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New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84

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Old 01-21-2013, 03:19 AM
  #76
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Default RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84

The last thought that came to mind is humble,pm me and we'll go from there.Sr telemaster posts a lot of real good info about this very subject and like it or not it is given.Think about that.;
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Old 01-21-2013, 04:36 AM
  #77
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Default RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84

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ORIGINAL: n8622t

Wow a certified shrink.....sorry dude I know what I want and it ain't glow
Better go back & read my posts more carfully.

I NEVER advocated running GLOW IGNITION. I convert every one of my Saito FA engines to CDI.

In case you don't know it, CDI stands for Capacitive Discharge Ignition. The same spark ignition that is used for most gas engines.

It's not the "gas" that makes (some) "gas" engines so dependable, it's the spark ignition.

If you are refering to glow fuel, no need for glow fuel, just run straight methanol, about 1/2 the price of gasoline.

Go ahead, buy the Saito FG84. Be a guinnea pig. Maybe they will get it right this time. They sure haven't seemed to so far. Just go through this forum & read the multitude of threads about problems W/saito FG engines.

It will be interesting to see how long Saito's FG engines last compared to the same FA engines. Problem is, I don't think anyone has been able to accumulate enough hours on an FG engine to make that evaluation.

I can make 4 HP W/my high compression FA180HC CDI BBC engine. That's about 67% more power than an FG30 W/O all the headaches. Heck, it makes 33% more power than the much larger/heavier FG36.

Aircraft engines are all about power to weight ratio. The most effecient combo in that respect is CDI/methanol.
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Old 01-21-2013, 01:00 PM
  #78
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Default RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84

i haven't found any methanol for $2 a gallon.. not even close. What am i missing cause I'd sure like to buy some at that price.
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Old 01-21-2013, 01:09 PM
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Default RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84

SrTele is spot on in his evaluation
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Old 01-21-2013, 01:26 PM
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Default RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84


Quote:
ORIGINAL: BobH

i haven't found any methanol for $2 a gallon.. not even close. What am i missing cause I'd sure like to buy some at that price.
55 gallon drum is about $100.
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Old 01-21-2013, 01:39 PM
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Default RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84

I was thinking that but I cant buy nor store a 100 gal drum.. so that's not practical for me.
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Old 01-21-2013, 01:54 PM
  #82
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Default RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84


Quote:
ORIGINAL: BobH

I was thinking that but I cant buy nor store a 100 gal drum.. so that's not practical for me.
Go in W/a buddy (or club) that has a pickup truck & a garage.

I drum of methanol will likely last you both a couple of years.

Keep the drum sealed to keep out moisture & the methanol has a long shelf life. Some say indefinate.
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Old 01-21-2013, 02:08 PM
  #83
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Default RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84

Quote:
ORIGINAL: n8622t

Convenience of availability, economical value, and no oily residue of gasoline far far far..... Did I say far.....outweighs the ever so slight loss of power over glow fuel, in my humble opinion
The stability that a timed spark introduces into the equasion reduces the need for EXCESS lubrication that is the norm to protect engines running an unstable ignition such as glow ignition.

W/CDI/methanol, oil content can be reduced to around 8-10% even W/the non-roller bearing Saito 4-strokes. Still more oil than the 2-4% reguired for REAL gasoline engines, but not a whole lot more than the Saito FG requirements.

I ran my FA180HCCDI BBC on 8% lube content 30% nitro glow fuel. The amont of oil coming out of my positive case venting system was surprising.

Using 20% less fuel W/50% less oil will reduce the oily mess to some extent.

Besides, when do you inspect your airframe? I do that when I wipe my plane down at the end of the day. Formula 409 makes quick work of the synthetic oil I use & wiping down every inch of the airframe allows me to inspect for loose control surfaces, covering, fasteners, etc.
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Old 01-21-2013, 03:35 PM
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Default RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84

Quote:
ORIGINAL: n8622t

Convenience of availability, economical value, and no oily residue of gasoline far far far..... Did I say far.....outweighs the ever so slight loss of power over glow fuel, in my humble opinion
My FA180HC CDI BBC engine burning 15% Cool Power spins an 18X8 prop @ 8450 RPM. 3.44HP W/21# of thrust.

Compare that to an estimated 2.4HP for an FG30 & thats 43% more HP for the glow fuel engine.

Want to really wail"? Go up to 30% nitro W/8% oil & spin the same 18 X8 @ 8850 RPM.

Now we are making 4HP & 23# of thrust.

Now we are talking 67% more HP from the same displacement, hardly an "ever so slight" loss of power. Even the lower nitro content fuel make almost 1/2 again as much power. I don't think that qualifies as "ever so slight" either.
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Old 01-21-2013, 09:14 PM
  #85
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Default RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84

I don't know why a glow lover is even on a gas engine thread.... Hmmmmmm may need a psychiatric evaluation
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Old 01-21-2013, 10:36 PM
  #86
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Default RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84

Quote:
ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150

Same price, same displacement, same HP as the FG84 at .8# less weight.

