Gas Engines Questions or comments about gas engines can be posted here

Saito FG57 Fourstroke

Reply
Old 09-19-2012, 03:30 AM
  #101
Old Fart
Thread Starter
 
Old Fart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Perth, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 3,502
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

Not many given your skill me thinks and a couple of quick questions for the lectrically illitrate re 57 ignition boxes of which i have the plastic cased version 2..tried to start the engine in the airframe last night no go not even a cough or two.Overprimed/underprimed tried it all even pulled the plugs and had a sniff..there's fuel there.What i'm going to try next is discard the switch harness and plug the 5cell eneloop directly into the ignition which you cannot plug in wrongly,it just won't let you no matter how hard you try.To check if i have spark with both plugs out is it safe to ground just one of them on the engine case as that would be a one person jobby..if i need to ground both at the same time i need a mate to come around while i flick the prop over.Hope you can shed some light for the mushrooms
Old Fart is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2012, 08:04 AM
  #102
CH Ignitions
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Posts: 372
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke


First to make sure you have spark....take both SPK's out.
Insert them in to the metal caps, those are internaly connected to the ground.
Connect the battery directly to the ignition module and flip the prop. When your magnet get so the sensor and just passes
you should see sparks on both SPKs.

If you do not see spark ...disconnect the sensor from the ignition module and on the ignition connector with a small thin wire that will fit in to the
female plug prongs...connect one end to the BLACK wire side.
Now the other end very fast and short touch the WHITE wire. Every time you should see spark.
If not ...Module is bad and need another one. If engine is under warranty you should get it free. If not....let me know about and I will make you one.

If module sparks then you will have issue with the sensor. Check connection between "futaba" plugs. If that does not work....then your sensor is bad.

If you see sparks then connect your hanes SW and do the same. If you se spark then you know you good on ignition.
Now go ahead and put the plugs in, Use a spinner and turn the engine around. Trough your Tygon tubing you should see
fuel comming to the carb. If not....carb is the issue.
If you see fuel, use the book recomaded setings and engine it should start.

Hope it helps.
Thanks
Adrian
CH Ignitions is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2012, 12:01 PM
  #103
SrTelemaster150
 
SrTelemaster150's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Brasher Falls, NY
Posts: 3,536
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke


Quote:
ORIGINAL: CH Ignitions


First to make sure you have spark....take both SPK's out.
Insert them in to the metal caps, those are internaly connected to the ground.
Connect the battery directly to the ignition module and flip the prop. When your magnet get so the sensor and just passes
you should see sparks on both SPKs.

If you do not see spark ...disconnect the sensor from the ignition module and on the ignition connector with a small thin wire that will fit in to the
female plug prongs...connect one end to the BLACK wire side.
Now the other end very fast and short touch the WHITE wire. Every time you should see spark.
If not ...Module is bad and need another one. If engine is under warranty you should get it free. If not....let me know about and I will make you one.

If module sparks then you will have issue with the sensor. Check connection between ''futaba'' plugs. If that does not work....then your sensor is bad.

If you see sparks then connect your hanes SW and do the same. If you se spark then you know you good on ignition.
Now go ahead and put the plugs in, Use a spinner and turn the engine around. Trough your Tygon tubing you should see
fuel comming to the carb. If not....carb is the issue.
If you see fuel, use the book recomaded setings and engine it should start.

Hope it helps.
Thanks
Adrian

OK, let me see if I understand this. To check the sensor you unplug the sensor lead & make momentary contact from black (negative) to the white (signal) wire on the lead from the module. (W/power to the module) What this is doing is sending signal to the module as the sensor would?

I'm not having any issue @ present, but I want to know how to eliminate the sensor as a problem when trouble shooting. When I 1st tried to fire up my Saito 300 twin I had issues. It took me long time to trace it to a loose hall sensor. After I re-glued the sensor to the bracket it now works fine, but I spent a lot of time fiddling W/plugs & such.

Knowing this might make things easier @ some time in the future.
SrTelemaster150 is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2012, 09:41 PM
  #104
kwik
 
kwik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: kongsberg, NORWAY
Posts: 1,328
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke


Quote:
ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150

I was wondering how much your Hurricane weighs. The FG30 seems to have plenty of power to pull it.
According to Alf, the weight of the Hurricane is 8.2 Kg.
kwik is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2012, 09:57 PM
  #105
affas
 
affas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lier, NORWAY
Posts: 470
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

That is all correct Kwik. And it is with approx half tank.

