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DLE 20.....very hard to start (80+ flips)

Old 03-21-2013, 05:39 PM
  #26  
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Default RE: DLE 20.....very hard to start (80+ flips)

I guess for me it is a pride thing. I hate to have to turn to an electric starter. One of the things that the guys at th field know it that my engines start easy and quickly no matter how long it has been since I have brought a plane out and I struggle with the rudder. Lol. (Another story). I feel that if the engine is tuned right I only need to flip it. So far so good. I will say that I have found that on the engines larger than the 30 dle you probably don't need to solder the carb. I just do as a part of my set up. And as for Walbro knowing more than we do, yes you might be right but I bet they never envisioned there carbs being used on rc airplanes. But as has been stated to each there own. I prefer less equipment at the field and an easy to start engine helps.
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Old 03-21-2013, 07:15 PM
  #27  
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Default RE: DLE 20.....very hard to start (80+ flips)

That is one of the benefits of moving more towards gas engines is that you do not need all of that old glow fuel support equipment. The main point is, if things are right, gassers are very easy to operate. Some of them just need some "tweaks".

OK, so could someone explain this reed block modification? I am curious about this one now.
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Old 03-22-2013, 04:17 AM
  #28  
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Default RE: DLE 20.....very hard to start (80+ flips)

In short, the reed block "mod" is assuring that the reeds are sealed closed when the engine isn't running. Due to mfg. issues, there's a (slim?) chance they may not be.

Some are making the assumption that they are not sealing unless that mod is done - and I have trouble with that assumption. I just don't agree? Not saying there's no possiblity, only that there's many, MANY guys not having a problem! I am not saying that if you are having trouble that the reed blocks shouldn't be suspect. I am saying that a common sense trouble shooting approach would have the logical person checking the easist things first?

If you're the cautious type who likes to error on the safe side, when you pull the engine out of the box and you're checking the throttle and choke plate scews to make sure they're tight/plates are in alignment, maybe then pull the carb and check the reeds?

Just one observation. The guys having the most trouble are the guys just coming up to speed with gas. Either there's a huge coincidence regarding those guys getting the engines with less than perfect reed valves, or this issue is becoming blown way out of proportion..... something typical of the internet.
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Old 03-22-2013, 04:30 AM
  #29  
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Default RE: DLE 20.....very hard to start (80+ flips)

Good summary. I have always thought the best thing to do is to find a mentor at your local club/flying field that has experience in your new area of interest. You can learn a lot and make a new friend.
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Old 03-22-2013, 05:32 AM
  #30  
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Default RE: DLE 20.....very hard to start (80+ flips)

"Just one observation. The guys having the most trouble are the guys just coming up to speed with gas. Either there's a huge coincidence regarding those guys getting the engines with less than perfect reed valves, or this issue is becoming blown way out of proportion..... something typical of the internet."

Agree on this statement. Most guys that are new to gas treat them like glow engines and always try to adjudt them. I tell them treat it like your chainsaw or weedeater. You put them away in the fall and get them back out in the spring and never touch the settings. At least i do. Gas engine are better at holding there settings than glow. I usually adjust before first flight and then only after break in. I have dles, evolutions, and zenoahs and all mine run great. I will be pulling the reed block on the 20 to check it as that one has some mid range burbling that i would like to try and eliminate.
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Old 03-22-2013, 10:23 AM
  #31  
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Default RE: DLE 20.....very hard to start (80+ flips)

While I agree with "newbies" having the most trouble, this is not the case in my instance. I'm not an expert, but I have been flying with gas engines for the last 10 years (20-111cc). I have never experienced this problem before.

I have done the "reed block mod" and soldered the hole in the choke plate closed. My reed block was not completely flat. I sanded it on a sheet of glass and you could see where it was not flat.

It might be a week or 2 before I can fly the plane...............I will report back.

Thanks for all of the help.
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:19 PM
  #32  
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Default RE: DLE 20.....very hard to start (80+ flips)


ORIGINAL: skillet92

''Just one observation. The guys having the most trouble are the guys just coming up to speed with gas. Either there's a huge coincidence regarding those guys getting the engines with less than perfect reed valves, or this issue is becoming blown way out of proportion..... something typical of the internet.''

