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New Evolution 10cc gas engine

Old 11-18-2013, 02:56 PM
  #1651  
capdave
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Default Coil / Receiver Interference ??

I'm hoping this thread is still active.

So the basic question is -- Has anyone had issues with the coil interfering with the receiver.

I've had two planes crash due to receiver interference (using two different spektrum receivers on a dx8). One was a permanent bind loss,
where the coil was 4" from the receiver. The second was a "seizure" like interference (ie., random, violent, control inputs) and the coil was
8" from the receiver. Assume all prudences were taken on my part - I.E., plug secured and locked on, seperate battery for coil and receiver, etc.

After speaking to Horizon they advised me to send it in and I just put it in the mail today. From all the positive reviews I've been reading on this
thread, it sounds like I may have just been the unlucky one to get a bum coil or whatever.

Thanks.
Old 11-18-2013, 03:06 PM
  #1652  
Pete Bergstrom
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CapDave,

The only issues we have found with interference with our ignition system have all been traced back to loose connections at the plug cap. You mention that has been checked and confirmed so I'll ask a few more questions.

How close are the batteries mounted to each other?

Are the power wires from the batteries completely clear of each other or do they share some of the same routing?

Are the switches co-located or on separate sides of the fuselage?

Just a few thoughts ... love to hear your responses.

Pete
Old 11-18-2013, 08:04 PM
  #1653  
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Originally Posted by capdave
I'm hoping this thread is still active.

So the basic question is -- Has anyone had issues with the coil interfering with the receiver.

I've had two planes crash due to receiver interference (using two different spektrum receivers on a dx8). One was a permanent bind loss,
where the coil was 4" from the receiver. The second was a "seizure" like interference (ie., random, violent, control inputs) and the coil was
8" from the receiver. Assume all prudences were taken on my part - I.E., plug secured and locked on, seperate battery for coil and receiver, etc.

After speaking to Horizon they advised me to send it in and I just put it in the mail today. From all the positive reviews I've been reading on this
thread, it sounds like I may have just been the unlucky one to get a bum coil or whatever.

Thanks.

pictures of your setup might help here. I have the engine in a pretty small plane ( read close quarters to the receiver, battery is probably 3-4 inches from the receiver… )

I haven't had any issues like this but I'm sure there are several people following this thread that would love to try and help if they can.
Old 11-18-2013, 10:16 PM
  #1654  
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Originally Posted by Pete Bergstrom
CapDave,

The only issues we have found with interference with our ignition system have all been traced back to loose connections at the plug cap. You mention that has been checked and confirmed so I'll ask a few more questions.

How close are the batteries mounted to each other?

Are the power wires from the batteries completely clear of each other or do they share some of the same routing?

Are the switches co-located or on separate sides of the fuselage?

Just a few thoughts ... love to hear your responses.

Pete
After being in the Ignition and engine business for 30 years,we found nearly all cases of RFI were caused by incorrect instalation of the spark plug cap.Many fliers think they have the cap all the way on a locked but they really do not. Not saying this is the problem with this one.The RCEXL caps are tough to get on and locked,both on the 10 MM ,CM 6 and the 1/4x32 little plug.2.4 is pretty imune to RFI ,but not bullet prof.
I can build a Ignition that will eat up a 2.4 any of them.A open spark like you have with a cap not on correctly will get to any 2.4. We have said thousands of times the snap ring on the RCEXL cap must be all the way passed the hex on the spark plug to be on correctly. The 1/4x32 must be pushed down hard and turned clock wise a small amount and then will come up a little ways to be locked on.If you can pull it stright off it is not locked on.To remove push down hard and turn CCW. Probably useless information but true.
BCCHI Used to be C&H. AMA 2500.
Bill Carpenter
Old 11-19-2013, 08:56 AM
  #1655  
capdave
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Hi Mr. Bergstrom,

I took precaution to secure the plug cap per the manual - 1/8th turn - in both installations.
I did not crimp or alter the cap, as some have, it was a stock install. The engine ran good
on the ground. The very short time it was airborn (never made it past break-in), there were
some misfires - but the manual states those are to be expected during break-in.

> How close are the batteries mounted to each other?
On the Twist 40, yes, it was tight in there with two batteries.
On the Extra 300, the two batteries and coil were wrapped together, with 1/4" foam layers in between.

> Are the power wires from the batteries completely clear of each other or do they share some of the same routing?
On the Twist, since it was tight, you can probably assume - Yes.
On the Extra 300, they were pretty well clear as I recall, but not purposefully routed away from each other.

> Are the switches co-located or on separate sides of the fuselage?
On the Twist, yes, they were on the same side.
On the Extra, no, they were on opposite sides.