Have a look 01:00 here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dit5E...&feature=g-upl

affas is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2012, 10:48 PM
  #106
kwik
 
kwik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: kongsberg, NORWAY
Posts: 1,328
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

Alf, I have a complete video dedicated to your ESM Hurricane only;

(Flying with C & H Ignition and a differnt than original carburator)

I had the ESM Hurri once. ( Didnt last long, hehe) But it looked smaller than this? Or is it the same size, I wonder.

It really looks nice in Battle of Britain colors like that. Mine had different painting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bJpND3N2KM&feature=plcp
kwik is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2012, 11:00 PM
  #107
affas
 
affas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lier, NORWAY
Posts: 470
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

So You are going to show my bad landings as well
affas is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2012, 03:24 AM
  #108
Old Fart
Thread Starter
 
Old Fart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Perth, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 3,502
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

Thanks for the answer adrian it was much apprteciated will be trying to start it this weekend and will come back to this email when i do that,again,thankyou it gives a better understanding.Just a quick note the plug caps are silicone moulded inside and there is a three quarter steel cap ring around the outside that touches the heads so i'm thinking that is the ignition earth.I have some trial and error stuff to do now,how simple glow engines feel
Old Fart is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2012, 04:36 AM
  #109
SrTelemaster150
 
SrTelemaster150's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Brasher Falls, NY
Posts: 3,536
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Old Fart

Thanks for the answer adrian it was much apprteciated will be trying to start it this weekend and will come back to this email when i do that,again,thankyou it gives a better understanding.Just a quick note the plug caps are silicone moulded inside and there is a three quarter steel cap ring around the outside that touches the heads so i'm thinking that is the ignition earth.I have some trial and error stuff to do now,how simple glow engines feel

As long as the cap is in metal to metal contact W/the sparkplug base it will be grounded when the shileded ground type spark plug leads are employed.

This is the case even if the plug is not in contact W/the engine as the high voltage circuit will still be complete.

The (three wire) Hall sensor circuit has it's own "ground" also.
SrTelemaster150 is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2012, 12:52 PM
  #110
CH Ignitions
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Posts: 372
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke



Thanks for posting, I did several of those engines but Inever seen any on the air.
On the test stand they all do good. steady idle, brisk acceleration and no missings.
One thing...due to the nature of intake design, I suggest to check the 4 bolts regulary. They have the tendency to come loose.

Thanks
Adrian

CH Ignitions is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2012, 12:00 AM
  #111
kwik
 
kwik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: kongsberg, NORWAY
Posts: 1,328
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

When trying to start an engine the first time, and if you have no idea on whether the Lo and or Hi needle is in the ballpark, it might be an idea
the reset the needles to what the manual says.

Then using an electrical starter, cycle the throttle from lo to hich while running the starter.

Hopefully you will then hit a setting that makes it start. After that it will be easier to lean or increase the lo-setting to
a correct level, and adjust idle on the radio, so that it gets a correct amount of fuel the next time you want to start it.

Of course it is also a good idea to secure the plane with a rope or something, in case it starts on full speed.

But you need a spark first, yes. I usually , using a spare hall sensor plugged into the ignition, and two spark plugs
(if its a twin ) plugged into the caps, use a magnet, just moving it over the hall sensor, checking of there is a spark
on both plugs. You can sit on your living room table checking it like this with a cup of cofee.
kwik is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2012, 03:52 AM
  #112
SrTelemaster150
 
SrTelemaster150's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Brasher Falls, NY
Posts: 3,536
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke


Quote:
ORIGINAL: kwik

When trying to start an engine the first time, and if you have no idea on whether the Lo and or Hi needle is in the ballpark, it might be an idea
the reset the needles to what the manual says.

Then using an electrical starter, cycle the throttle from lo to hich while running the starter.

Hopefully you will then hit a setting that makes it start. After that it will be easier to lean or increase the lo-setting to
a correct level, and adjust idle on the radio, so that it gets a correct amount of fuel the next time you want to start it.

Of course it is also a good idea to secure the plane with a rope or something, in case it starts on full speed.

But you need a spark first, yes. I usually , using a spare hall sensor plugged into the ignition, and two spark plugs
(if its a twin ) plugged into the caps, use a magnet, just moving it over the hall sensor, checking of there is a spark
on both plugs. You can sit on your living room table checking it like this with a cup of cofee.
Also be advised that the hall sensor is sensitive to the polarity of the magnet. If you are using a loose magnet for testing & don't get spark on the 1st try, reverse the polarity of the magnet for a 2nd attempt..

One learmed this W/the early C&H systems.