Agree on this statement. Most guys that are new to gas treat them like glow engines and always try to adjudt them. I tell them treat it like your chainsaw or weedeater. You put them away in the fall and get them back out in the spring and never touch the settings. At least i do. Gas engine are better at holding there settings than glow. I usually adjust before first flight and then only after break in. I have dles, evolutions, and zenoahs and all mine run great. I will be pulling the reed block on the 20 to check it as that one has some mid range burbling that i would like to try and eliminate.
Reed valves that are not sealing like they could are most often noticed when starting, or at low rpms. That mid range "burble" is about mixture. You can mess with the mixture if you want, but guys that have opened their plug gaps up to .024-.025 report noticable reduction in burbling over and over again. The wider gap helps burn that rich mixture better - no clue why, but it's about the easiest thing in the world to try?

There's another thought regarding the load on the engine - as in usually when this happens (the burble thing) it's lightly loaded. You NEVER hear about an engine burbling when vertical? Loading it with the next size bigger prop may help you out as well?

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Old 03-28-2013, 10:31 AM
  #33  
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Default RE: DLE 20.....very hard to start (80+ flips)

**************** Update *********************



The above mods fixed the problem (see post #31). The engine now starts on the 15-20th flip.

Thanks for all of the help.
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Old 03-28-2013, 10:54 AM
  #34  
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Default RE: DLE 20.....very hard to start (80+ flips)

You can still do better? Once you get to know the engine a little better (get some confidence in it?), with the choke on you can rock/bump the engine up against it's compression, without going through the compression stroke, and get the same amount of fuel drawn through the line as if you had rotated through a complete revolution? 8-10 of these "bumps" cuts the actual "flipping" to a minimum. Just note it's possible to flood if you bump it too many times. The plan is to get it to the point where 2-3 flips with the choke still on will start it. Then of course you'll flip the choke off and flip it a couple more times to actually get it running.

Of note also is that if the engine is set lean on the low speed, that can make it a bear to start as well.
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Old 03-28-2013, 01:04 PM
  #35  
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Default RE: DLE 20.....very hard to start (80+ flips)

Glad it worked for you!
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Old 03-28-2013, 04:06 PM
  #36  
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Default RE: DLE 20.....very hard to start (80+ flips)

ahicks - Your point of gas newbies having most of the gasser problems makes sense, but it's also intuitive. I'm relatively new to gas (a few years) and I feel I'm still learning. But, judging from the reverence I've seen here on RCU, Frank Bowman is someone who knows his RC stuff. And I learned of the reed block issue from him. In fact, on the instruction sheet he sends out with his new rings the first half is on how to change the ring, the second half is about how many Chinese gassers have a faulty \ unsquare reedblock and tells exactly how to fix it.

When I inspected my DLE20's year-old reed block the reed was noticeably off of the block. Could it be a bad reed and not the block? Possible - but I just ordered a new reed block assembly (cheap) and - along with the new ring - the engine runs MUCH better - actually holds a low idle now and is easy to start.
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Old 03-28-2013, 05:19 PM
  #37  
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Default RE: DLE 20.....very hard to start (80+ flips)

Thinking maybe you have more time on these than you're giving yourself credit for?

To me, this mentality of assuming that the valves are causing all of this hard starting, bad idling, BURBLING, makes about as much sense as some comments made regarding the #4 ignition? The fact it was junk and should be replaced because it wasn't possible to make the engine run right with the stock module? That comment was made by some pretty credible people as well? Many of us knew however, those comments did not account for the HUNDREDS of guys flying them successfully, having a blast with them? That's my only point. Trying to caution those that may not know any better to try and not jump to inaccurate (internet) conclusions....

Anyway, just sayin....

Good to hear you've got yours running better!
-Al
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Old 03-28-2013, 05:48 PM
  #38  
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Default RE: DLE 20.....very hard to start (80+ flips)

Al - I only looked at the reed block as a possible cause after lots of other troubleshooting (as you can see - I was already replacing the ring!) , not to mention endless attempts at tuning. I'm not suggesting to anyone this is the first thing to look at, though, if you're engine is off it's pretty easy to check. btw - I did also change out my EI to the inexpensive HobbyKing replacement. And now the idle does come down quickly. So who knows which change fixed my issue. And I'm not surprised that the DLE qualilty \ problems are not consistent. After all, they're not DA. I'm just putting out my experience for anyone having similar issues.

That's what these forums are for right? Glad to be amount the DLE 20 working!

Mike
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Old 03-28-2013, 10:17 PM
  #39  
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Default RE: DLE 20.....very hard to start (80+ flips)


ORIGINAL: ahicks

Thinking maybe you have more time on these than you're giving yourself credit for?

