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  1. #26
    pilotpete2's Avatar
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    RE: Today's gas no problem... NO way...


    ORIGINAL: TimBle

    or try the following, as it may nvere have been done before.


    leave the E10 gasoline alone. mix in your E10 com[patible 2 stroke oil and go fly
    What? And take all the fun outa things
    I know zip about fuels and chemistry, I use fresh 10% from a Canadian refinery, mix with Shihl Ultra that I can buy 2 miles from the field, and have fun flying. What! Me worry?[8D]
    Pete
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  2. #27
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    RE: Today's gas no problem... NO way...

    Best idea yet! Where's T.O.M when you need somereal gas on the fire. I have used the alcohol blend for years in all my small engines and have no issue what ever, 87 octane from the local mini mart.I leave the fuel in over the winter in my cold shed and I can't remember when I changed a plug last or played with the needles. Gas and go. Just put new fuel line on my 25 yr old weed wacker for the first time last year. It's here to stay so we might as well get use to it. Sorry for all your problems though.
    ORIGINAL: TimBle

    or try the following, as it may nvere have been done before.


    leave the E10 gasoline alone. mix in your E10 com[patible 2 stroke oil and go fly
    If what you believed to be true was false would you want to know the truth?

    "You shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free".

  3. #28

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    RE: Today's gas no problem... NO way...

    Has anyone tried, or is willing to try, some of this?:

    http://trufuel50.com/Default.aspx

    There's one comment in the testimonials section of it being used in his "RC gas planes". The cost is prohibitive, at around $6 a quart, but I'm wondering if this could be a alternative to pump gas and oil mix?

    Jesse
    \"Greater cruising speeds are possible, but the size of the earth does not warrant greater speeds.\" - Igor Sikorsky in 1934

  4. #29

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    RE: Today's gas no problem... NO way...

    Yes, it is premixed high octane fuel. It has a good shelf life, but once opened , use it. No Ethanol, no additives you find at the pump, just gas, and oil if you get the premixed.

    When you add it up though, glow would be less expensive to use than this stuff.

    Personally, pump gas 91,2,3 octane works just fine for my engines.

    I think someone had a brain storm and came up with the idea to put premixed gas in a can that is not pump formula for all those people who don't like Ethanol in their small engines.  I personally had issues with the fuel lines disintegrating on a weed wacker I have. I left the fuel in it over the winter and when I went to use it, what was left in the tank poured out and investigating the leak discovered the missing fuel lines, so I can see why people would buy this stuff.
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  5. #30
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    RE: Today's gas no problem... NO way...

    I have been using this stuff SEF fuel to good advantage, http://www.seffuels.com/
    I think it is the same stuff as the True Fuel stuff too.
    Except SEF is made by VP Racing which owns Powermaster Fuels. So a hobby shop can order it along with their glow fuel orders and save on shipping too.  Unfortunately it costs more so it isn't cheap like pump gasoline though. But it works.

    Anyway it doesn't make me nauseous when I smell the fumes. it doesn't stink like our pump gasoline does. The smell also doesn't linger on my hands or clothing either. I don't have to roll the windows down to drive to and from the flying field either. I can bring a engine or plane inside and the family doesn't go crazy one me because of the smell and stink that pump gasoline has.

    There are other noxious additives the gasoline companies are adding to the gasoline besides just ethanol. Whatever it is it plays havoc with our small engines.

    I read where someone had good success not letting the carb run dry, which may be the problem. If you kill the engine and plug off the fuel lines leaving the gasoline in there, the rubber seals and diaphragms tend to last much longer. So maybe that is the trick. I do know my weedeater's carb is filled with the crappy pump gasoline and oil and it seems to hang in there after several years now.  But maybe our RC gas engines aren't using the same rubber parts that are in our weedeaters or chain saws.

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  6. #31

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    RE: Today's gas no problem... NO way...

    what are the symptoms the engines exhibit due to there "noxious additives"?

  7. #32

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    RE: Today's gas no problem... NO way...

    They don't cause running problems, just storage problems.  Then again, any gas that is stored over time will cause problems, no matter how pure it is. The Gasoline will evaporate, and leave behind the additives, and then those evaporate and leave behind the varnish.  So depending on the additives in the canned Gas product, it may or may not evaporate faster than pump gas, so storage in a plane is unknown.

