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Saito FG57 Fourstroke

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Old 09-08-2012, 01:45 PM
  #26
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Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

Mr G, I am a bit afraid of destroying something.Not very afraid of blowing a sensor; I have many. But I wouldnt like to damage the new ignitions....

But you have a good point there, I might try it; It would save the day....or ..not.

I would like to mention some improvements I can see on the new ignition;

1) Inside the plug-cap it seems they have a proper lock on mechanism for the plug. Not that little, tiny spring anymore.
Personally I think this is the most important improvement. What a silly solution that little spring was!

2) The ground wire.

3) The silicone inside the cap seems to be of higher density.

4) Tolerating 5V-8V instead of 4V-6V

But the tach output is gone !
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Old 09-08-2012, 02:56 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

Don't blame you about not taking a chance. Those ignition modules are expensive. They did make some good improvements it seems. Makes you wonder why they'd make all those good changes and take away the Tach input. I've not run my 57T a lot other than the break in period. So far I've had good luck with the ignition but I have used a 5V regulator on it from the start.

I believe you can use a Y cable off the sensor and still use your tach.

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Old 09-08-2012, 05:20 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

Hi kwik.I'm puzzled when i look at the pics you have posted so far.My ignition system is completely different.Says on the side that it is a version 2 made by rxcel and branded saito.Have the tacho sensor as it is a three wire set up.
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Old 09-08-2012, 05:22 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

Mr g how did the run in go? did you have exhaust residue out of the lefthand cylinder only and have you touched the needles yet or was it fine as is? meant to mention that my ignition is 6 to 8 volts only
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Old 09-08-2012, 10:38 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

Mr Grumpy;
I have been thinking about an Y-Cable myself !!!

Now, why being Grumpy, with so many good ideas !

I wonder if the new two wire sensor (which I dont have) is grounded via the fastening screws?

That would be the work of a genius! No ground, no spark. And you can damage the ignition if you fire it without ground.....

Mr. Fart;
I bought my engine from Advantage Hobby. Also the ignition.

They ship to Norway, you see. Horizon did not when I tried last time.( A couple of years ago)

Maybe you bought yours from Horizon? Or maybe yours is the original one, in that case equal to the one I
got with my engine, now replaced with this new one.

ya33;
Thank you SO MUCH for your advice on which plug is for the sensor. Much appreciated!

New starter;

I used a new starter from Hobby King when trying to start the Corsair;


http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...dProduct=16197


Best starter so far for me. And believe me, I've had many!

Turns the engine with ease. Smoothly, no jolt that scares you sh@$less.

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Old 09-09-2012, 02:56 AM
  #31
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Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Old Fart

Mr g how did the run in go? did you have exhaust residue out of the lefthand cylinder only and have you touched the needles yet or was it fine as is? meant to mention that my ignition is 6 to 8 volts only
My initial break in was picture perfect. Couldn't ask for an easier starting engine. I didn't change either needle setting from the factory. I choked it with my finger over the carb intake, flipped the prop a few times, turned on the ignition and it started on the second flip. Ran great. I followed the manual for the break in period. Then came valve adjustment time.

Let me say I've not had a lot of experience adjusting valves on engines so my issues with the adjustment may be due to my own lack of experience. My previous Saitos had a feeler gauge I could use. That's because Saito didn't want Grumpy old farts (yea I'm one of those to) like me calling customer service about to have a cardiac event.

I tried adjusting the valves using the manuals description but it left a lot to be desired. My initial attempt left me with white smoke coming from the left cylinder and erratic running. That cardiac event took one step closer....

What I got from the manual basically was we supplied you with a feeler gauge you can't use. The description told me that the tappet clearance wouldn't change significantly from cold to hot due to the metals used so I decided to just tighten the adjustment just till I felt resistance. That seemed to work for me and the impending cardiac event passed.

I've not run the engine a lot. Only on a test stand. I do like it enough to purchase a second one. I found one used for $750 and couldn't pass it up. It's going in my winter project, a 1/3 scale Spacewalker.

So far, for a grumpy person, I'm pretty satisfied. By the way, if your interested in an alternate method of choking the engine with a servo and a offset retract door hinge, let me know.

Mr G
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Old 09-09-2012, 03:06 AM
  #32
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Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

Quote:
ORIGINAL: kwik

Mr Grumpy;
I have been thinking about an Y-Cable myself !!!