Designed as a gas engine from the start.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/market/item.cfm?itemId=884603
Yes, but I want the FG-84.

-I want to use gas not glow. I hate methanol, because it eats my paint. I hate to have to order methanol from snake-oil salesmen,
when I can buy gas on the gas station.

- I want a 4-stroke boxer or 3-cyl with enough power that fits in the cowling of a scale 1/4.5 Fw-190. The Roto does not.

-I want a 4-stroke boxer or 3-cyl with enough power that fits inside the cowling of an ESM 50cc Corsair.The Roto does not.

-The price is reasonable.

But the ignition trouble people have with the RcExl ignition is really too bad for Saito.

Not to mention for us. It is extremely dissapointing. I guess RcExl dont do any random long-time testing of production units.
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Old 01-22-2013, 03:54 AM
  #87
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Default RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84

my way of reading the whole rapid entry re gas engines for saito is just that,a bit chaotic at first but man they've got their act together quickly.No company is going to waste time running around and telling people how stupid they've been.You might as well wish you could see a re-run of billy bob thorton in "bad santa"

like to see saito come up with something like kolm engines are doing.the fg57 is awesome
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:55 AM
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Default RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84

Quote:
ORIGINAL: n8622t

I don't know why a glow lover is even on a gas engine thread.... Hmmmmmm may need a psychiatric evaluation

Can't you comprehend anything that you read?

I hate "GLOW", as in glow ignition. I like methanol. Right now for me "glow fuel" is the easiest source of methanol. If I didn't live so far out in the boonies I would buy a drum of methanol.

I have nothing against gas (4-stroke ) engines. I just don't think Saito has come to the table W/a gas engine that is viable for the long term yet.

Your response is typical when someone gets "owned" like you did over your "slight loss of power" comment. You refuse to acknowledge your mistake & change the subject.

I don't know what someone that can't even read & comprehend is doing making comments on something he obviously doesn't understand.

Now let's see if the "post nannies" delete my post for defending myself against your snide, sarcastic post. Adult "debate" is called "arguing" here & is frowned upon.

BTW: I was invited to post on the gas forum regarding the lack of reliability of Saito(RCXEL) ignition systems. Since I have been using C&H CDI systems since 1997, it was felt that I might have something to contribute.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:59 AM
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Default RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84

Quote:
ORIGINAL: kwik

Quote:
ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150

Same price, same displacement, same HP as the FG84 at .8# less weight.

Designed as a gas engine from the start.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/market/item.cfm?itemId=884603
Yes, but I want the FG-84.

-I want to use gas not glow. I hate methanol, because it eats my paint. I hate to have to order methanol from snake-oil salesmen,
when I can buy gas on the gas station.

- I want a 4-stroke boxer or 3-cyl with enough power that fits in the cowling of a scale 1/4.5 Fw-190. The Roto does not.

-I want a 4-stroke boxer or 3-cyl with enough power that fits inside the cowling of an ESM 50cc Corsair.The Roto does not.

-The price is reasonable.

But the ignition trouble people have with the RcExl ignition is really too bad for Saito. Not to mention for us. It is extremely dissapointing. I guess RcExl dont do any random long-time testing of production units.

If you could stand a slight drop in power output get an FA450R3 & have C&H convert it.(to gas) It will on all probablility be much more reliable that the FG84.

Right now the FA450R3 is $1359 shipped @ Horizon. C&H has a single module, single hall sensor CDI prototype working.
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Old 01-22-2013, 06:36 AM
  #90
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Default RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84

I've a Saito 450 NIB waiting for me to build a TBF.   I'd be interested in the glow ignition for it soon. I'll stick with glofuel. 

Conversion to gas can reek havoc on the conrods in some engines.  Lots of pop and heat than with methanol. 

I just had my Enya VT240 overhauled by BJ's and am happy with the result.  New rings and bearings etc.   Give Bob a call and see if he can work your engine

http://www.bj-model-engines.com/

I'm still holding an OS .91 on the old CH throttle coupled ingnition.  Love it dearly.

Ray W.
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Old 01-22-2013, 06:59 AM
  #91
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Default RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Kinner

I've a Saito 450 NIB waiting for me to build a TBF. I'd be interested in the glow ignition for it soon. I'll stick with glofuel.

Conversion to gas can reek havoc on the conrods in some engines. Lots of pop and heat than with methanol.

I just had my Enya VT240 overhauled by BJ's and am happy with the result. New rings and bearings etc. Give Bob a call and see if he can work your engine

http://www.bj-model-engines.com/

I'm still holding an OS .91 on the old CH throttle coupled ingnition. Love it dearly.

Ray W.
Call [link=http://ch-ignitions.com/]ADRIAN AT C&H[/link]

He has a new system specifically designed for the Saito FA450R3.

You will in all likelyhood get his voicemail, but he will call you back ASAP.
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Old 01-22-2013, 09:50 AM
  #92
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Default RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84

SrTelemaster150, let n8622t keep posting. The hole gets bigger and bigger.

