does the fuel want to detonate prematurely if too small a prop is used. Over reving has little to do with know unless there excess heat resulting which probably means theres a bigger problem.
But I'm glad you are at least starting to see that Power is proportional to torque and rpm and they rise and fall together, ......even though you then decided that you didn't admit it at all
What the heck, watching you argue in circles is incredibly fun
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
The statement was if torque goes up then power goes up. That is only true if the RPM does not go down. The simple statement ignores the fact that you cannot get more torque from an engine without changing the timing, and that often means you have to time for a lower speed. I know the mathmatics and the equasion proves that the power goes up or down on the same porportion for speed and torque.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque.
This is why I do not like to see the simple statements that hide other factors.
ORIGINAL: TimBle
You love to argue don;t you.
P= 2 x pi x N x T
P, N and T are proportional to each other, When one rises, so do the others. When one falls, so do the others. This relationship is true across the whole rev range. The degree of proportionality can vary due to efficiency at different rpm but the guiding matehmaticl principal and the physics of it is pretty clear.
It is a very true and real statement.
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
You never mentioned any mathematics either unless it was some very early message and I was not responding to you. I used the fast reply by error, I thought i was responding to http://<b><font color=''#00265e'' si....5r</font></b> . His analogy was that torque gets you moving and horsepower keeps you moving. Not quite true but certainly truer than the statement that more torque means more horsepower. The latter is only true if the engine is turning at the same speed or at a speed not significantly slower. a 10% increase in RPM increase horsepower 10% which is the same amount a 10% increase of torque increases horsepower.
ORIGINAL: TimBle
I know I didn't. I just left the quotes out. You used the word.
What is stated is a mathematical principal and a fact.
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
What are you talking about? You gave no analogy.
ORIGINAL: TimBle
My analogy is completely true.
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
Only if they get that torque at or near the same speed. Torque is a force, if it is used to turn a crank that does not move then there is no power. When the crank moves then work is being done. Power is the rate that work is being done. Your analogy is somewhat true, torque is the force pushing the car, but to push it faster means more speed thus more power is created as a result.
Intresting fact. AA fuel dragster engines are too powerful and too unpredictable to test run on a dyno. Thier power is measured from the data of an actual run by measuring the speed and acceleration of the run.
If it has more torque, it has more horsepower
Intresting fact. AA fuel dragster engines are too powerful and too unpredictable to test run on a dyno. Thier power is measured from the data of an actual run by measuring the speed and acceleration of the run.
My analogy is completely true.
What are you talking about? You gave no analogy.
I know I didn't. I just left the quotes out. You used the word.
What is stated is a mathematical principal and a fact.
P= 2 x pi x N x T
P, N and T are proportional to each other, When one rises, so do the others. When one falls, so do the others. This relationship is true across the whole rev range. The degree of proportionality can vary due to efficiency at different rpm but the guiding matehmaticl principal and the physics of it is pretty clear.
It is a very true and real statement.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque.
This is why I do not like to see the simple statements that hide other factors.
Sport Pilot said: ''The statement was if torque goes up then power goes up. That is only true if the RPM does not go down. The simple statement ignores the fact that you cannot get more torque from an engine without changing the timing, and that often means you have to time for a lower speed. I know the mathmatics and the equasion proves that the power goes up or down on the same porportion for speed and torque.''
You contradict yourself. If RPm goes down, power goes down as does torque. Then you though in timing concerns to make yourself sound intelligent. We are talking about an engine. no changes needed. I'm at least glad you finally admit the science is sound.
Sport Pilot said: '' The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
Ok so in the next paragraph you through the equation out of the window and we're back to alchemy. Power increase results in a torque increase, we agred that previously. Don;t bring mean effective pressure into it because to change that you need to either force more air in via a poump or you need to lengthen the stroke to increase the breathing capacity (more displacement))
Sport Pilot Said:'' However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
I mean really now, are you arguing with yourself? So which is it? does glow fuel have more power or does gasoline? and what does ''detonate'' mean? Do you refer to knock? why does the fuel want to detonate prematurely if too small a prop is used. Over reving has little to do with know unless there excess heat resulting which probably means theres a bigger problem.
But I'm glad you are at least starting to see that Power is proportional to torque and rpm and they rise and fall together, ......even though you then decided that you didn't admit it at all
What the heck, watching you argue in circles is incredibly fun
ORIGINAL: TimBle
Sport Pilot said: ''The statement was if torque goes up then power goes up. That is only true if the RPM does not go down. The simple statement ignores the fact that you cannot get more torque from an engine without changing the timing, and that often means you have to time for a lower speed. I know the mathmatics and the equasion proves that the power goes up or down on the same porportion for speed and torque.''
You contradict yourself. If RPm goes down, power goes down as does torque. Then you though in timing concerns to make yourself sound intelligent. We are talking about an engine. no changes needed. I'm at least glad you finally admit the science is sound.
