marksp

My Feedback: (9)

Yeah, Ray licensed his design to Saito for the new gas radials (FG-60R3 & FG-19R3). Sadly they chose to leave 84's and 33's as is.

FYI - while Saito's implementation solves the fuel distribution issue, they designed too much intake plenum volume. Ray offers a mod to address this and a carb mod for the FG-60R3 which combine to generate 800 more RPM on the spec 22 x 10 prop.

Cheers

deadstick79

New here Folks,
Great Forum!
I have a new FG 60 with the Keleo ring still unopened! I've read thru this thread and several others and have learned that this radial is a whole new beast compared to the big 2-strokers!
Has anyone considered using the Walbro and adapter offered by Morris Mini Motors? One sure advantage is the needles
Any disadvantages?
Thanks,
Dan

Blair K.

Hi Dan, radials dont have a suitable crank case pulse to operate walbro style carbs very well so my experience is an electric fuel pump is needed or a crank driven pulse generator.

I did have a walbro with a radial and did get good results but it can be a lot or work too.

BK.

deadstick79

Thanks Blair,
Then I take it that a nipple in the exhaust ring and pressurizing the tank wouldn't be enough?
Dan

Blair K.

It wont do for a walbro, they need a definitive pulse from negative to positive like a 2 stroke does. Trust me I tried for months to get around it and electric fuel pump or a single tap off one cylinder inlet with a spring inside your diaphragm will work. I simply couldn't get enough back pressure to cause enough positive pressure in the tank. If you get enough back pressure then exhaust will rob more than your carby upgrade will gain��

Cheers BK

SrTelemaster150

How about muffler pressure with an inlet check on the tank line? Similar to what guys are doing with the Cline regulators on Saito 4-strokes.

cathurga

Hey All,

I have been reading this thread with interest, and I took the plunge recently and bought one of Saito FG60 R3's. I intend to put it in a 84" CY Models Bearcat in the future, but for now it is going into an El Cheapo Yak 55M. I would like to run it in and get it running smoothly in a plane that does not show the tendencies of a warbird. No 3D stuff, just fly it around, inverted, some loops and a little knife edge.....as I said, no 3D..LOL

Ok, so between Hpergm, Johnni and Blair, inter alia, there is some really good information on the running in process. I have been through about 2.5L of 15:1 Redline Oil and pump gas. I noted with interest the advantage of rotating the engine through the break in process, in order to get the lower cylinders firing while it is in the rich stage. I started the break in by leaning the bench as suggested by hpergm, but it became difficult to do on my own. It had about 1.5 liters doing that, while at full throttle and slurpy rich, just on 4K rpm. Then when I was on my own, I decided the safest thing to do was just mount it upside down....I was not sure if this would cause trouble with the crankcase breater not being able to vent oil, but the thought occurred to me that it might be good to have the oil sloshing around in there. I had previously dropped about 15-20ml of redline oil into the breather.
While running it upside down, the top cylinder (now at the bottom, just would not fire at all...it was cool to the touch pretty much the whole time. I had its exhaust tube running into a pan that was just filling with oil. Soooooo, I decided to try the following ( I know some of you will cringe at the thought), but I started to lean it off at about 2000rpm, until the bottom cylinder started firing, you could see it trying, it was just at the point where the it was spluttering, and starting to warm up. Then I alternately removed a plug cap from the top two cyls (2 and 3) so they they too were running fuel mix through, without firing, this let them cool and kept the engine rpm low enough not to dry anything out. I know that this cannot be good for the ignition module, which is why I am sure some of you are cringing! I don't think it has done any damage.....I hope.

