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SURPRISE: Redline oil might not be the best out there

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Old 11-12-2012, 06:58 AM
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q8cub
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Default SURPRISE: Redline oil might not be the best out there

To my surprise, after doing tests on two engines: dle-55 and dle-111 using redline oil and ACE synthetic oil, here are the results,

DLE 55 (on an extra with fair air ventilation)

Redline: temp range 96-106
ACE: temp range 86-96


DLE-111 (on a yak - no baffles used)
Redline: temp range 122-130!!!
ACE: temp range 98-118


Temps are in Celsius.


Conclusion: In general the ACE oil gave a 10-20 degrees difference!!! in both engines




Note: for the dle-111, I checked the needles and the low was 1 turn while the high was 3/4 turn. This is a difference of minus 1/4 turn for the low and 3/4 for the high!!! I think it was too lean. The reason I got this lean was to raise the RPM to 6000 (it was around 5400) plus the engine was spitting black oil residue so I thought it could have been too rich!

Now I am confused:

1- Is ACE oil better than Redline?

2- Was the dle-111 too lean? I guess 130 is too dangerously high temp!!

3- Are there any factors other than engine temp to gauge the quality of an oil?


Thanks in advance!

Note: I searched for the ACE synthetic oil in the gas engines forum and did not find a single trace of it!!! Anyone heard of it ?


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Old 11-12-2012, 07:31 AM
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Default RE: SURPRISE: Redline oil might not be the best out there

For the comparison to really have much merit your the oil tests should be carried out using the same engine and model. I have never heard anyone say that Red Line oil was the best, but rather that is very good. Just my 02 cents.

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Old 11-12-2012, 07:32 AM
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Default RE: SURPRISE: Redline oil might not be the best out there

First thing I wonder is, was the RPM the same the same with both oils? maybe the temp was up because because the RPM was up?


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Old 11-12-2012, 07:37 AM
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Default RE: SURPRISE: Redline oil might not be the best out there

And what did the engines look like inside after being flown for a few gallons and torn down?
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:40 AM
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Default RE: SURPRISE: Redline oil might not be the best out there


Quote:
ORIGINAL: daveopam

First thing I wonder is, was the RPM the same the same with both oils? maybe the temp was up because because the RPM was up?


David

good point!

I will test this next time at the field.

So, your logic is like this. Redline allows the engine to provide higher RPM so this could be why it is giving higher temp!?

So, is the temp the only factor that gauges an oil type?
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:46 AM
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Default RE: SURPRISE: Redline oil might not be the best out there


Quote:
ORIGINAL: BarracudaHockey

And what did the engines look like inside after being flown for a few gallons and torn down?
for the dle-111, I only flew it 3 flights with a new needle setting which was I think too lean. So, I hope no damage has been done. I bring the needles back to factory setting improve air flow around the cylinders.

Any suggestions on where to go from here regarding the dle-111 ?

Should I continue using redline at 40:1 (with richer setting and better air ventilation)?

Thanks
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:48 AM
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Default RE: SURPRISE: Redline oil might not be the best out there


Quote:
ORIGINAL: q8cub


Quote:
ORIGINAL: BarracudaHockey

And what did the engines look like inside after being flown for a few gallons and torn down?
for the dle-111, I only flew it 3 flights with a new needle setting which was I think too lean. So, I hope no damage has been done. I will bring the needle back to factory setting improve air flow around the cylinders.

Any suggestions on where to go from here regarding the dle-111 ?

Should I continue using redline at 40:1 (with richer setting and better air ventilation)?

Thanks
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:15 AM
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Default RE: SURPRISE: Redline oil might not be the best out there

q8, how did you measure the temperatures? Dan.
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:30 AM
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Default RE: SURPRISE: Redline oil might not be the best out there

Quote:
ORIGINAL: All Day Dan

q8, how did you measure the temperatures? Dan.
using a temp gun soon after landing between second and third cyl fins away from the plug. I know this is not the most accurate way of measuring accuracy, but the point here is relative measurements. In other words, using the same method the temp difference is between 10-20 degrees.

One more thing, for the dle-111, I was flying it doing mostly a harrier! Does a harrier cause the engine to heat more than a hover? Since the engine is mostly at idle with less air flow!!
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:34 AM
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Default RE: SURPRISE: Redline oil might not be the best out there

The difference in temperature is because the engine was running leaner with the Red Line oil.

Red Line oil is all synthetic and contributes less to combustion than the Synthetic/mineral oil blends like the ACE Synthetic Blend oil.