Sport Pilot said: '' The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
Ok so in the next paragraph you through the equation out of the window and we're back to alchemy. Power increase results in a torque increase, we agred that previously. Don;t bring mean effective pressure into it because to change that you need to either force more air in via a poump or you need to lengthen the stroke to increase the breathing capacity (more displacement))
Sport Pilot Said:'' However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
I mean really now, are you arguing with yourself? So which is it? does glow fuel have more power or does gasoline? and what does ''detonate'' mean? Do you refer to knock? why does the fuel want to detonate prematurely if too small a prop is used. Over reving has little to do with know unless there excess heat resulting which probably means theres a bigger problem.
But I'm glad you are at least starting to see that Power is proportional to torque and rpm and they rise and fall together, ......even though you then decided that you didn't admit it at all
What the heck, watching you argue in circles is incredibly fun
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
The statement was if torque goes up then power goes up. That is only true if the RPM does not go down. The simple statement ignores the fact that you cannot get more torque from an engine without changing the timing, and that often means you have to time for a lower speed. I know the mathmatics and the equasion proves that the power goes up or down on the same porportion for speed and torque.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque.
This is why I do not like to see the simple statements that hide other factors.
ORIGINAL: TimBle
You love to argue don;t you.
P= 2 x pi x N x T
P, N and T are proportional to each other, When one rises, so do the others. When one falls, so do the others. This relationship is true across the whole rev range. The degree of proportionality can vary due to efficiency at different rpm but the guiding matehmaticl principal and the physics of it is pretty clear.
It is a very true and real statement.
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
You never mentioned any mathematics either unless it was some very early message and I was not responding to you. I used the fast reply by error, I thought i was responding to http://<b><font color=''#00265e'' si....5r</font></b> . His analogy was that torque gets you moving and horsepower keeps you moving. Not quite true but certainly truer than the statement that more torque means more horsepower. The latter is only true if the engine is turning at the same speed or at a speed not significantly slower. a 10% increase in RPM increase horsepower 10% which is the same amount a 10% increase of torque increases horsepower.
ORIGINAL: TimBle
I know I didn't. I just left the quotes out. You used the word.
What is stated is a mathematical principal and a fact.
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
What are you talking about? You gave no analogy.
ORIGINAL: TimBle
My analogy is completely true.
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
Only if they get that torque at or near the same speed. Torque is a force, if it is used to turn a crank that does not move then there is no power. When the crank moves then work is being done. Power is the rate that work is being done. Your analogy is somewhat true, torque is the force pushing the car, but to push it faster means more speed thus more power is created as a result.
Intresting fact. AA fuel dragster engines are too powerful and too unpredictable to test run on a dyno. Thier power is measured from the data of an actual run by measuring the speed and acceleration of the run.
If it has more torque, it has more horsepower
Intresting fact. AA fuel dragster engines are too powerful and too unpredictable to test run on a dyno. Thier power is measured from the data of an actual run by measuring the speed and acceleration of the run.
My analogy is completely true.
What are you talking about? You gave no analogy.
I know I didn't. I just left the quotes out. You used the word.
What is stated is a mathematical principal and a fact.
P= 2 x pi x N x T
P, N and T are proportional to each other, When one rises, so do the others. When one falls, so do the others. This relationship is true across the whole rev range. The degree of proportionality can vary due to efficiency at different rpm but the guiding matehmaticl principal and the physics of it is pretty clear.
It is a very true and real statement.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque.
This is why I do not like to see the simple statements that hide other factors.
Sport Pilot said: ''The statement was if torque goes up then power goes up. That is only true if the RPM does not go down. The simple statement ignores the fact that you cannot get more torque from an engine without changing the timing, and that often means you have to time for a lower speed. I know the mathmatics and the equasion proves that the power goes up or down on the same porportion for speed and torque.''
You contradict yourself. If RPm goes down, power goes down as does torque. Then you though in timing concerns to make yourself sound intelligent. We are talking about an engine. no changes needed. I'm at least glad you finally admit the science is sound.
Sport Pilot said: '' The effect is that increasing torque requires decreasing speed, and increasing speed decreces torque. This is not based on the equasion, but on the breathing ability of the engine. Higher speed means it cannot breath as well so you get less air and fuel in the cylinder so less pressure on the crank which means less torque, lower speed does the opposite so there is more torque and less speed.
Ok so in the next paragraph you through the equation out of the window and we're back to alchemy. Power increase results in a torque increase, we agred that previously. Don;t bring mean effective pressure into it because to change that you need to either force more air in via a poump or you need to lengthen the stroke to increase the breathing capacity (more displacement))
Sport Pilot Said:'' However a glow engine has a more powerfull fuel. So everything being equal (which they are not between these engines) the same size glow engine should have more power than the same size gas engines. Most glow engines are simply designed for RPM so simply converting them to gas means they will slow down and are no longer running at their optimal timing. Gas engines have the opposite problem, the fuel has more power when converted so a bigger prop must be used to run at its optimal speed, sometimes so much so the fuel wants to detonate.