So another liter went through it like that, and it seems to be running well, and is definitely lube up. The oil has run down the pushrod tubes, and it is turning over smoothly. I noted that when I was leaning it up with a cap disconnected, I was able to lean it up to about one turn from closed on the HS needle....this seems very lean. I have not touched the LS needle during running. And only after I stopped it, did I check the number of turns, and it was about 5 3/4' turns open, from a closed position. I see some people are running this engine with the HS at about 1.5 turns open, and the LS at around 6, is this right?
I am going to install it in the plane, and then start getting the best settings. I am not a power/speed junkie, and I prefer to run in a rich environment, rather than lean. What is the best way to start the tuning process, I see that the LS needle carries the bulk of the effect on tuning.

BTW, for running in, I was using a 20x10 prop, and although I know it is a little small for this engine, I find that smaller props help with minimising stress, as long as you don't WRING the engine out with an undersized prop....as mentioned, I never went over 4K rpm. I will be putting a 22x10 on it for its tuning and first flight.

Thanks to those who went before, and made all your findings available, very much appreciated.

Andy

chorner

The best thing you can do with any engine is run it properly tuned. Not too rich, not too lean. The best thing you can do for break-in, is to saturate the engine on the first run with a very rich mixture and lots of oil. Past that, you're not doing any good running the engine cold and you can actually do more damage than good by running it this way for extended periods. You need heat to properly "break-in" engines...

The other thing I would highly recommend is if you're running 2 stroke oil in this engine, since it's not a methanol engine you won't have any castor... and 2 stroke gas oil is meant to be used in applications where the fuel and oil is brought directly in through the crank, and hits the bearings and other mating surfaces BEFORE making its way up into the cylinder. So for that reason, it's best to use something that has some Zinc and other phosphates that effectively "stick" to the mating components sort of like castor oil does in a meth. engine. If running Redline, I'd buy some break-in additive from them to add to your oil... or, as Ray English recommends in Saito gas engines, to run Morgans Cool Power oil... as guess what: it contains zinc and phosphates, unlike basic all synthetic 2 stroke oil.

cathurga

Chorner, valuable information, and it makes perfect sense regarding the 2C oil. I see some people have droppers ATF into their crankcase as a lube. Is this wise or not? I live in Dubai so getting any decent oil like Morgan's or similar, is really difficult. If it weren't for a local cart track, redline would be rare too.
What can you recommend that is more 'readily' available. Shipping oils and paints in is always a problem here...

Blair K.

Whatever oil you can get your hands on you can monitor its suitability by checking your plugs regularly and also take time to look into an exhaust port and see if your getting an aggressive buildup of wet carbon on the stem of your exhaust valves.

Klotz R50 builds up at an incredible rate but we found Klotz 200 is quite acceptable.

Cheers Blair

chorner

Cathurga no idea, but the best oils are ones that are ester based. Ask around, but RedLine is ester based if you can get it so it's a very good oil to use. I use it myself, and just add some of the aforementioned break-in additive for the zinc and phosphates that help lubricate the conrods and bearing etc.

chorner

mark are you running this mod and do you actually obtain 800 more rpm? That's over 1HP increase in performance. I contacted Ray and he said 500rpm... not so sure it's worth another $285 plus shipping on a $1200 engine for a max of 500rpm increase.

Trying to to decide myself but it seems 1 part cash grab, 1 (smaller) part tweaking for a bit more power. He's mentioned he's done over 1,500 engines now... that's a good wad of cash based his costs between the 33, 60 and 84 radials.

deadstick79

How would Amsoil do? Should I use it to pre-oil the engine parts before starting also?
Thnx,
Dan

hpergm

I think I have read somewhere that ester-based oils are destined for 2St injection, not premix so much because they will attack the NBR O-rings over time. What's your take on this?

cathurga

I am not sure myself, but I and many others have been using redline on 2C engines for years, and it has not done any harm to the carbs on them, but I know the saito carbs might have more rubber o rings than the walbros

chorner

Not too sure hpergm. I second the above statement however, that RedLine is often used in many pre-mix applications (and a lot for RC engine use as well). I would have to think Saito would use compatible orings for the application knowing that people use both ester and non ester based synthetics (i.e - a fairly wide range of available pre-mix lubricants in use around the world) otherwise they would have a major problem on their hands.