To me, this mentality of assuming that the valves are causing all of this hard starting, bad idling, BURBLING, makes about as much sense as some comments made regarding the #4 ignition? The fact it was junk and should be replaced because it wasn't possible to make the engine run right with the stock module? That comment was made by some pretty credible people as well? Many of us knew however, those comments did not account for the HUNDREDS of guys flying them successfully, having a blast with them? That's my only point. Trying to caution those that may not know any better to try and not jump to inaccurate (internet) conclusions....

Anyway, just sayin....

Good to hear you've got yours running better!
-Al
You'll never no how little I really care.
BC
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Old 03-29-2013, 12:55 AM
  #40  
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Default RE: DLE 20.....very hard to start (80+ flips)

Is anyone using a primer bulb to squirt some gas into the intake prior to starting? That's a common technique used here to start 2 stroke farm equipment. They put a small hole in the plastic air filter housing and give a quick squirt.
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Old 03-29-2013, 07:04 AM
  #41  
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Default RE: DLE 20.....very hard to start (80+ flips)


ORIGINAL: vertical grimmace

OK, so could someone explain this reed block modification? I am curious about this one now.
Look here in the PTE thread. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_10...25/key_/tm.htm. I have a short scribble on page 22, post 537 and take it back up in post 604, page 25. Onmy PTE36R, the whole reed block was leaking, evidenced by bubbles around the contactareas around the carbwhen running.

I found similar issues in one of my DLE55's a couple years ago and in the DLE35RA reed housing a month ago. In fact the 35RA's housing was sanded concave by the factory and the reeds simply sat above the concavity, After sanding the reed housing flat, the simplest way I found to check for good reed to housing seal is to drip 1 drop of light oil on the edge of the reed. It should wick quickly and evenly all round the sealing surface

And guys, please don't fret taking the rear carb off these engines. It's not a big deal. If you want the most out of these small gassies, you've got to learn to diagnose and fix it yourself
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Old 03-29-2013, 07:09 AM
  #42  
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Default RE: DLE 20.....very hard to start (80+ flips)

Your last sentence is likely the wisest thing I've ever read on RCU.
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Old 03-30-2013, 11:53 AM
  #43  
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Default RE: DLE 20.....very hard to start (80+ flips)

With regard to the suggestion that the Chinese engines come with hard rings that need to be replaced, I respectfully disagree. I talked to Valley View RC right after I got my first DLE20 and they told me that this had been fixed and no benefit would be realized by changing them out. It took only about 5 flips to start mine out of the box and with minor adjustments it ran fine. I think too many people read these forums and then go about changing things without first trying to use the engine. How much power does an engine need to have? For minor, and I mean minor, performance increases people seem to be going to extremes. This is a great little engine just as is for what it is.
cheers,
Andy
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Old 03-30-2013, 12:33 PM
  #44  
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Default RE: DLE 20.....very hard to start (80+ flips)

Have you tried a Bowman ring?
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Old 03-30-2013, 12:36 PM
  #45  
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Default RE: DLE 20.....very hard to start (80+ flips)

I have a DLE 20 in my Pulse 125 that would NEVER start by hand on the first start of the day. I installed a Bowman ring and did the reed valve block mod and I have write-ups for both, with lots of pictures.

DLE 20: Bowman ring installation
DLE 20: Gasket and reed surface lapping
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Old 03-30-2013, 12:39 PM
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Default RE: DLE 20.....very hard to start (80+ flips)


ORIGINAL: grosbeak

I have a DLE 20 in my Pulse 125 that would NEVER start by hand on the first start of the day. I installed a Bowman ring and did the reed valve block mod and I have write-ups for both, with lots of pictures.

DLE 20: Bowman ring installation
DLE 20: Gasket and reed surface lapping
Did it start first flip after the mods?

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Old 03-30-2013, 01:27 PM
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Default RE: DLE 20.....very hard to start (80+ flips)


ORIGINAL: Lifer

Have you tried a Bowman ring?
Why would I the engine runs fine?
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Old 03-30-2013, 02:15 PM
  #48  
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Default RE: DLE 20.....very hard to start (80+ flips)


ORIGINAL: oldtyme


ORIGINAL: Lifer

Have you tried a Bowman ring?
Why would I the engine runs fine?
Ring seal effects crankcase compression, suction at hand prop speeds
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Old 03-30-2013, 03:19 PM
  #49  
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Default RE: DLE 20.....very hard to start (80+ flips)

TGK, you can lead a pilot to a plane but cant makehim fly!, More rings for us!! I just got 4 rings from Frank B, today in the mail.
Jason
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Old 03-30-2013, 04:07 PM
  #50  
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Default RE: DLE 20.....very hard to start (80+ flips)

And my stone stock engines just keep chugging along.....
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