I mean really now, are you arguing with yourself? So which is it? does glow fuel have more power or does gasoline? and what does ''detonate'' mean? Do you refer to knock? why does the fuel want to detonate prematurely if too small a prop is used. Over reving has little to do with know unless there excess heat resulting which probably means theres a bigger problem.
But I'm glad you are at least starting to see that Power is proportional to torque and rpm and they rise and fall together, ......even though you then decided that you didn't admit it at all
What the heck, watching you argue in circles is incredibly fun
[quote]ORIGINAL: TimBle
[quote]ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
[quote]ORIGINAL: TimBle
[quote]ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
[quote]ORIGINAL: TimBle
[quote]ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
[quote]ORIGINAL: TimBle
[quote]ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
If it has more torque, it has more horsepower
Intresting fact. AA fuel dragster engines are too powerful and too unpredictable to test run on a dyno. Thier power is measured from the data of an actual run by measuring
04-29-2012, 08:50 AM
#55
RE: DLE 20 vs OS 120 AX
Ealier I posted a logn post that would have looked a little bit less than MetalicJunkies post. So I will keep it short. IMO MJ's post should be deleted as it takes up server space with no added information.
Why are you upset? I did not have a problem with your statement that if torque goes up then the power probably will go up. It was another statement by someone else that said it will go up regardless, that I had an issue with. Also you missunderstood much of my post. I never contradicted that glow fuel is more powerful than gas. I said that a converted gas engine has issue with glow fuel because the speed increases putting it at an RPM that is not ideal to its port timing. Thus a larger propeller is needed to get the most out of it, but that could lead to detonation if a colder glow plug or lower nitro fuel is not used. Knock is a laymans term that could be used for both detonation and preignition. Detonation is whenat least some of the fuel air mixture ignites at once, if bad enough it causes a knock, but so can pre ignition.
Why are you upset? I did not have a problem with your statement that if torque goes up then the power probably will go up. It was another statement by someone else that said it will go up regardless, that I had an issue with. Also you missunderstood much of my post. I never contradicted that glow fuel is more powerful than gas. I said that a converted gas engine has issue with glow fuel because the speed increases putting it at an RPM that is not ideal to its port timing. Thus a larger propeller is needed to get the most out of it, but that could lead to detonation if a colder glow plug or lower nitro fuel is not used. Knock is a laymans term that could be used for both detonation and preignition. Detonation is whenat least some of the fuel air mixture ignites at once, if bad enough it causes a knock, but so can pre ignition.
04-29-2012, 09:34 AM
#56
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RE: DLE 20 vs OS 120 AX
O.K......O.K........BUT What IF...............I run my DLE-20 on gas & 20% Nitro.............Which one would be more POWERFULL Then........Eh?
04-29-2012, 11:16 AM
#57
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RE: DLE 20 vs OS 120 AX
the engine that registers the highest mean effective pressure. your first problem is to get nitro and gasoline to mix.
anyways nitro burns slower than gasoline so its not great for producing rpm but its a great combustion improver in alcohol fuels.
Depending on the aromatics content of the fuel in your area, it may or may not mix well with the gasoline
but yes, you were just being light hearted 
04-29-2012, 02:38 PM
#59
RE: DLE 20 vs OS 120 AX
Get in touch with a URSA Giant scale pylon racer. Most all use Glowplugs and a good mix. That combination gives very good power....thats what the National Champs use. Ralph ( Antique) could explain better than I can. I have seen him at the Nats before....he knows what makes engines go. Capt,n
04-29-2012, 10:47 PM
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RE: DLE 20 vs OS 120 AX
ORIGINAL: SkyPilot101
E-85 & 20% Nitro, perhaps?
E-85 & 20% Nitro, perhaps?
04-30-2012, 04:39 AM
#61
RE: DLE 20 vs OS 120 AX
anyways nitro burns slower than gasoline so its not great for producing rpm but its a great combustion improver in alcohol fuels.
04-30-2012, 04:47 AM
#62
RE: DLE 20 vs OS 120 AX
ORIGINAL: TimBle
the engine that registers the highest mean effective pressure. your first problem is to get nitro and gasoline to mix.
the engine that registers the highest mean effective pressure. your first problem is to get nitro and gasoline to mix.
anyways nitro burns slower than gasoline so its not great for producing rpm but its a great combustion improver in alcohol fuels.
Depending on the aromatics content of the fuel in your area, it may or may not mix well with the gasoline
but yes, you were just being light hearted
I don't know about the diaphrams in the gas engines. One material will hold up to methanol and nitro, but not gas, the other to gas but not methanol, and it would probably fare a lot worse with nitro.