    Pure gas will boil at 100* F, additives keep it's boiling point higher, so it stays liquid at higher temps, so it will store longer. Ethanol boils at 173* F, so it is less likely to evaporate, so the longer gas is stored, the higher the concentration of Ethanol to gas occurs, and that is where the breakdown of the components can occur. Some components can't survive in pure Ethanol, but can take small concentrations of it without ill effects. 

     The fuel line that was in my John Deere weed wacker turned to mush and basically disintegrated when I had stored it with a half tank of mixed fuel. The lines were clear tubing, so no idea what they were made of, but the gas was an ethanol blend, and the device was purchased after ethanol was already in our gas, so it SHOULD have come with fuel lines that can handle it, but apparently did not.  The carb though had no ill effects, just the lines. 

    I'll bet with the proper fuel components and tuning these little motors would run just fine on E85. They wouldn't fly as long, or have as much power as they do on 91 Octane, but they would still work OK. 

    The problems I have with Ethanol in the gas has nothing to do with the fact it is in there, but more in the fact that ethanol is heavily subsidized and the use of it has raised food prices up to artificial levels.  If the subsides were removed, it would be too expensive to farm, harvest and produce it here, and would be more economical to have it shipped from south america where they produce it from sugar cane far cheaper than we ever could. The problem with that is, the government has put a ban on imports from that country.  The green movements that initiated all these programs has so far had FAIL boat written all over them that it really is hurting the overall progress of truly finding an viable alternate energy source.  It would be great to have a truly cheap form of energy to fly our planes with, especially with the cost of glow fuels being so high, but so far, ethanol is not it, at least not with the current method used to produce it, 
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  8. #33
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    RE: Today's gas no problem... NO way...

    Some of the noxious additives in pump gasoline are as shown here. The blends change with the seasons too. These substances tend to evaporate at different rates thus leading to a short shelf life for the fuel. Even if it is in a decent sealed container too. But in the engine carb it tends to evaporate and leave behind a varnish like sludge that gums up the carb.
    Contains Benzene, CAS # 71-43-2. Contains Toluene, CAS #
    108-88-3. Contains Ethylbenzene, CAS # 100-41-4. Contains
    n-Hexane, CAS # 110-54-3. Contains Xylene (Mixed Isomers),
    CAS # 1330-20-7. Contains Naphthalene, CAS # 91-20-3.
    Contains Cyclo-hexane, CAS# 110-82-7.
    Contains Tri-methyl-benzene (all isomers), CAS# 25551-13-7.
    Dyes and marker

    someone else uses this
    Gasoline 86290-81-5 100 %volume
    Benzene 71-43-2 0.1 - 4.9 %volume
    Ethyl benzene 100-41-4 0.1 - 3 %volume
    Naphthalene 91-20-3 0.1 - 2 %volume
    Ethanol 64-17-5 0 - 10 %volume
    Methyl tert-butyl ether (MTBE) 1634-04-4 0 - 15 %volume
    Tertiary amyl methyl ether (TAME) 994-05-8 0 - 17 %volume
    Ethyl tert-butyl ether (ETBE) 637-92-3 0 - 18 %volume

    Sometimes they throw in some butane or propane too.


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  9. #34

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    RE: Today's gas no problem... NO way...


    ORIGINAL: earlwb

    Some of the noxious additives in pump gasoline are as shown here. The blends change with the seasons too. These substances tend to evaporate at different rates thus leading to a short shelf life for the fuel. Even if it is in a decent sealed container too. But in the engine carb it tends to evaporate and leave behind a varnish like sludge that gums up the carb.
    Contains Benzene, CAS # 71-43-2. Contains Toluene, CAS #
    108-88-3. Contains Ethylbenzene, CAS # 100-41-4. Contains
    n-Hexane, CAS # 110-54-3. Contains Xylene (Mixed Isomers),
    CAS # 1330-20-7. Contains Naphthalene, CAS # 91-20-3.
    Contains Cyclo-hexane, CAS# 110-82-7.
    Contains Tri-methyl-benzene (all isomers), CAS# 25551-13-7.
    Dyes and marker

    someone else uses this
    Gasoline 86290-81-5 100 %volume
    Benzene 71-43-2 0.1 - 4.9 %volume
    Ethyl benzene 100-41-4 0.1 - 3 %volume
    Naphthalene 91-20-3 0.1 - 2 %volume
    Ethanol 64-17-5 0 - 10 %volume
    Methyl tert-butyl ether (MTBE) 1634-04-4 0 - 15 %volume
    Tertiary amyl methyl ether (TAME) 994-05-8 0 - 17 %volume
    Ethyl tert-butyl ether (ETBE) 637-92-3 0 - 18 %volume

    Sometimes they throw in some butane or propane too.