Now, why being Grumpy, with so many good ideas !

I wonder if the new two wire sensor (which I dont have) is grounded via the fastening screws?

That would be the work of a genius! No ground, no spark. And you can damage the ignition if you fire it without ground.....
Mr Grump was a name given to me by my kids. They put it on a Fathers Day T-shirt. I've used it ever sense and that was over 40 years ago.

I did think about the Hall sensor being grounded through the mounting screws but forgot to mention it.

Your right, no ground equals a broken ignition. I'm just not sure how a person could verify it before trying it and it may fry the ignition or sensor.

Mr G
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Old 09-10-2012, 10:20 AM
  #33
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Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

Good day Old Fart, I thought you might be interested in this info.
I was at the flying field this past weekend when a visiting flyer showed up with a 1/4 scale Piper Cub powered by an FG57. It is the first time I have actually seen and heard the FG57 run. The sound from the engine is awesome, the Cub would lift off in less then 30ft and would go straight up without any effort, so I believe theCub is slightly over powered Lol.
It always started with justone flip of the prop and according to the owner he had 80+ flights on the Saito.He said sinceownership, hehasnever had a problem with the ignition system or any other problem with the engine; it has worked flawlessly since new.
After seeing how well the FG57 performed and the awesome sound it makes, I would not hesitate to purchase one for myself. I betthe FG57would be an ideal engine choicefor the new TF FW-190 ARF.

Roger
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Old 09-10-2012, 10:51 AM
  #34
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Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke


Quote:
ORIGINAL: ForcesR

Good day Old Fart, I thought you might be interested in this info.
I was at the flying field this past weekend when a visiting flyer showed up with a 1/4 scale Piper Cub powered by an FG57. It is the first time I have actually seen and heard the FG57 run. The sound from the engine is awesome, the Cub would lift off in less then 30ft and would go straight up without any effort, so I believe the Cub is slightly over powered Lol.
It always started with just one flip of the prop and according to the owner he had 80+ flights on the Saito. He said since ownership, he has never had a problem with the ignition system or any other problem with the engine; it has worked flawlessly since new.
After seeing how well the FG57 performed and the awesome sound it makes, I would not hesitate to purchase one for myself. I bet the FG57 would be an ideal engine choice for the new TF FW-190 ARF.

Roger
I think it would be perfect for the TF Fw 190. As long as you get the latest ignition for it.
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Old 09-10-2012, 12:12 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

Grumpy, look at the starting here;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DApylNytv-U&feature=plcp

This is how my Saito has behaved for a year and a half (or so) . It has been a pleasure.

But suddenly one day it refused to start.

I am longing for the day when it is back in its good old shape !!! I love this engine. I have a Saito FG-36 as well. It is behaving just as well. The only thing I have had to adjust is the Low needle. It is impotant to adjust correctly, even to avoid coughing and stuff at high speed in the air. Not just for idle.

The valves, yes. Is it your impression that the adjustment thread is to course?
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Old 09-10-2012, 12:45 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

I remember that video. I got chills just looking at all that frozen water. It ran great for sure. I do hope you figure out your problem. I have an ignition/engine problem with a Zenoah G26EI. I tried everything. Replaced most everything except internal engine parts. Never found the problem. It'll run fine on the original Zenoah ignition module but not on an RCEXL ignition made for it. The thing is, it ran great on it for a few months. It would start and run for 5 seconds or so then die. Take of the RCEXL ignition, replace it with the Zenoah, it runs fine.

I don't understand what you mean when you say "adjustment thread"? Is there a forum thread I'm missing?

Mr G
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Old 09-10-2012, 01:02 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

Sorry for being unclear.

I meant the threads on the adjustment screw. hehe.

Gruumpy, If we are talking about the RcExl type with three wires, I can tell you that I have boght 4 the last year from Octopus RC,
and had nothing but trouble. For my XYZ 53 cc.

Thats why I was happy to see that the FG-57 ignition was a new type. I dont know whats going on with the RcExl ignitions,
I liked them so much with the tacho output, but they have only lasted for a short while for me in conjunction with the XYZ.

Could it be that those that come with the engines are sort of "screened" from a production-line of ignitions, and are the ones working?

And when we buy them individually, we get them from the same production line, "unscreened"? So that we
randomly get garbage? You agree it might seem that way? And the screened ones only works for so long....
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Old 09-10-2012, 01:32 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

Oh! Got it! Yea, the threads are definitely to coarse. It makes it difficult to make fine adjustments. It's hard enough to hold it in position with one hand and tighten the lock nut with the other.