I have sent in pictures of the pre-post carnage/setup along with my service request - 001 002 113 772.
As it sounds, I respect that evidence is pointing away from the coil and now to the plug cap. But, I'm
not lacking in mechanical inclination and as stated, I'm not sure anyone would have taken any more
prudence with securing that plug cap than I did. Were there any "bad caps" ?

Thank you Sir,

Dave
Old 11-19-2013, 09:30 AM
  #1656  
capdave
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Originally Posted by Evgeny-arm
I had a similar problem.
.. Blame was a very bad constructively cap.
.. So love for our money, which we abundantly provoke do nothing to address the problems.
I want to go on record that I do NOT agree. The mere fact of Mr. Bergstrom's presence on this thread
indicates that Evolution does care. This was a new product with remarkably few issues, and I have
no doubt that any problem-patterns (again, very few) are being taken very seriously.
Old 11-19-2013, 09:45 AM
  #1657  
capdave
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Originally Posted by bcchi
.. open spark like you have with a cap not on correctly will get to any 2.4.
By "cap was not on correctly", I'll of course re-assert that there may have been an inability for my specific cap to seat itself correctly. That would seem to be the $199 question

On a technical note, in your experience could a loose-cap reverse the polarity of two 1/4" rare-earth canopy magnets that are 20" from the spark plug ?!
In the case of the extra 300 that is exactly what happened when the engine was fired up. Rare earth canopy magents do not come loose for dear life, and the rear canopy popped
up and "hovered" with the engine on ... and reconnected with the engine off. (The canopy would have popped off, but there were two dowels securing to the fuse on the other end.)
In hindsight, that should have been a warning sign - but nobody at the field had ever seen it before and at the time the consensus was that "vibration" was shaking the canopy off,
since the engine was vibrating more than your usual nitro (not a knock, gassers just vibrate more).

Last edited by capdave; 11-19-2013 at 10:45 AM.
Old 11-19-2013, 04:56 PM
  #1658  
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Originally Posted by capdave
By "cap was not on correctly", I'll of course re-assert that there may have been an inability for my specific cap to seat itself correctly. That would seem to be the $199 question

On a technical note, in your experience could a loose-cap reverse the polarity of two 1/4" rare-earth canopy magnets that are 20" from the spark plug ?!
In the case of the extra 300 that is exactly what happened when the engine was fired up. Rare earth canopy magents do not come loose for dear life, and the rear canopy popped
up and "hovered" with the engine on ... and reconnected with the engine off. (The canopy would have popped off, but there were two dowels securing to the fuse on the other end.)
In hindsight, that should have been a warning sign - but nobody at the field had ever seen it before and at the time the consensus was that "vibration" was shaking the canopy off,
since the engine was vibrating more than your usual nitro (not a knock, gassers just vibrate more).
you obviously got one that was possessed… :-)
Old 11-23-2013, 11:15 AM
  #1659  
giddyuperic
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Hello I am just about to break in my engine on a 60 size stick and I have four or five other gassers. So is this cap thing a big problem or we only hearing about it here? I am not running the engine upside down and I have pushed the cap on as far as it will go and it feels like it is on there really well. You know on most of the RC Excel one's you almost have to use a pry bar to get them off. I would like to hear from some people who have not had any problems are they out there. And how many people who are running this engine are having problems please and thank you for your time.
Old 11-23-2013, 12:06 PM
  #1660  
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Originally Posted by giddyuperic
Hello I am just about to break in my engine on a 60 size stick and I have four or five other gassers. So is this cap thing a big problem or we only hearing about it here? I am not running the engine upside down and I have pushed the cap on as far as it will go and it feels like it is on there really well. You know on most of the RC Excel one's you almost have to use a pry bar to get them off. I would like to hear from some people who have not had any problems are they out there. And how many people who are running this engine are having problems please and thank you for your time.
bought mine in ~january, one season of flying down and no interference/noise issues.
Old 11-23-2013, 01:19 PM
  #1661  
giddyuperic
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Okay that is 1. Thanks for the answer. Horizon engine techs did not know of any problems with the boot for this engine. So I installed mine all the way. Mine seems to be the exact size of the plug just like the DLE RC excel boot goes on and then a good hard push and it on and not coming off tell you want it off. Thanks

Last edited by giddyuperic; 11-23-2013 at 01:22 PM.
Old 12-06-2013, 07:12 PM
  #1662  
capdave
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Default Fourtitude tanks

