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Running glow engines on gas/glowfuel mix

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Old 02-24-2013, 09:01 AM
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Von Ohain
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Default Running glow engines on gas/glowfuel mix

Hi!

I have seen this topic has been a bag of worms on other forums, so instead of starting another can of worms thread here by asking IF it works,
I'm going to tell you the answer. It DOES work.

I tried today, with a mixture of roughly 60% pump gas 98 octane, 30% glow fuel (coolpower 15% nitro, synthetic oil. the first and best thing i had at hand) and 10% mineral two stroke oil.
the engine i tried it with is a brand new ASP 91 four-stroke, mounted in a very generic (chinese) .40 size low-wing sports trainer.

After shaking the mixture was a nasty brown color, but the mixture appeared homogenous. Wich indicates that the ingredients did mix well.
the nasty color was probably due to green fuel being mixed with red oil.
At the end of the flying day, the mixture still appeared homogenous.

Differences I found was:
* Much longer flight times (increased from 12 minutes to 22 minutes)
* Much better fuel economy, gas is cheaper than glowfuel, and consumption is lower.
* Much leaner needle setting required.
* Maybe slightly less powerful, if any difference at all.
* Hotter running motor.

My motive for trying was that I had very little fuel and I WILL fly, my way or the highway :-)

Long term effects like changes in engine wear would at this point be unknown for me.
But I don't really care about that either, with the glow fuel costs, I would only have to fly up 8 liters (2 gallons) of this stuff before fuel savings has risen over the value of the engine.

Conclusion is that I will continue doing this.
Only change I will do is to mix gas-fuel-oil in ratios 45-45-10 instead of 60-30-10 in order to make the needle adjustment easier.
With high gas content in the fuel, the motor will have to run very lean and become hard to adjust (glow carbs isn't made to run that lean).

Please feel free to discuss my experiment, but don't say its not possible, like so many other threads do. Its possible, I have done it.
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Old 02-24-2013, 10:29 AM
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Default RE: Running glow engines on gas/glowfuel mix

The only disadvantage of your way is risk on o rings, imho.I suspect o rings in carb will be out of function eventually.
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Old 02-24-2013, 10:52 AM
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Default RE: Running glow engines on gas/glowfuel mix

Did you change your fuel tank stopper or fuel lines?
One of the UK magazines I read just did a story on running gas/fuel mix, the author seemed to like it. He said it made it easier to start in the cold which may be a BIG plus for you.
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Old 02-24-2013, 11:55 AM
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Default RE: Running glow engines on gas/glowfuel mix

Is there any advantage power wise to run gas/glow with a spark ignition? Gas/glow users site better power and lower idle on a glow plug, btw, YS's top of the line 170 uses a CDI on glow fuel
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:07 PM
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Default RE: Running glow engines on gas/glowfuel mix


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Von Ohain

Hi!

I have seen this topic has been a bag of worms on other forums, so instead of starting another can of worms thread here by asking IF it works,
I'm going to tell you the answer. It DOES work.

I tried today, with a mixture of roughly 60% pump gas 98 octane, 30% glow fuel (coolpower 15% nitro, synthetic oil. the first and best thing i had at hand) and 10% mineral two stroke oil.
the engine i tried it with is a brand new ASP 91 four-stroke, mounted in a very generic (chinese) .40 size low-wing sports trainer.

After shaking the mixture was a nasty brown color, but the mixture appeared homogenous. Wich indicates that the ingredients did mix well.
the nasty color was probably due to green fuel being mixed with red oil.
At the end of the flying day, the mixture still appeared homogenous.

Differences I found was:
* Much longer flight times (increased from 12 minutes to 22 minutes)
* Much better fuel economy, gas is cheaper than glowfuel, and consumption is lower.
* Much leaner needle setting required.
* Maybe slightly less powerful, if any difference at all.
* Hotter running motor.

My motive for trying was that I had very little fuel and I WILL fly, my way or the highway :-)

Long term effects like changes in engine wear would at this point be unknown for me.
But I don't really care about that either, with the glow fuel costs, I would only have to fly up 8 liters (2 gallons) of this stuff before fuel savings has risen over the value of the engine.

Conclusion is that I will continue doing this.
Only change I will do is to mix gas-fuel-oil in ratios 45-45-10 instead of 60-30-10 in order to make the needle adjustment easier.
With high gas content in the fuel, the motor will have to run very lean and become hard to adjust (glow carbs isn't made to run that lean).