They had a front/rear facing magnet in a delrin ring that passed in front of the Hall sensor. It was marked W/black felt marker for poarity, but sometimes the mark would become removed after the initial set-up making it neccessary to check this on later installations.
SrTelemaster150 is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2012, 04:04 AM
  #113
kwik
 
kwik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: kongsberg, NORWAY
Posts: 1,328
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

If you test it with a magnet you hold in your hand and it works, then, as mentioned above, it might still not work on the engine, because of the polarity issue.

If you have the RcExcel style sensor in post 44, the one with 3 wire futaba plug, the sensor might have been put into the plastic holder, reversed.

It is in fact possible to get the sensor pulled out of the plastic holder, turn it 180 degrees, and put it in again.
kwik is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2012, 05:34 AM
  #114
Old Fart
Thread Starter
 
Old Fart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Perth, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 3,502
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

Thanks for the advice kwik i re-checked everything from back to front from the ignition battery pack to the sensor and discovered i had made a basic mistake.With both plugs out and then grounded to the heads i now had brilliant blue flashes everywhere.Quickly put the plugs back in and took the aeroplane outside to peg it down for the first ever engine start.After a prime i gave the prop a few flips and then turned the ignition on.My flying mate did the honours while i chickened out and held the tx on qtr throttle.He flipped it six times and just as i thought it was going to be de ja vu the bloody thing fired.Nothing i've seen and heard on you tube re the fg57 prepares you for that instant explosion of sound when you are that close to it.Although i was standing behind the prop i still jumped back a bit,my mate was in a slightly worse position but handled it well.Even tho i only ran it for ten minutes as it's a sunday i can still hear that crackly barking sound it made and only ran it at 3000.Felt like it was making enough thrust to easily fly the 9kg airframe slowly with the 22x10 apc and for the first time i thought if you really gas this thing up i might have overdone it powerwise,now that's a strange feeling.
Old Fart is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2012, 05:41 AM
  #115
kwik
 
kwik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: kongsberg, NORWAY
Posts: 1,328
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Old Fart

He flipped it six times and just as i thought it was going to be de ja vu the bloody thing fired.Nothing i've seen and heard on you tube re the fg57 prepares you for that instant explosion of sound when you are that close to it.Although i was standing behind the prop i still jumped back a bit,my mate was in a slightly worse position but handled it well.Even tho i only ran it for ten minutes as it's a sunday i can still hear that crackly barking sound it made and only ran it at 3000.Felt like it was making enough thrust to easily fly the 9kg airframe slowly with the 22x10 apc and for the first time i thought if you really gas this thing up i might have overdone it powerwise,now that's a strange feeling.
Congratulations!

So you are using a 22x10 APC ? Good grief, thats like putting a big razor-blade up front.

I am really scared of the APC's. Myself I am only using wood propellers nowadays.
But I have probably evolved into becoming a real coward regarding propellers.

Here is my first test of the Saito FG-57; 7'th May, 2011; Difficult not to like the sound ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivZ4T6LQeVw&feature=plcp
kwik is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2012, 05:49 AM
  #116
CH Ignitions
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Posts: 372
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

Guys, Does any one has a radial 3 Cylinder engine, Iwant to test a new system that I come up with it.
#3cyl first then Imove to 5 and hope 7 and 9.

Thanks
Adrian

CH Ignitions is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2012, 09:55 AM
  #117
affas
 
affas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lier, NORWAY
Posts: 470
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

Ypu can borrow my Saito FG 84 as soon as it is available
affas is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2012, 10:33 AM
  #118
CH Ignitions
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Posts: 372
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

Thanks,
Alf, Your other engines arrived yesterday.
It does not have to be the FG84. Can be a ASP...etc on GLOW, Iwill try ignited Glow.
Worked out on the schematic for several months now and I got to the point were I can try to test it. if will be running good then Iwill release it to
public.
How is the landing gear did you pick it out from customs?


Thanks
Adrian
CH Ignitions is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2012, 09:15 PM
  #119
MKnutson
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Shoreline, WA
Posts: 97
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

I've got one of these engines, and it runs very good, but, had a radio problem, plane went in with a carbon prop and it bent the crank.
Changed the crank and all the bearings, a bit over $250. While the engine was apart I noticed the #2 bearing was shot engine only had 5 flights!
Got new plane, lubed the bejesus out of the engine while it was waiting for the plane to get done. The new crank and new bearings turned dead smooth after the rebuild.
Flew the plane today for the first time after rebuild,2 flights later the bearings feel VERY BAD!! Won't run it this way! For those who haven't seen the size of the #2 bearing, you would be suprized how small it is. Iv'e seen 120's with bigger thrust load bearings! I see this as a Major design flaw because this engine makes some serious thrust against a bearing that is WAY too small!
Right now I say, look at other engines in this power class, because this is a real expensive paperweight at this time.

