azuz

Hello Members

I just recently acquired a corsair warbird, Hangar 9 kit I think, along with a bad saito Fg84 r3, well the owner told me that it was modified in US by Ray English and came with the Keleo muffler and engine mount. Well so i remember seeing him fly this plane and he was having trouble with the medium to high throttle with power cutting down at full power. therefore he put it up on a bench for tuning and later faced a similar problem while in AIR and therefore it was later understood that the engine is seized, and therefore it was shelved, so well I want to further investigate if the assumption was right and what is wrong with it and will be opening it up for inspection.

so i am pretty new when it comes to opening four strokes, but what the heck lets do it........... so will post pics of how a ray english engine looks like from the inside. does anyone know of a thread or video how to open and inspect a saito

Regards

ForcesR

azuz; do a Google search for FG84R3 Ray English Modification videos, it will give you a link to the Intake modification video which is 10:13min long and another video for step by step build for the FG84R3, that is 14:56mins long.

Roger

azuz

Thanks Roger

I managed to open up the engine to find out that all the three pistons and crank rods are damaged along with the crank case, so upon further investigation and parts price list check its not worth rebuilding and this engine is sadly a expensive paper weight..........but I will go check out the videos

dubd

Do you feel confident that the damage was because of Ray's updates?

jws_aces

My Feedback: (33)

[QUOTE=Condor060;12264344]I hope you are not talking about my FW190 Yes it was overheated the first time using the oil (Cool Power) with no alchol premium gas after following Ray English's instruction that came with motor said to use. No baffles and on the first flight bang. It exploded inside. I took the blame for that one.
the second time after paying 500.00 more to fix the first one and was told I also was running to many RPM the first time. it popped again with a 24x10 prop it blew while cruising at Joe Nall on the second flight with temps well below 200 degrees after landing.

Now I have a bone stock motor with 3 gallons of fuel run thru it and it turns 6800+ rpm on the telemetry in the air with a 24x12 prop. I said I wouldn't get in to this but facts are facts. I am using everyday pump gas with redline at 16 to1 mix. I know Fred you told me it would't last but I sorry to say It's still hauling the mail better than ever. OH yea set the record straight I haven't had a failure with redline oil. So I would guess from your comments that there is another guy having failure with FW-190 and Redline oil?

I flew it at War birds over Delaware this past July when it was 102 degrees and it didn't break.

I too read what you had posted and spent money with Ray English based on your posting and now you are not telling the facts. I too have extensive experience in racing and I am sorry but when ever I rebuilt or modified a engine it was for more power and durability. So far I have not seen that in Ray's mods. In fact and I quote he told me quote "5800 rpm on the ground was too many on a modified engine" end quote. I tack the Horizon Hobby demo plane that had over 200 flights on it at Joe Nall and it tack 6200 on the ground. I saw it fly at least 20 times.

Sorry for long read but I feel like both sides of story should be told. I have meet many guys that have RE engines and have not told them they shouldn't fly them. I told them I wasn't sure what was the cause. I have no axe to grind with Ray. I feel like the people here should know the facts before spending 2500.00+ to learn the hard way that I did.

I understand how you feel and I too was saying the same thing while I was trying to make the motor work but enough is enough and I knew the unmodified motor would do just fine and it does. Here is a youtube video from 2 weeks ago at my home field you can see it turns a lot of RPMs and I have flown it during the summer in the heat with no issues.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7kIlT71QW8&feature=youtu.be What I have learned that I hope can help others is Baffles are a must on closed up cowls like the FW-190. Also don't be afraid of running it rich. The motors like the extra fuel for power and cooling.

dubd

Any idea if the engine can be reverted back after a Ray English mod? At this point I'd rather go with a 90R3 than take a chance with the 83.

jws_aces

My Feedback: (33)

I don't think so. My failures were in the rods. I wouldn't try to reverse that if you have one already done. I also would like to know on the 90cc if the rod was modified or not. I don't want to give a opinion here on the mods. I only want to state facts and not get into a battle over who is right or wrong. Just wanted to give out the facts and let you make your own judgements. Of course if I had read a post by someone else like the one I just posted I personally wouldn't have spent all that money and just started out with the stock in the box one.