Please feel free to discuss my experiment, but don't say its not possible, like so many other threads do. Its possible, I have done it.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_8009384/tm.htm
The link above is to the thread in the Engines forums specifically about HOW TO RUN Gas/Glow engines. 21 pages, I believe.
Best wishes,
Dave Olson
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Old 02-24-2013, 01:18 PM
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Default RE: Running glow engines on gas/glowfuel mix

Long time running reports are needed. Sure it works, but for how long?? Low/high loads?
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Old 02-24-2013, 01:57 PM
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Default RE: Running glow engines on gas/glowfuel mix

Thanks for the link. Seems like that guy tried modifying a spark ignition engine to run on gasglow, while i ran a unmodified glow engine on gasglow mix. So now we know that both works
I did no modifications to my fuel system except removing my fuel filter, which i know from earlier to "melt" in contact with gasoline.

Power wise this is in between glowfuel and gasoline. Closer to glowfuel, in my opinion.
That means, if you got a glow motor and run it on gasglow mix you will have a slight power drop. If you got a gas engine and mix in glowfuel, you will see power gains.


How it affects cold starting i dont know yet. I know glowfuel is bad stuff below -15 deg centigrade. I havent tried gasglow in that cold yet. I shall try later
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:50 PM
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Default RE: Running glow engines on gas/glowfuel mix

I wrote the "Gas/Glow Hot to" thread and I've been running Gas/Glow in several planes for about 5 years or more now I guess it is. No problems. The largest engine I have it on is my homemade Dual 24cc Echo tiwn. (48cc) Works great! However, I have a storage fuel I use that eliminates the Gas/Glow fuel in the system before I store the engine/plane. That way no problems with the methanol attracting moisture, nitro turning into acid, etc. I use this storage fuel in my regular gasoline ignition engines too though.

AV8TOR
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Old 02-25-2013, 01:21 AM
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Default RE: Running glow engines on gas/glowfuel mix

What do the bearings look like after all this time? how much oil? Oil types?
I know from converting a gas engine to glow, the crank pin bearing failed quite soon (standard glow fuel, 18% Fuchs Aerosave oil)
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Old 02-25-2013, 05:10 AM
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Default RE: Running glow engines on gas/glowfuel mix

I've been using Byron's Glow Fuel and premium gasoline to make my Gas/Glow mix, and I don't really know what their oil package consists of unfortunately. The standard Gas/Glow mix of 1 part 10 percent oil, 10 percent nitro to 2 parts premium gasoline yields an oil ratio of approximately 32:1.

I've only had occasion to pull one engine apart that had been running Gas/Glow, the others just haven't needed it. I was installing the one I took apart on a new plane, and just wanted to freshen it up. It is a Super Tiger .90 converted to roller rod bearing. It had a lot of use, but the bearings were fine. A little carbon build up, but not too bad and probably my fault as I always err on the rich side... Another factor might have been that the Super Tiger was really meant for glow fuel, and was probably running a touch hotter than normal, or design temp, when running on Gas/Glow. I've had no sticking rings nor other carbon related indications on my purpose built gasoline engines when running Gas/Glow. They actually run a touch cooler, and gain a couple hundred or so rpms running on Gas/Glow. They also start extremely easy, and will idle so low you can almost count the prop blades going by!! I have had them idling super slow when trying to kill the engine by closing the throttle all the way, idle really, really slow, then backfire and take off running in the opposite direction! Need a super effective speed brake?

AV8TOR
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Old 02-25-2013, 06:52 AM
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Default RE: Running glow engines on gas/glowfuel mix

Interesting that you lean out the oil so much, and it still works.
I shall try that too.

For a gasoline 2 stroke, 2% oil is enough.
For a glow engine, the oil is premixed and none of my worry as far as I'm concerned.
So each of the fuels on their own has enough oil.
Does that mean that I can mix them however I want and don't add any extra oil?

For my first test I added 10% 2 stroke oil, which is plentier than plenty for gasoline, and just about enough for nitro.
Could I skip that alltogether, provided that I mixed with 2% oil to the gasoline prior to adding glowfuel?

Keep in mind that Im using a unmodified glow engine.
I don't really know if its the type of fuel, or the construction of the glow engine, that makes it demand so much oil?
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Old 02-25-2013, 07:14 AM
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Default RE: Running glow engines on gas/glowfuel mix

Glow engines need more oil because the fuel (methanol) lacks all forms of lubricity. Methanol just does not lubricate at all.
Gasoline is in fact a very low viscosity lubricant, hence it needs less oil in the mix.
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Old 02-25-2013, 10:06 AM
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Default RE: Running glow engines on gas/glowfuel mix

With the Gas/Glow mix many of us have been using for years, you do not add any oil. The mix provides an oil mix ratio of 32:1 which is fine for gassers, and also sufficient for my Super Tiger .90 since it has had the bushing rod converted to roller bearings.

Here's a quick review, the first two posts have all the relevant info: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_80..._1/key_/tm.htm

AV8TOR
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Old 02-25-2013, 10:34 AM
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Default RE: Running glow engines on gas/glowfuel mix

THe cheapskate in me was immediately won over by this thread. I need to drive at least 20 miles each way to get glow fuel so any way to stretch a gallon would be welcome.