I tried two new RCEXL ignitions on the Zenoah but with the same result. I changed everything externally. I checked the fly wheel key to see if it had shifted since it appeared to be a timing problem. It starts and when the ignition changes (advances?) the timing, it dies. I changed the sensor, ignition, battery, switch, checked the wiring, even changed the carb. Still the same result. I even took an RCEXL ignition off a Zenoah G20 which is the same ignition, it wouldn't work on the G26EI. One of these days, I'm going to tear the engine down.

Your guess is as good as mine on the production line kwik. Could be though. Still, there's a lot of new engines coming to market with RCEXL modules.

I hope you figure your our Friend. I'm learning a lot as this thread progresses.

Mr G
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Old 09-10-2012, 06:45 PM
  #39
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Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke


Quote:
ORIGINAL: kwik

Mr G, I am a bit afraid of destroying something.Not very afraid of blowing a sensor; I have many. But I wouldnt like to damage the new ignitions....

But you have a good point there, I might try it; It would save the day....or ..not.

I would like to mention some improvements I can see on the new ignition;

1) Inside the plug-cap it seems they have a proper lock on mechanism for the plug. Not that little, tiny spring anymore.
Personally I think this is the most important improvement. What a silly solution that little spring was!

2) The ground wire.

3) The silicone inside the cap seems to be of higher density.

4) Tolerating 5V-8V instead of 4V-6V

But the tach output is gone !
I would think the RED wire is + pos and white wire is signal.They are not tied togeather Red should have battery voltage and white slightly less.Green wire is ground. The hall sensor must have a ground usually black wire. Is the hall switch grounded where it is mounted?. If it is you should be a;; OK.With everything hooked to batt switch and all touch the white wire coming from the ign to the ground or green wire,as you make and breake this connection the Ign should fire the spark plug. Do not ground the red wire this will let the smoke out.Then it will not work.
BCCHI
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Old 09-11-2012, 03:32 AM
  #40
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Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

I'm an electrical illiterate and have seen the smoke come out,they must run on it and when there is no more they stop.Could you post the ideal three wire set up for us newbies and i will look at what the manual says as well,cheers.
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Old 09-11-2012, 03:42 AM
  #41
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Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

Mr g thank you for that.i've got a bad case of first gas engine fourstroke start syndrome.I run plenty of saito glow fourstrokes and have settled into them comfortably.With your valve adjustment the current thinking for glow saitos and the one piece head and barrel has the barrel expanding with heat far faster than the valve gear,so you can set tight clearances like .002 and have them grow as the engine gets hotter.That's on methonol which is a cool fuel and lots more of it goes thru the glow engine compared to a gas sipping fg57 and i'm told they run a lot hotter.Would this have exacerbated your rocker to valve clearance issue,i'm surprised at what you say happened,cheers peter
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Old 09-11-2012, 03:48 AM
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Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

Hi mate thanks for the info,a fw190 sounds good but will have to wait till i crash this one first
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Old 09-11-2012, 09:00 AM
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Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Old Fart

Hi mate thanks for the info,a fw190 sounds good but will have to wait till i crash this one first
Old Fart,I was just thinking out loud, the TFFW-190 with a FG-57 is what I am consideringon purchasing as my next projectaircraft

Roger
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Old 09-12-2012, 01:26 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

Update;

Advantage Hobby told me I need to explain the problem with pictures, and send it to them, and they would forward it to Saito.
I did that.

So it seems this will take some time.....the Corsair has been grounded for quite a while now.


The situation up until now in short;

In march 2011, I bought the FG-57 from Advantage Hobby.

I also have the FG-36. I love these engines.

Since I got the FG-57 so early, I got the first, now old style ignition (and sensor).

The ignition lasted a year ( 30 flights) . I used a Life A123 battery directly on it, which is a bit to high voltage. Probably was the cause. And maybe not.

Anyway;
I bought a new RcExcl ignition from Octopus RC . ($75, instead of $222 on Advantage Hobby. The picture of SAIG57T153 on Advantage Hobby shows the old ignition....)
This time using a 5V regulator.
It lasted about 15 flights.