As you know DUB after reading what you posted on your F-14 and FEJ I didn't make a purchase thankfully because of your facts you posted on your F14. You saved me and many others a lot of headaches.

Sorry for your lose i know how you feel.

dubd

Jeff, thanks for sharing your experience. Sorry you had to go through so much trouble with your 83R3.

TomH

My Feedback: (4)

Hi Jeff,
I got a question/request please. I followed for the past few years the saga of the 84, and I waited until the R60 was released because it was to incorporate some of the RE mods. I have put one flight on it, then winter came so it sits for better weather. It is in a Extreme Flight 91" Yak. as you know it has a very large round cowl and I opened up the entire front of the cowl. then I opened up the pipe tunnel, removed some covering as the exit air. I would like, if you got pics to see how you baffled your engine. Mine is not baffled. I should have by the end of the week, a temp sensor for my 18MZ. I am sport flyer only, @ 63 its just about having fun. I am running the cool power oil, although I use redline in everything else. I also have the Keleo ring, I follow the 60r3 thread daily and some are wondering if the Ring is maybe causing some issues based on how tight it is to fit the tubes in the jugs. to me I would think they would relax and seat in with a few heat cycles of the engine, but this is not my area of expertise's
tom.

jws_aces

My Feedback: (33)

Number one thing on the baffles. I got mine from Ray but they are on the keleo website.
http://keleo-creations.biz/store/ind...dex&cPath=4_13

They should be very easy to install on your cowl.
here is a video of the mine just before the second engine popped with the baffles. you can see the position in the video. I haven't change them with my stock motor.
https://goo.gl/photos/WHsvYoxp7syGqeRt6 As far as temp sensor that is a good idea. I used a laser temp gun. I tune my stock one with cowl off and watched the temps with the gun. That is how I came up to my needle setting.

I really don't know what the exhaust ring or how it could be an issue other than mixture setting due to change in back pressure.

Lastly FYI a good friend that went thru the exact same issues with a modded motor was using Cool Power oil also. I found out later that we both were using the same oil purchased from the same distributor. The reason I bring it up it could have been the problem. Not sure. Even Ray questions the oil after receiving the engine back the second time. So if you did get it straight from Morgan fuels I would be leary.


I still have plenty not being used. I bought 2 gallons.

TomH

My Feedback: (4)

I see yours is Blue, mine is bright neon green, I called Morgan on that because the Saito instructions say "blue" cool power oil. the "blue" dye is what the send to Australia. I have not talked to Ray this month, he is converting a OS radial I have to ign. Man I don't know what to do now as far as the oil goes, I wonder if RE is changing his mind. I'm going to place the temp probe on the #1 cyl. since that runs the leanest or has the greater chance to run leaner. I'm using a Zoar 22x10 and I think I'm going to maybe look and dialing throttle a little back off full throttle setting. might get a rpm sensor as well. been wanting to try some of the telemetry stuff. my motor after some break-in adjustments and first flights, seems to have a fair amount of oil that drips from the crankcase tap. its black as night. thanks for the info.

jws_aces

My Feedback: (33)

You know that is a good question. Mine gallons look more green than blue also.

Now Fred was right about one motor breaking after using redline. It was my friend that also installed the rebuilt motor from Ray. His broke his and got it back at Nall. I was told he tried to fly it there using redline instead and the motor still broke on the first flight. I was told it was way to lean on the setting and it got hot.

So i really don't know if it really is the oil or needle settings. I just know I flying and not sending my motor in for rebuilds and spending more money.