My questions are
1) What is the smallest glow engine that can be run with Gas/glow? My fleet ranges from .15 to .91. Only the .91 is a four stroke (Magnum, basically the same engine as the one used by the OP).
2) What about fuel lines? Is is necessary to replace them, and if so, with what?

I am thinking about trying this thing on a .46 TT pro on a beaten up Escapade...

Alberto
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Old 02-25-2013, 11:32 AM
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Default RE: Running glow engines on gas/glowfuel mix


Quote:
ORIGINAL: ululi1970

THe cheapskate in me was immediately won over by this thread. I need to drive at least 20 miles each way to get glow fuel so any way to stretch a gallon would be welcome.

My questions are
1) What is the smallest glow engine that can be run with Gas/glow? My fleet ranges from .15 to .91. Only the .91 is a four stroke (Magnum, basically the same engine as the one used by the OP).
2) What about fuel lines? Is is necessary to replace them, and if so, with what?

I am thinking about trying this thing on a .46 TT pro on a beaten up Escapade...

Alberto
Sorry but there are numerous problems with your idea. One, engines made for glow really don't have enough fin area to stay cool enough running Gas/Glow. It can be done if you have great cooling flow and never run lean, but it can be borderline. Two, a Glow carb doesn't really work well with gasoline; the settings are very critical. I converted my Super Tiger .90 to a gas engine Walbro carb, and I had to make modifications to get it to fit. Three, the Gas/Glow mix does not have near enough oil for use in a glow engine. My Super Tiger has had a special modification to put needle bearings and a hardened crank pin in it, and it can therefore survive with a much lower oil content in it's fuel. Glow engines generally need 17 to 20% oil, and the Gas/Glow mix only has about 3%. If you just go adding oil to the mix, you will be diluting the methanol percentage, and quite possibly creating a mix that won't run right. It is also possible that the oil you add might not be compatible with the glow fuel. Also, you would have to change all your fuel system components to a gas compatible material. Tank stopper, all fuel lines, etc. Just a whole big "can of worms" here with this one. Gas/Glow is really meant for Gasoline engines, not glow engines.

AV8TOR
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:37 PM
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Default RE: Running glow engines on gas/glowfuel mix

Maybe I am wrong, but the OP reports using it on a ASP .91 four stroke. It think we are talking about this engine

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...ow_Engine.html

Hopefully, the OP can confirm that...
If this is the case, we are taking about a glow engine here...

Alberto
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:44 PM
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Default RE: Running glow engines on gas/glowfuel mix

Well, please read my first post again then. it WORKS. its proven in real life by me, and myself as the only living witness, wich is all I need to know.

Carb problems is just as true for gas engines as it is for glow, glowers will run out-of-design lean to accept gasglow, and gassers will run out-of-design rich.
No series production carb known to me is made for this kind of home brew fuel.
Alse keep in mind that just how much you have to lean out the glow engine is totally dependant on how you mix the fuel.
There is no textbook answer stating that gasglow has to be mixed the way you do.
I mixed 60-30-10 gas-glow-oil by volume and it ran fine with the stock carb.
I had to lean it out, yes correct, and it was critical to adjust, yes correct, but it made it run. and it ran good, i had a 22 minute flight without any problems.
When motor stopped, the tank was dry as a desert.

So, please let me clarify again. i dont want this thread to be yet another thread about "if it possibly can work?".
It works. Period.

Long term effects is however a relevant question, and if O rings and oil for the crankpin bearing is the only issue you people can think of, I think its much less of a hassle to make this work with a glow engine, than making it work with a gas.
Oil rings: replace them, problem solved.
crankpin bearing: oil up the fuel as its supposed to be on a glow.

oil:
spark ignition has ben run forever on gas/alcohol mixes, and compatible oils has existed for equally long.
I wont guarantee anything for my first-and-best cheapy mineral 2 stroke oil, but it did stay in a homogenous mixture, wich is a good sign.
And mineral oils is used both with gas and alcohol fuels on their own, so why not in a mix?

I try to see opportunities, not obstacles.
My personal opinion is that its a lot easier for me to replace o rings in the carb, and mix fuel in the oil, than rebuilding the cylinder head of a gasser to make it accept glow plugs.
Case closed, from my point of view.

Alberto: Yes, its a ASP .91, its the same engine as the magnum .91, and the SC .91, and its bought from HK and its glow.
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:45 PM
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Default RE: Running glow engines on gas/glowfuel mix

I don't see the advantage of running a gas/glow mixture in a gasoline engine. That makes for higher overall fuel cost. The post if i understand it correctly is to run gas/glow in glow engines to reduce fuel cost.
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Old 02-25-2013, 05:31 PM
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Default RE: Running glow engines on gas/glowfuel mix

Ok, I think this is probably my final input on this one.... We "invented" Gas/Glow back when ignition systems cost 130 bucks plus, and some of us were interested in converting smaller, (meaning 20 to 30cc) "industrial" gasoline engines for model airplane use cheaply. Weedeaters, leaf blowers, chainsaws, etc. However, some of us have gone on to successfully convert engines up to 70cc and perhaps more.