Sorry for the rant, because it runs so good I'm just a little ____, at it right now.

Mark
MKnutson is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2012, 02:18 AM
  #120
SrTelemaster150
 
SrTelemaster150's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Brasher Falls, NY
Posts: 3,536
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke


Quote:
ORIGINAL: MKnutson

I've got one of these engines, and it runs very good, but, had a radio problem, plane went in with a carbon prop and it bent the crank.
Changed the crank and all the bearings, a bit over $250. While the engine was apart I noticed the #2 bearing was shot engine only had 5 flights!
Got new plane, lubed the bejesus out of the engine while it was waiting for the plane to get done. The new crank and new bearings turned dead smooth after the rebuild.
Flew the plane today for the first time after rebuild,2 flights later the bearings feel VERY BAD!! Won't run it this way! For those who haven't seen the size of the #2 bearing, you would be suprized how small it is. Iv'e seen 120's with bigger thrust load bearings! I see this as a Major design flaw because this engine makes some serious thrust against a bearing that is WAY too small!
Right now I say, look at other engines in this power class, because this is a real expensive paperweight at this time.

Sorry for the rant, because it runs so good I'm just a little ____, at it right now.

Mark

What engine are you talking about?
SrTelemaster150 is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2012, 05:34 AM
  #121
Old Fart
Thread Starter
 
Old Fart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Perth, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 3,502
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

Hello mark sorry to hear you are having problems there should'nt be any axial load on the bearings anyone can step in and correct me if that was wrong.Don't know if you are talking about the mythical new saito fg84 radial or not.As far as new saito bearings go i've had a mixed run with them,some good some not so don't know if they outsource the manufacture or not,and if they do how many companies supply saito with these bearings.Apart from that i run saitos because i like them problems and all.What i do and WILL ***** about is a total lack of INFORMATION from the supply source re the many and varied problems that crop up with HARDWARE such as carbys(fg20) and ignition systems on NEW gas engines they develop on a so called major forum as this one..aaagghh! that feels better like to add that the fg57 has half a tank thru it now out of consideration for the neighbours and snarls nicely so far.Cheers all
Old Fart is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2012, 08:21 AM
  #122
kwik
 
kwik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: kongsberg, NORWAY
Posts: 1,328
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

Mark, it would be of help ( I assume you are talking about the FG-57, since this is a FG-57 thread) if you identify
which bearing you are talking about from the exploded view;

( Item number.....)
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Ay74979.jpg
Views:	19
Size:	207.9 KB
ID:	1804455   Click image for larger version

Name:	Zu66382.jpg
Views:	18
Size:	107.8 KB
ID:	1804456  
kwik is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2012, 08:05 PM
  #123
MKnutson
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Shoreline, WA
Posts: 97
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

Yes the engine I'm talking about is this one, (FG57T), and the bearing in question is #21 on the blow up view.
This bearing is a large inside diameter, 17mm x 30mm x 7mm, by a relatively small outside dia. and fairly narrow meaning small balls to take the load.
Something in there has to take the load of the prop trying to pull the crank out of the case, in this one it's #21.
It's not worth it to send it back Horizon just for a 15.00 bearing. I'm going to get a bearing of I hope better quality elsewhere, VXB Bearings on the web.
Front bearing is 6200LU, center is 6903 open, and rear is 6003 open for general info.

Mark.
MKnutson is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2012, 08:10 PM
  #124
MKnutson
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Shoreline, WA
Posts: 97
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

Please don't think I hate this engine, because I don't! It sounds so good and this one runs great!
Right now it resides on the front of a Great planes Ultimate Bipe 160, and pulls it very well!

Mark.
MKnutson is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2012, 09:54 PM
  #125
kwik
 
kwik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: kongsberg, NORWAY
Posts: 1,328
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Saito FG57 Fourstroke

Mark, you woul'nt believe how much are helping the other users, when you post info about replacement bearings here.

To find a replacement bearing "out there" is not easy for us users, you know.

However, I went to http://www.vxb.com/

This sentence here isnt really enough information to me;

"Front bearing is 6200LU, center is 6903 open, and rear is 6003 open for general info. "

I tried to search for 6903 on that web page, but got too many hits.

Do you perhaps have item numbers?

Regarding center ball bearing, 6903, Is this the one I need? I dont know;

http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/Kit12861

Regarding Front bearing, 6200LU, Is this the one I need?;

http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/6200-2RS10-1

Regarding rear is 6003, Is this the one I need?;

http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/Kit9678


kwik is offline  
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:10 AM.