Is anyone using this with a Fourtitude gas tank? Fourtitude "highly recommends" their 8oz tank
with the "Evolution 10cc". Yes, they advertise that. But the tank's instructions explicitly state that the tank should NOT be pressurized by the vent/muffler. I think the 10cc has a carb flow regulator, not a pump, so wouldn't the 10cc require some tank pressurization? The 10cc manual does says the vent line should connect to the muffler. I asked Fouritude for their statement. Thoughts here appreciated.
Old 12-06-2013, 07:28 PM
  #1663  
Pete Bergstrom
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Originally Posted by giddyuperic
Okay that is 1. Thanks for the answer. Horizon engine techs did not know of any problems with the boot for this engine. So I installed mine all the way. Mine seems to be the exact size of the plug just like the DLE RC excel boot goes on and then a good hard push and it on and not coming off tell you want it off. Thanks
Giddyup,

This is very important. To lock the cap in place you push it on as you have described and then rotate the cap clockwise about 1/6 of a turn. This will lock it in place. To remove you would rotate counterclockwise the same 1/6 of a turn and then pull straight off.

There are very many of these engines in the field being run and the few (3-4) issues of radio interference we are aware of can always be traced back to not locking the cap in place.

Pete
Old 12-06-2013, 07:42 PM
  #1664  
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Originally Posted by Pete Bergstrom
Giddyup,

This is very important. To lock the cap in place you push it on as you have described and then rotate the cap clockwise about 1/6 of a turn. This will lock it in place. To remove you would rotate counterclockwise the same 1/6 of a turn and then pull straight off.

There are very many of these engines in the field being run and the few (3-4) issues of radio interference we are aware of can always be traced back to not locking the cap in place.

Pete
I recently bought one of these engines and I read the instructions about locking the cap, it did take several tries to get it pushed down far enough to lock. I was trying to be careful not to break off the cap or the plug. I was about to give up and assume it was an error in the manual, but I finally did get it locked. I think I had to push it at least as hard as the plug cap on my DLE 35. It will twist and lock easily once you get it pushed down far enough.

Got about 1/2 hour of flying time on the engine on a .40 sized Ultra-Stick and it has been great. Okay, I like lots of power, I had an OS .82 Four Stroke on it before. Anyway, the engine was easy to start and the carb adjustment went very well. Also, no dead stick landings which is great for a new out of the box engine. Can't wait for our cold snap to end so I can get in more stick time.
Old 12-06-2013, 07:48 PM
  #1665  
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I just heard back (very quickly) from Fourtitude:
--
Sorry for the manual not having the up to date info.
The Evolution engines were not even available when I wrote them.
Answer to the question is yes using muffler pressure will be no problem at all.
I have tested it with the same 10cc engine you have and it works great.
Thanks,
Jason Danhakl
--
Old 12-06-2013, 08:59 PM
  #1666  
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Dave,
I have been running the Fortitude tank since the beginning of the flying season. My only complaint is I can't remember the name of the tank when someone asks. It has been flawless. You will like it.

Bruce
Old 12-07-2013, 04:50 AM
  #1667  
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Originally Posted by ke6gkc
Dave,
I have been running the Fortitude tank since the beginning of the flying season. My only complaint is I can't remember the name of the tank when someone asks. It has been flawless. You will like it.

Bruce
Are you using tank pressure?
What is the relation from the tank to the carb?
Old 12-13-2013, 08:52 PM
  #1668  
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Sorry I didn't get back to this till tonight. The tank centerline is a little lower than the carb. I am using muffler pressure as specified by Evolution. The tank is holding up very well. I did modify the original setup, I changed the clunk and tubing with the clunk and tubing supplied with the engine. See page 48 for the pictures of my Telemaster the engine is in. I use the airplane for training and to see how slow I can go. I can take a picture of the tank if you need it.

Bruce

Last edited by ke6gkc; 12-13-2013 at 09:04 PM.
Old 12-14-2013, 06:33 AM
  #1669  
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Originally Posted by jspauld2
Hi Guys,

In regards to the new smaller RCExl ignition versus the older style RCExl ignition: there should be no difference in the operation or the internals that would cause the issues you are experiencing. The ignition itself should use NO MORE than 500 mAh at wide open throttle. You should easily be able to run a 2000 mA battery for 1.5 hours powering just the ignition (I'm not sure about how much current draw the ibec demands). From the above post, it seems like it draws quite a bit of current.

I have also heard about a lot of guys running the ibec with no issues, maybe some of them can speak to what they are doing to be successful?

Marty H. if you haven't sent your engine in yet, I can confirm that they only need the engine. If they give you any problems with that let me know and I can straighten it out.