Back then, with the cost of the ignition system and the weight penalty, using Gas/Glow on an engine that was originally meant for gasoline made a lot of sense and worked well. I still have three fairly large airplanes flying this system.

I personally have never endorsed converting engines that were meant for Glow Fuel use to Gasoline nor to Gas/Glow. That certainly does not mean it cannot be done, it does not mean that people have not done it successfully, and far be it from me to discourage experimentation. My comments are strictly as regards to the original Gas/Glow idea and intent, which was for engines that were originally designed to use a standard gasoline/oil mix.

I cannot tell you how many hours I have spent helping people diagnose problems with the Gas/Glow system, only to later find out they either were not following the original Gas/Glow guidelines, or were trying to convert a glow engine to Gas/Glow.

So no problems here; just remember the caveats I have stated, and please, post your results for everyone else to learn from.

AV8TOR
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Old 02-25-2013, 08:17 PM
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Default RE: Running glow engines on gas/glowfuel mix

Where does one buy 98 octane gas in the US (California) the highest I see at the pump around here is 91.
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Old 02-26-2013, 03:12 AM
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Default RE: Running glow engines on gas/glowfuel mix

Quote:
ORIGINAL: av8tor1977

Ok, I think this is probably my final input on this one.... We ''invented'' Gas/Glow back when ignition systems cost 130 bucks plus, and some of us were interested in converting smaller, (meaning 20 to 30cc) ''industrial'' gasoline engines for model airplane use cheaply. Weedeaters, leaf blowers, chainsaws, etc. However, some of us have gone on to successfully convert engines up to 70cc and perhaps more.

Back then, with the cost of the ignition system and the weight penalty, using Gas/Glow on an engine that was originally meant for gasoline made a lot of sense and worked well. I still have three fairly large airplanes flying this system.

I personally have never endorsed converting engines that were meant for Glow Fuel use to Gasoline nor to Gas/Glow. That certainly does not mean it cannot be done, it does not mean that people have not done it successfully, and far be it from me to discourage experimentation. My comments are strictly as regards to the original Gas/Glow idea and intent, which was for engines that were originally designed to use a standard gasoline/oil mix.

I cannot tell you how many hours I have spent helping people diagnose problems with the Gas/Glow system, only to later find out they either were not following the original Gas/Glow guidelines, or were trying to convert a glow engine to Gas/Glow.

So no problems here; just remember the caveats I have stated, and please, post your results for everyone else to learn from.

AV8TOR
I have a question, a little off topic, but this seems like the group to ask. I am running a small 18-21cc converted weedwhacker engine on a Senior Telemaster. While it flies, there isn't a surplus of power. If I mix in some glowfuel with the gasoline, will I get an increase in power/performance? Sorry to interrupt the thread, but, again, you guys seemed like the ones to ask.
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Old 02-26-2013, 05:32 AM
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Default RE: Running glow engines on gas/glowfuel mix


Quote:
ORIGINAL: davidhand

Where does one buy 98 octane gas in the US (California) the highest I see at the pump around here is 91.
http://pure-gas.org/
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:39 AM
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Default RE: Running glow engines on gas/glowfuel mix

As to the question about the Telemaster, the Gas/Glow mix does usually increase performance. An increase of 200 to 300 rpms is often seen, which with the 16" and larger props is a good amount of thrust.

RE: Gasoline, often people speaking of 98 octane gasoline are speaking of fuel that has been rated by the Research Octane Number. I believe this method is commonly used in Europe. In the USA, the octane posted on the pump is a function of the Reasearch Octane Number AND the Motor Octane Number with the formula being (RON + MON)/2. A fuel with a Reasearch Octane Number of 98 probably calculates to a 91 to 93 octane as calculated in the states.

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Old 02-26-2013, 07:29 PM
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Default RE: Running glow engines on gas/glowfuel mix

Here is a gas/glowfuel engine I set-up with AV8TOR,s help over the net. Watch for about one min....then jump to the 5 : 35 time on red slide. Here I show how easy it started. Remember this engine was covered with Ice on a 25 degree day. There is many things you can do with engines...just got to experiment like AV8TOR & myself. Capt,n http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c85M0Rq1TKE
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Old 02-26-2013, 09:54 PM
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Default RE: Running glow engines on gas/glowfuel mix

Mixing with methanol pulls gasoline octane no.  some  up.Then if you use it in a spark plug engine then it will needed to readjust of ign. timing.
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