Thanks for the facts and figures as opposed to his method of attack.

Bob
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Old 01-22-2013, 02:57 PM
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Default RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84


Quote:
ORIGINAL: retransit

SrTelemaster150, let n8622t keep posting. The hole gets bigger and bigger.

Thanks for the facts and figures as opposed to his method of attack.

Bob
Now that I have you in here with me I won't be so lonely bob
Facts and figures are great too, if yer interested in glow/gas comparisons.... Sorry I'm only interested in this engine and to get as much info on it as possible... Not much out there yet unfortunately
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Old 01-22-2013, 07:01 PM
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Default RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84

Quote:
ORIGINAL: BobH

It's about .5 lbs heavier than the 450r glow version. Difficult to compare power yet but it does have nearly 10cc more displacement. Maybe it'll swing one size larger prop more efficiently.. time will tell. Or Kwik will tell us! lol

When you go from glow ignition (FA450R3) to gas (FG84R3) W/a Saito 4-stroke, there is usually about a 15% drop in power.

Saito has increased the displacement 10% on the FG84R3 to try to compensate for that.

Problem is, they have in all likelyhood, dropped compression considerably as when 180 pots are bolted to a 150 bottom end, (that's exactly what this displacement comes out to) the shorter 150 length rod, the compression ratio drops under 8:1. That significantly cuts back on TQ as well as HP

If you are expecting power above that of the FA450R3 you WILL be disappointed. It will in all likely hood be slightly less, definately not more power.


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Old 01-22-2013, 07:07 PM
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Default RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84


Quote:
ORIGINAL: n8622t


Quote:
ORIGINAL: retransit

SrTelemaster150, let n8622t keep posting. The hole gets bigger and bigger.

Thanks for the facts and figures as opposed to his method of attack.

Bob
Now that I have you in here with me I won't be so lonely bob
Facts and figures are great too, if yer interested in glow/gas comparisons.... Sorry I'm only interested in this engine and to get as much info on it as possible... Not much out there yet unfortunately

WHAT?
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Old 01-22-2013, 07:24 PM
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Default RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84

Quote:
ORIGINAL: CH Ignitions

Guys , I just finish a conversion on a SR450 on CDI glow and it runs real nice,
I had a Vess 24B and I do not know how to translate this in a ...pitch 24x10? and it spins 6400RPMs.
The guy did not wanted me to go on gasoline, he wanted Glow CDI ...it has a Kello Creation muffler ....boy what a sound, it idle at 800-900 depending on the outside temp ,humidity and time of the day....but it runs nice, I sent Alf a quick video.

Adrian

6400 W/a 24 x 10 is 5.9HP 37# of thrust.

I imagine tha is at the conservative 28* BTDC ignition advance setting.

Crank it up to 35* BTDC to take full advantage of the methanol & it will gain about about 100-200 more RPM.
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Old 01-23-2013, 04:26 AM
  #97
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Default RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84

Gee it's getting a bit warm in here,i guess you could put that down to gas versus glo cylinder head temp wise
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Old 01-23-2013, 05:42 AM
  #98
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Default RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84

I may have missed some particulars but does anyone know the timing from idle to WOT with the new thing?

35 BTC is seriously aggressive setting.  Might need a heavy prop or flywheel to keep that running.

I've still to call CH and get the particulars. 

Ray W
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Old 01-23-2013, 06:59 AM
  #99
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Default RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Kinner

I may have missed some particulars but does anyone know the timing from idle to WOT with the new thing?

35 BTC is seriously aggressive setting. Might need a heavy prop or flywheel to keep that running.

I've still to call CH and get the particulars.

Ray W
35 * BTDC is too aggressive for gasoline.

Methanol needs more spark advance due to slower flame propagation.

Methanol will run fine @ 28* BTDC (the usual advance setting for gas) but it will usually run better by 200 RPM or so W/the more aggressive spark advance.

That slower burn rate also makes the methanol fuel engine easy to start even though the spark advance @ idle is about 11* BTDC when the initial setting is 35* BTDC.

Adrian & I discussed building in 4-6 more degrees of retard for starting (28-30*) but I have not had any issues W/idle or flip starting W/the standard 24* retard set @ 35* BTDC W/methanol. As can be seen in this video clip of my high compression FA180HC CDI engine, idle & hand starting is excellent W/the 35* BTDC initial spark advance setting when the fuel is methanol.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xaiAR8Yelc[/youtube]





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Old 01-23-2013, 07:15 AM
  #100
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Default RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84

Thanks for that vid.   Seeing the large ring about the hub, was that a TCSA?  

I've set my TCSA on my .91 at about 2BTC for start up and up to 25 BTC or so (memory fade here) at WOT.  Using a nice Dynathrust 15-8 and/or 16-8 for the flywheel effect, I got a respectable 1K idle. 

I would love to see the TCSA return as it allows the modeler to set up his own preferrences as to timing. 

Ray W

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