Other than the mixture being wrong with one test, the temperature measurements mean nothing.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:41 AM
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Default RE: SURPRISE: Redline oil might not be the best out there

i am not buying into this until you do the test on the same engine,tuned the same,prop the same,and use a better way to measure the heat, and at a longer period of run time.also how long did you run the engines in between the switch in oils,COMON!
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Old 11-12-2012, 05:55 PM
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Default RE: SURPRISE: Redline oil might not be the best out there

They are correct in that you need to carefully measure out the oil to mix with the gasoline so it is accurate;y the same quantity with both. Then run your tests using the same engine. Now you could try both oils in one engine and then again in the other engine too. Then you can compare the results better.

That ACE oil is a synthetic and mineral oil blend of oil, it is not 100% synthetic oil.

The best oils I know of are Stihl Ultra and Amsoil Saber Pro, both oils are 100% synthetic and designed for two stroke air cooled engines.
I am sure Europe or Asia has something equivalent to it. Both of these oils don't carbon up the engine with residue deposits or sludge over time either.

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Old 11-12-2012, 06:55 PM
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Default RE: SURPRISE: Redline oil might not be the best out there

pennzoil aircooled 2 cycle oil, use that in my dle 55 and da 100 with no issues, plus over 1,000 hours of flight time behind rotax 2 strokes in ultralights and a 582 powered avid flyer, synthetics are highly over-rated and its not necessary to spend major bucks on that "special" snake oil(amsoil,redline or whatever) i have 3 local flyers that have engine troubles related to synthetics, 1 used klotz, piston and rings were carboned up so bad( rings stuck) within 30 hours he had to rebuild top end, he switched to pennzoil and has no issues with around 300 hours so far, another had crankshaft failure at 90 hours (amsoil) due to rust developing on bearings. the rotax rebuild center told him to never use amsoil or any straight synthetic oil due to poor corrosion protection due to stuff not being used for long periods of time(pennzoil user now) and lastly a fellow flier had the misfortune of seizing his engine up and having to ditch his ultralight in the river. (amsoil 80 to 1 mix that the amsoil rep told him that "other " fliers were using) i tried talking that flier out of using that low of a mix and go 50 to 1 instead because 80 to 1 isnt enough oil
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:58 PM
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Default RE: SURPRISE: Redline oil might not be the best out there

Pennzoil for Air cooled engines works good for me. I am testing Redline in another engine, but I do not see where it is any better at all. This plug has seen a lot of Penzoil....and a lot of wide open running....flash on camera made the white look brighter !

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Old 11-12-2012, 10:31 PM
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Default RE: SURPRISE: Redline oil might not be the best out there

i stopped switching brands and ratios of oil a long time ago.... but when i did change, i would make sure to reset the high end needle..... i also do the same thing when i change props, i learned this from my glow air plane days....different prop loads can change how an engine burns fuel
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:11 AM
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Default RE: SURPRISE: Redline oil might not be the best out there

John you do still use 30 / 1 or 32 / 1 on mix ????? for DLE !!!!

at least what the motor MFG. states to use on mix ????? for motor used

30 /1 is still 30 /1 is it not !!! or am I missing something hear !!!!

just because the oil bottlestates 40 /1 it does not mean it will be the same as 30 / 1 mix ???? R/L

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Old 11-13-2012, 04:31 AM
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Default RE: SURPRISE: Redline oil might not be the best out there


Quote:
ORIGINAL: q8cub

To my surprise, after doing tests on two engines: dle-55 and dle-111 using redline oil and ACE synthetic oil, here are the results,

DLE 55 (on an extra with fair air ventilation)

Redline: temp range 96-106
ACE: temp range 86-96


DLE-111 (on a yak - no baffles used)
Redline: temp range 122-130!!!
ACE: temp range 98-118


Temps are in Celsius.


Conclusion: In general the ACE oil gave a 10-20 degrees difference!!! in both engines




Note: for the dle-111, I checked the needles and the low was 1 turn while the high was 3/4 turn. This is a difference of minus 1/4 turn for the low and 3/4 for the high!!! I think it was too lean. The reason I got this lean was to raise the RPM to 6000 (it was around 5400) plus the engine was spitting black oil residue so I thought it could have been too rich!

Now I am confused:

1- Is ACE oil better than Redline?

2- Was the dle-111 too lean? I guess 130 is too dangerously high temp!!

3- Are there any factors other than engine temp to gauge the quality of an oil?


Thanks in advance!

Note: I searched for the ACE synthetic oil in the gas engines forum and did not find a single trace of it!!! Anyone heard of it ?