    I don't call these additives but prefer to call them components ..... and most of these have been around and in common use for decades now. The list is even longer if you research it more. My bet is that Timble could really educate us all if he chose to!

    But why does this all matter anyway? Most of us use pump gas with Zero problems. For those who have problems there are usually reasonable and fairly simple solutions.

  10. #35

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    RE: Today's gas no problem... NO way...

    The smell man, THE SMELL! [X(]
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  11. #36
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    RE: Today's gas no problem... NO way...

    TruckRacer. It depends on if the smell bothers you or not. Also whether the pump gas causes your RC engine carbs to need to be rebuilt often as the rubber parts go bad or not.

    If you don't have a problem with it then you are a lucky guy and go for it, have fun.

    Actually they weren;t in use for decades. But over the years the gasoline formulas changes. Years ago the gasoline odors or smells didn't bother me, nowadays it bothers me a lot. I think it started happening when they switched to unleaded fuels from leaded fuels and the old "white gas" some people used back then. it seemed to have gotten worse after the swtich to adding ethanol in the gasoline too.


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  12. #37

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    RE: Today's gas no problem... NO way...

    Yup, pump gas stinks! There is no question about that.

    When I was racing, I got sort of addicted to the smell of racing fuel .... either as a liquid or the smell of the exhaust. It gets in your blood like some kind of drug and you're just drawn to it. I can't explain it but know quite a few with the same addiction.

  13. #38
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    RE: Today's gas no problem... NO way...

    Yeah I love the smell of nitromethane, methanol and castor oil in the morning at the drag strip.

    That is probably why I still like glow engines so much, it reminds me of the good old days at the drag strip when I was young and fearless

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  14. #39

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    RE: Today's gas no problem... NO way...


    ORIGINAL: earlwb

    TruckRacer.* It depends on if the smell bothers you or not. Also whether the pump gas causes your RC engine carbs to need to be rebuilt often as the rubber parts go bad or not.

    If you don't have a problem with it then you are a lucky guy and go for it, have fun.

    Actually they weren;t in use for decades. But over the years the gasoline formulas changes. Years ago the gasoline odors or smells didn't bother me, nowadays it bothers me a lot. I think it started happening when they switched to unleaded fuels from leaded fuels and the old ''white gas'' some people used back then. it seemed to have gotten worse after the swtich to adding ethanol in the gasoline too.


    Yes, the fuels and their associated problems vary around the country as pointed out in post #6 of this thread.

    I can't say the odor of gasoline has changed all that much in my area of the country. I have a bit of experience with that as I use to haul the stuff in a previous life as a tank truck driver back in the early 70s. I took a bath in gasoline a couple of times when hoses or couplers failed and remember the odor quite well and have never cared for it much. [:'(] Better than diesel fuel though! If anything modern gas blends have a sweeter smell with the added ethanol. During that same period, a very good friend of mine was a Phillips Petroleum exec and he educated me in the many compounds / components that were blended into making gasoline at that time .... almost 40 years ago. So, complex gasoline formulas are nothing new. I would suggest they try to get rid of more highly volatile crap in the winter formulas these days and I have always told people to never try to store winter formula gas over the hot summer months. Oh well, its a very complex subject that we have little or no control over.

  15. #40

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    RE: Today's gas no problem... NO way...