Here's a link on o-ring material types in use, with a colour coding chart near the bottom. Could be useful in some way... but again, I'm sure Saito wouldn't put o-rings that would degrade with the 2 base types of premix oil available:
http://www.greatlakesrubber.com/basic_o.html

cathurga

Hey guys,

A bit quiet in here, these days......

I have a question regarding compression differences in radial engines. At the moment, my FG60-R is not running very well at all. I made the mistake of trying the Walbro conversion, and now trying to get back to stock. I learned my lesson there, and will put my hand up to being stupid.....anyway. Since putting the engine back to stock, it is not running as well as it should. It seems that there is a misfire in the No2 cylinder, and I have looked at all the obvious potential trouble causes like, new plug, checked valve timing etc. I am getting close to an optimal tune on the needles, but it is just not getting full fire on that one cylinder. There is ignition and spark there so it is either too rich or something is causing it to miss. I haven't changed any of the cam timing, so its not there.
I noticed when I took the HT lead off while it was idling, the revs dropped and it ran a little rougher, but not as much as I would think. Compared to when I took No1 spark lead off, with the others running, you could notice a much bigger loss of rev.
I took all the plugs out and replaced each one, one at a time, and noticed that the compression on No1 is noticeably more than the other two....this is just turning it by prop, so very much a 'feeling' thing...it just seems so.
That same plug was quite 'carbonned' up after running and I am thinking that either there is carbon buildup on one or both valves...I looked down the plug hole and didn't see any carbon build up on te piston....

Bit confused....I am going to try some new plugs and make some other small adjustments.

Fulcrum2111

Hello today I have tried to start the engine it is a 7-35 evolution with the rcexl ignition, running on methanol. I have used a custom blend with 6% oil and 6% nitromethane and 88% pure methanol. I set in the day the timing to 30 degrees BTDC. I first tried by hand but couldnt start it. The engine primes well, though. Then I tried a starter. I have set the low needle 2 turns out and the high 2.5 turns out as the manual states. When I turn the engine with the starter I hear it pop and smells like some burned oil, the exhaust and cylinders are warm but the engine wont startand keep turning by itself.
Can you help me with the problem? Is it possible I have set the timing incorrectly or I am missing something else?
Regards.

RichardGee

My Feedback: (156)

HOW were you able to set up an electronic ignition, properly timed for 7 spark plugs?
This certainly sounds like an ignition timing problem.

SrTelemaster150

The magnets are set up at 51.5* to fire each cylinder on every revolution. The firing order is 1-3-5-7-2-4-6 so there is a waste spark on the exhaust stroke.

One only needs to time #1 cylinder & the rest will be in time, but the #1 cylinder must be set on the magnet that follows the reverse polarity sequencing trigger magnet.

If the #1 cylinder is set up on the wrong magnet it will be out of time.

Blair K.

I had the same error with my 5 cylinder saito, the error came from me trying to sequence the coil or lead numbers to the firing sequence.

A fools mistake.

The firing coil sequence needs to follow the cylinder number not the firing order as it basically has redundant spark as it completes 2 revolutions (power, exhaust, power, exhaust,power) as it fires spark.

Dont know if thats the problem for you but it exactly the issue I had too.

Cheers
Bk

deadstick79

Hi All,
How many of y'all have the Saito FG84 without Ray's mods and are happy with it?
Thanks,
DAn

slither

I was going to get the FG84R3, but then I went with the FG60R3 once I found out it had Ray's mods built into it already... saved the money and hassle of converting. Seems like a lot of guys were going that route, at the time, too...

SJN

Love mine stock. No issues with it at all. Running castrol Power 1 racing oil in mine.

marksp

My Feedback: (9)

Curious to see if the Ray's designs made there way into the new FG-90R3??? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_9OM8eCGV4