Bought two more from Octopus RC. One of them didn’t work. The other one doesn’t give full rpm on the Saito,
only 4500 rpm with a Menz 22x10. ( Should be approx 6500 rpm)

Then I read on the forums that there is a new ignition for the Saito FG-57. The same quality as for my FG-36.
I was very happy to read about my modeler friends on the forums having the new FG-57 and that it is working well.

So I ordered 2 ignitions from Advantage Hobby. SAIG57T153. $222 x 2.

Remember:
The old ignition sensor I got with the FG-57, March 2011 has a 3 Wire Futaba Plug. ( See picture below)

The new sensor plug from the new ignition, SAIG57T153 has a 2 Wire, new style plug. ( See picture below)

So,
the new SAIG57T153 ignition is for a new type of sensor. With two wires and a different plug.

( But the SAIG57T153 ignition set contains the old style sensor; Cannot be used. )

My situation now is that;
I have a FG-57 with many old style sensors, and old style ignitions, none of them working properly.
And 2 new ignitions for $222 x 2 but no new sensors.
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Old 09-12-2012, 01:43 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Mr_Grump

I tried two new RCEXL ignitions on the Zenoah but with the same result. I changed everything externally. I checked the fly wheel key to see if it had shifted since it appeared to be a timing problem. It starts and when the ignition changes (advances?) the timing, it dies. I changed the sensor, ignition, battery, switch, checked the wiring, even changed the carb. Still the same result. I even took an RCEXL ignition off a Zenoah G20 which is the same ignition, it wouldn't work on the G26EI. One of these days, I'm going to tear the engine down.

Mr G
Very strange. Have no idea what it could be.

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Old 09-12-2012, 02:34 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

On my ignition there are three wires with plugs only...where is the earth wire or is it grounded at the sensor???
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Old 09-12-2012, 03:24 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Old Fart

On my ignition there are three wires with plugs only...where is the earth wire or is it grounded at the sensor???

You should have 3 wires coming from the module/sensor. Black, Red & White. Red is positive, black is negative & the white wire is the signal. Usually there is a universal (servo) connector or a small "Deans" plug. If it a Deans plug there is a groove offset to insure polarity. They are situated just like a servo connection so it is impossible to hook up in reverse polarity although they can be hooked up bass ackwards.

Any quality EI system will have a shielded/grounded plug wire/connector that grounds the whole system to the base of the sparkplug/engine block.
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Old 09-12-2012, 03:51 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

I have an FG-36 too. The sensor on it has only 2 wires as well. And the same plug.

There is now grounding on the sensor side. Just plastic.

2 wires indicates to me some kind of current loop. Current loops have just two wires.
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Old 09-12-2012, 04:03 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

I'm new to this "Gas" forum, but I have been running C&H Ignitions on Saito 4-strokes W/glow fuel since 1997, one system on a Saito 300 TTDP. I have never experienced all the problems you guys are experiencing W/the Saito OEM systems.

Looks like Saito "reinvented the wheel" & made things a lot more complicated than neccessary.

All of my systems have 3 wires, black, red & white from the hall sensor. The early ones use a Deans connector for the hall sensor & a simple black/red universal servo type connector for power. Later systems use the Futaba connector for the hall sensor. (not an upgrade in my book)

There is no need for a separate tach circuit as a "Y" connector can be utilized in the hall sensor lead if one desires a tach connection. If the shielded plug lead is grounded via a McDaniels socket, there is no need for a separate ground lead from the case to the block. The shield on the plug lead grounds the module case to the plug base/engine block.

All those differing set-ups Saito is experimenting with sound like a real clusterflop.
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Old 09-12-2012, 04:12 PM
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Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

Quote:
ORIGINAL: kwik

I have an FG-36 too. The sensor on it has only 2 wires as well. And the same plug.

There is now grounding on the sensor side. Just plastic.

2 wires indicates to me some kind of current loop. Current loops have just two wires.

Well If you have red & white, that tells me that there is a power supply (red/positive) & a signal (white) wire. Perhaps thay are using a ground circuit (negative) through the mount bolt in the hall sensor mount. That could eliminate the need for a (black) ground on the hall sensor lead, but it would make the green ground wire part of the hall sensor circuit. Set up like that it will not fire spark W/the plug remote from the block (like a 3 wire hall circuit) unless the green ground is connected.

If that's the case, you should read some continuity from red on the hall sensor circuit to the green ground lead, but not a short circuit. There should be some ohms resistance.

It still sound like a "reinvented wheel" to me.
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