    ORIGINAL: earlwb

    Some of the noxious additives in pump gasoline are as shown here. The blends change with the seasons too. These substances tend to evaporate at different rates thus leading to a short shelf life for the fuel. Even if it is in a decent sealed container too. But in the engine carb it tends to evaporate and leave behind a varnish like sludge that gums up the carb.
    Contains Benzene, CAS # 71-43-2. Contains Toluene, CAS #
    108-88-3. Contains Ethylbenzene, CAS # 100-41-4. Contains
    n-Hexane, CAS # 110-54-3. Contains Xylene (Mixed Isomers),
    CAS # 1330-20-7. Contains Naphthalene, CAS # 91-20-3.
    Contains Cyclo-hexane, CAS# 110-82-7.
    Contains Tri-methyl-benzene (all isomers), CAS# 25551-13-7.
    Dyes and marker

    someone else uses this
    Gasoline 86290-81-5 100 %volume
    Benzene 71-43-2 0.1 - 4.9 %volume
    Ethyl benzene 100-41-4 0.1 - 3 %volume
    Naphthalene 91-20-3 0.1 - 2 %volume
    Ethanol 64-17-5 0 - 10 %volume
    Methyl tert-butyl ether (MTBE) 1634-04-4 0 - 15 %volume
    Tertiary amyl methyl ether (TAME) 994-05-8 0 - 17 %volume
    Ethyl tert-butyl ether (ETBE) 637-92-3 0 - 18 %volume

    Sometimes they throw in some butane or propane too.


    save for the last few ethers the rest are not "additives" but rather blending components and in some cases constituents of what is collectlively known as naphtha. Depending on where its cut they could part of either light or heavy naptha.

    Butane and propane are added depending on the spread of other hydrocarbons and the volatility needed for the market and season. In winter, more butane or propane is needed to ensure the cars engine can start. Using a heavy, non volatile fuel will leave most vehicles standing by the saide of the road.

    In terms of volatility, and the nature of how carburetors work, its seldom a good idea to leave fuel in a 2 stroke for very long periods so I'm not sure where the actual problem lies other than user behaviour. Direct injection and multi point injection engines work off very high pressure pumps so the volatility is not as big an issue for those engines as it is for a carburetored engine.

    Cutting a long stroy short, truckracer nailed it in his closing line. gasoline blending is a complex issue that the end user has little control over because they don't participate in the forums that drives specifications or addresses marker related problems. What is certain is that the fuel you buy at a reputable service station under the banner of a recognised brands will conform to your local specifications and that is in itself a stamp of quality.
    Wishing Ethanol away is not going to happen and eventually its going to be in the avgas too as Brasil is showing the world what can be achieved with E25 and E85. For now its a flavour that has to be lived with


  16. #41
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    RE: Today's gas no problem... NO way...

    .
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  17. #42
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    RE: Today's gas no problem... NO way...

    I have watched guys come out and fly their gasoline engine powered planes one weekend OK, sometimes a few weekends OK, Then suddenly the engine won't run right anymore or even start sometimes. Later after much aggravation and frustration they figure out the carb isn't working. If they are lucky they have a carb they can get rebuild parts for. They rebuild the carb and repeat the same scenario and it fails again on them. Of course other guys do a winter layover and find their engine won't run next spring too.
    So there is something in the pump gasoline that is different. and causes the rubber parts to go bad in a short time, it isn't filters or dirt either.
    But it may be locale specific to what is in the gasoline in certain locales versus others.

    I would suggest if you buy a gas engine to go ahead and buy a couple of carb rebuild kits for the engine too, if you are going to use pump gasoline.
    If a particular gas engine has no parts for the carb it may be wise to skip that one instead of buying it.
    Then if you don't have problems great, but you are still prepared.


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  18. #43

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    RE: Today's gas no problem... NO way...

    I don't believe anybody on this thread has tried to force anyone into anything. I do believe there have been some trying to at least spread some legitimate information about the modern fuels we have to deal with. The fuels we have today evolved to what they are over a very long time. Along the way, the custom blends were forced on us by the various regulators and agencies at both the state and federal level. We either use the stuff or use something else. Some have chosen AvGas, racing fuel or something else and I say great if it is working for them.

    Now when I hear terms like "pure gasoline" or "additives" I cringe a bit. Just exactly when did pure gasoline ever exist? How about those additives ..... just exactly what are they and why are they in there? I prefer a little meat on the bones when I'm reading about a subject. When I'm just reading the same old line handed down for who knows how many times .... it gets a bit stale and frankly full of holes and false facts.

    Nobody's "Yes" man here but I do enjoy a post with some legitimate info in it! As far as Tim goes, I find his posts informative and interesting.

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    RE: Today's gas no problem... NO way...

    Jezmo, or Jizmo, or whatever your handle is, if you don't have anything positive to contribute to this thread, then stay the hell out! As they say, dumb is as dumb does...