I ran high end two stroke engines in adverse conditions and have worked with various oils for many years and most of the decent oils do a great job. Most of it is just preference. The only thing that seems odd sometimes is how one person seems to get better use out of an oil and the other not so good. There are many variables to the equation that have to be weighed in. Sometimes it is just a matter of how the user runs the engine.

The only oils that I would not use are the el-cheapo mock off brands. Those will definitely give you some grief. You have be careful because the oil wars can get started. It is all about the pretty packaging. I stay away from the my oil is better than your oil garbage [X(] Back in the day I tested some of the not so good el-cheapo oils and yes, they were not so good. I would pull down my engines and could not hardly get the rings off!
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:44 AM
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Default RE: SURPRISE: Redline oil might not be the best out there

Yes I forgot to mention and I do agree that one does not go under 32:1 oil to fuel ratio even though the manufacturer might state the oil would work at 100:1 or 80:1 or even 40:1 for that matter. The extra low oil ratio works if the engine is being used as a weed trimmer or leaf blower, but not as a airplane engine. The airplane engine is being run at its highest power RPMs with its strongest load for a entire flight, time and again, and it really needs the extra oil to keep it lubricated. I have seen people post pics of failed engines and their connecting rods and needle bearings, showing needle bearings turning blue from the heat, where they were running lower oil ratios.

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Old 11-13-2012, 06:16 AM
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Default RE: SURPRISE: Redline oil might not be the best out there

I use 32-1 quality synthetic. An $8 for a quart of oil, at that it rate adds about $1 to the cost of a gallon of mixed fuel. Not much at all. Still beats the heck out of a price of 2-stroke glow fuel. Power differences may or may not come into play, but all my gas engines are still running, and some are 8 years old now.
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Old 11-13-2012, 07:52 AM
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Default RE: SURPRISE: Redline oil might not be the best out there

+1,
I buy my gas, Stilh HP Ultra and cholesterol/caffeine fix all within 5 minutes of the field[8D]
Wish I could totally dump the glow juice.
Pete
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Old 11-13-2012, 08:11 AM
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Default RE: SURPRISE: Redline oil might not be the best out there

Hello you might look at aeroshell oil sport plus 2 it's made for two stroke airplane engines  rotax airplane right on the lable well worth looking into good flying
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Old 11-13-2012, 08:29 AM
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Default RE: SURPRISE: Redline oil might not be the best out there


Quote:
ORIGINAL: RiverLarry

John you do still use 30 / 1 or 32 / 1 on mix ????? for DLE !!!!

at least what the motor MFG. states to use on mix ????? for motor used

30 /1 is still 30 /1 is it not !!! or am I missing something hear !!!!

just because the oil bottlestates 40 /1 it does not mean it will be the same as 30 / 1 mix ???? R/L

I use 30-1 always on the DLE30 using Pennzoil.I feel DLE needthat much oil! The plug photo was not a DLE or Mintor and the ratio was 32-1 most of the time.
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Old 11-13-2012, 09:48 AM
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Default RE: SURPRISE: Redline oil might not be the best out there



Also the use of Redline as recommended by some manufacturers is because it burns cleaner as evidenced by tearing down the engine after some hours as compared to other oils.  That as I understand it was solely the basis for the recommendation.  I do not recall any manufacturer producing data that says one lubes better than the other or produces a higher RPM.

However, generally sythetic oils perform better than most natural oils....

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Old 11-14-2012, 05:25 AM
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Default RE: SURPRISE: Redline oil might not be the best out there

i use to run pennzoil at 32-1 for years.after three years of runnig it in a dle55 i had to replace the crank and rod,lower rod bearings were bad. not the blame of pennzoil just what happens on the budget engines.
what i did notice is the carbon build up on the top of piston,not much but still there. then when they change the name to Outdoor oil and couldn't find Air Cooled, i just switch to Redline at 32-1,and what i found after running it in another dle55 i had no carbon at all on the top of piston.and it doesn't completely burn off, there is a thick film of it on the cylinder wall.
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Old 11-14-2012, 06:32 AM
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Default RE: SURPRISE: Redline oil might not be the best out there

Closetguy, I just broke my DLE down to install a Bowman ring. I have what you describe. No buildup any where of carbon. And a nice layer of oil on everything. I have used from day one Poulan synthetic, aircooled 40-1. So I would have to agree for the most part that most oils are descent enough. I think the ratio, the tune, the prop, and the pilot make just as much differenceas the effect of the oil on the engine.
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