Thanks,
Jimmy
I had problems with the new RCEXL ignitions on a 4 Cell NiMi battery pack WITH the IBEC. The problem is that the new RCEXL ignitions, ones that will work on voltages above 4.8 volts (such as the one for the EVO and the DLE-35 for example) draw a little more current at the start of the capacitor charge cycle. The overall current draw is about the same. The problem is that the new ignition modules will start misfiring if the voltage drops below about 4.1 volts. The old, 4.8 volt only, ignition modules would work with the 4 Cell pack and IBEC combination because the current draw was not as heavy at the start of the capacitor charge cycle, so the voltage did not drop below about 4.2 volts with a fully charged battery pack. Also, the 4.8 volt only, ignition modules would work at a voltage below 4.1 volts. I never did the testing to see what the minimum voltage was that would cause the ignition to start cutting out, but I suspect it would work with an input voltage as low as 3.5 volts.

The problem is not with the "current draw" of the IBEC; it is negligible. The problem is the "voltage drop"; it will drop about 1.2 volts from the battery input voltage. To look at another way, if the battery voltage INPUT to the IBEC is 5.3 volts, the OUTPUT to the ignition module will be 4.1 volts and the new ignition modules will start cutting out.

FYI - If the IBEC ignition regulation voltage is set to 5.2 volts, the input voltage from the battery will need to be above 6.4 volts to maintain the 5.3 volt output. A lower battery input voltage to the IBEC will result in a lower voltage (by 1.2 volts) to the ignition module.

Another problem is that the voltmeters, used by most of us to monitor battery voltage, will not be able to display the "spikes" in the voltage that are caused during the ignition module charge and discharge. Your voltmeter may indicate 5 volts, but the voltage spike may actually be as low as 4.5 volts and that is the voltage that matters to enable the ignition module to work properly.

I know this may be TMI for a lot of you, but the bottom line is that if you use an ignition module that is designed for more than 4.8 volts, with any battery, AND an IBEC, and you want to be safe, don't fly if the battery voltage is below 5.5 volts. The good news is that if your ignition module starts cutting out, you can idle down the engine and still have enough current to run your receiver/servos and land your plane.

Last edited by Joystick TX; 12-14-2013 at 06:41 AM.
Old 12-18-2013, 03:09 PM
  #1670  
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I have a question to you guys with 10GX.
I local club member is trying to go gas.

Do you think the engine will be able to pull around the Great Planes J3 Cub 60size?

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXJ569&P=7

I was told the weight would be around 8 pounds. Not sure how he build the plane, but spec says 9.5 ~ 12 pounds.
He doesn't need the plane to do loop or roll, just want something flying slow.

What do you think?
Old 12-19-2013, 05:09 AM
  #1671  
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My recommendation is to use the 15 vice the 10 given the weight aand the way Cubs
behave on takeoff. I currently fly a 7 pound VK Cherokee on a 10 and a 9 pound
80's vintage pattern plane on the 15. The 15 gives the power of a hot .90 nitro while
the 10 has the power of a Super Tigre .56 if that helps yyou get some better reference
Old 12-19-2013, 05:44 AM
  #1672  
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I think the plane would "fly" with the 10 cc engine, but it would not be much fun and power would be marginal. A cub has a lot of drag and if the plane is built with the long wing, it may fly close to the edge of the stall speed, which will take a lot of concentration. It would be a little better with the clipped-wing configuration. A 15 cc engine would be about right and a 20 cc engine would give plenty of reserve power.
Old 12-19-2013, 07:46 AM
  #1673  
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Originally Posted by Joystick TX
I think the plane would "fly" with the 10 cc engine, but it would not be much fun and power would be marginal. A cub has a lot of drag and if the plane is built with the long wing, it may fly close to the edge of the stall speed, which will take a lot of concentration. It would be a little better with the clipped-wing configuration. A 15 cc engine would be about right and a 20 cc engine would give plenty of reserve power.
Re: the Evo, if the weight could be kept into the 8lb range, I think it might be fine? Heavier though, especially up into the 10-12lb range, I agree with Joystick. Too heavy to be much fun? You'll spend the majority of your flight time managing your flying speed. Possible, but not a very relaxing way to fly.

Too, the fact the 20cc would weigh the same or less than the 15 would be a deciding factor for me between those options.......
Old 12-19-2013, 11:34 AM
  #1674  
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Cub: high lift wing, slow/stable plane… its not really meant to have a lot of power. I'm going to be devil's advocate and say the 10GX is probably fine for scale cub like flight. If you want to hover go with the DLE20… though I think thats silly, our 1/4 scale cub had a 4 stroke 1.20 in it and that was overpowered… .60 size cub with a 20 would be…. well…..it would be fun, but not very cub-like.
Old 12-19-2013, 12:57 PM
  #1675  
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Most people are using a .90 four-stroke engine on that cub; it would be wise to stick with a gas engine that has about the same thrust. It is easy to throttle back to get scale like speed. Most flying with that engine is at 1/3 throttle. The takeoff roll, on a grass runway, with the .90 four-stroke engine is about 6 seconds at WOT.

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