    Jesse
    \"Greater cruising speeds are possible, but the size of the earth does not warrant greater speeds.\" - Igor Sikorsky in 1934

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    RE: Today's gas no problem... NO way...



    It isnot just thegas that is the problem....it is thepoorquality of severalrubbermade products that is also abig problem. I have some 30 year old engines and a Motorcycle and the rubber partsare in fine shape. Some products you buy now, the rubber cracks in a couple of years with no gas ever touching them. I would say the people that design and build some products so that you need to replace small rubber items so they can make more $$ off you. Sell items cheap to you and then they make big money on repair later. Its called a rip-off ! Capt,n

    You as a consumer...need to complain about that moe often !

    I never met a engine I did not like !

  21. #46
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    RE: Today's gas no problem... NO way...

    LOL, that's why I fly glow, it's expensive and messy but trustworthy.[X(]
    Keep your wings level
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    RE: Today's gas no problem... NO way...

    I've solved the problem by simply getting premium non-ethanol gas. There is only ONE place in town that sells it. Sure, It's 50 cents a gallon more but @ $4.50 a gallon, it's still a helleva lot cheaper than 30% nitro glow @ $30.00 a gallon.
    You can find a station near you @:
    http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp

    Many marinas sell non-ethanol gas since the stuff kills boat motors. I put the gas in my truck and I get 3-4 gallons more per mile too. Sure, It costs me $10.00 more a fill up but it'll save me in the long run since I won't be having to change fuel lines, hoses, fuel injectors, etc later on. My truck doesn't ping and knock either like it does on ethanol cr@p.

    Personally, I believe ethanol gas is the biggest scam ever perpetrated on Americans in present day America. But I digress....

    I buy the stuff for all my lawn equipment and planes.I cannot tell you how much better both of those things run better with NON ETHANOL!
    Eagles may soar, but weasels don\'\'t get sucked into jet engines!

  23. #48
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    RE: Today's gas no problem... NO way...

    I think the last time we had "pure gasoline" was back in the late 1800's and early 1900's when it was sold in pint and quart cans at the local mercantile store in town. It must have been a heck of a tough journey to drive a car or a motorcyle long distance back when there were no roads per se only horse and buggy tracks and you had to buy your gasoline at the mercantile store in a town.
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  24. #49

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    RE: Today's gas no problem... NO way...

    Earl, 
    I thought of something after reading your post. IN Europe there was a lot of incidence of seal failure when the region change to the low sulphur fuels that are so widespread around the world. The main contributor to the seal failure was actually a lack of aromatics in the fuels. After stripping out sulphur the aromatics would also be reduced as typically compounded sulphur is bonded to aromatic structures.
    In an area where the fuel is still high in aromatics say 50% of the gasoline composition and higher then what happens is during the period the carb is fuelled, the seals absorb the aromatics from the fuel. This leads to a bit of swelling of the seal. Then the user runs the carb dry for the winter and packs it away and the seals are no longer exposed to the fuel, the aromatic compounds evaporate leading t the seal shrinking and material break down.
    This was mostly solved through the use of Viton material for seals. I am wondering if Viton is in common use the RC engine manufacturers? The industrial folks don't seem to have the same problems. Perhaps they have it covered under maintenance practices

  25. #50
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    RE: Today's gas no problem... NO way...

    Timbli,
    That might be the problem. I suspect that since the vast majority of the carbs are made in China, that it really depends on the engine manufacturer's specs as to what the materials are they used for the rubber parts inside. I can see the utility engines like weed wackers and chain saws using better parts. Plus the high end RC gas engines, I assume, would use the better parts. But the low end engines would be very questionable as to what they used inside the carbs. The Viton seals and gaskets do cost more so I can see that being a cost cutting measure. That is one reason why Walbro has a seemingly endless variety of carbs for engines where it depends on what the vendor or manufacturer wants.
    The Chinese still use a different gasoline than we do, but the SEF gasoline I mentioned above smells a lot like the gasoline the Chinese use, as I have a couple of engines that came from China that had been test run at the factory using Chinese gasoline. So in China they may not have any problems with the engines and carbs like we could have here. Normally a person would not think anything of it with the gasolines being different from each other around the world.

    Club Saito #722, Sig Kadet Brotherhood #80, GlowHead Brotherhood #14,
    AMA # 928076


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