TomH

My Feedback: (4)

Yea, I'm running mine rich, when I install the temp sensor that should tell me a lot, otherwise I don't have much use for that $50.00 jug of oil so I guess I will use it.I got a set of pipes on order with Keleo for my os 320 4 cyl. so I got them to add the baffles and ship at the same time. thanks for the link.
Tom
Powhatan, Va.

azuz

I couldn't take a call on that as i am not a expert, now that u said it, looks like a possibility !! I am not sure, but i am guessing as there is a ball bearing fixed in the crank rod as per the videos i saw which were recommended by roger, now this particular ball bearing was missing i couldnt find it any where inside.......Also as the crank rods attached to the crank shaft are chewed up and one is missing half rod. So it points to the hole/joint of the crank rod it must have broken off. These are my assumption based on the little knowledge !! The experts can analyse it better will try to post some pictures. Soon. But my friend did complain that Ray took some time to send this engine back to him not as promised.

I was thinking of upgrading the engine to 90r3 but cant seem to find enough feedback or videos on that engine. Looks like not many buying it given the 83r3 nightmare. Plus dont want another head ache engine......especially with the short time we have on a field. Hate to admit was thinking of a dle 2 stroke on it but it will spoil the feel of the warbird. Will look for another 4 stroke with a similar realistic sound for the 60cc corsair, any suggestion?

jws_aces

My Feedback: (33)

AZUZ,

the mod that was done to my engines from Ray had a bushing installed where the main rod connected to the Crank Pin. I don't think there is enough room for any kind of roller bearing. Yes that would be great. Infact what worries me is the installation of the bushing may have created a weakness in the Rod.

I not a professional at metals either. I just would be interested also to see if Satio incorporated that mod in he 90cc?

Here is a picture of mine after it popped at Joe Nall cruising at half throttle for about 5 mins. read a 165 degress when we got to it after the dead stick landing. I was using the Cool Power oil.

DHC6

My Feedback: (6)

Thats precisely what happened to mine.... I was originally using klotz, but found it pretty dry on the inside so I switched to redline oil. When I looked inside after it failed it was coated in oil. That's not to say that the oil was not the culprit, just what I observed when using the two oils. Mine looked exactly the same as yours when I opened it up. It's now a big friggin paper weight. Mine also had all the RE mods, was running great till the connecting gave out.

jws_aces

My Feedback: (33)

That is what my first looked like also but I forgot to take pictures. As I said I really don't want to point any figures even though I have spent the money and been thru a lot to get to where I am at now. Flying and happy. I did a lot of reading and gathering of info on this motor before I bought it. Yes Peter Goldsmith of HH first question to me at Joe Nall was " I bet you been reading on the internet" I now completely understand that statement. My answer of course was yes.

Live and learn. Now back to my opionion of what is really happening. I must stress it is a opionion not a fact.

I personally feel like after looking back on the ones that have been successful stock or with mod. The key to making it live is giving it enough fuel period.

I think the mod rod can and does lead to a better chance of failure compared to the stock setup. Why because I know of guys that have had the stock motors overheat and seize up but not break rods like mine. I have seen planes flying with stock motors on Klutz and redline that have well over 50 flights.

The one that really makes me think this is a guy had a stock motor in a Valley Aviation FW-190 that he figured out how to get it run good was opening up the needles way beyond factory settings. He had a YouTube video of it running in his house and tuning it. Later flying it and he had a 36LB bird. I was wanting to fly a 102" p-47 with it but change my mind and did the TF fw190 after seeing the others online and how fast they flew..stock motors.

My advice if you want to fly this engine is it make sure you baffle properly to make sure the airflow over all cyclinders include the top one if you have cowl and open the needles to allow more fuel for cooling and performance. Don't tune it like a 2 stroke. give time to break in properly like the manual shows. One last thing that I read about but didn't do that might help is install a pump like used on the bigger radials.

It is the coolest sounding motor next to a Moki. That is my next project.

Chris Nicastro

My Feedback: (3)

I also have some experience with the 84 and RE mods.
The first one seized in flight too. Prop was a Mezjlik 24x10 Carbon, 92 non-E gas with Coolpower oil direct from Morgan mixed per RE's notes. Afterwards he said the engine over revved because it was under propped.
I first flew another guys 84 which was stock in a H9 Corsair and found it to be prone to stumbling in the mid range. I watched the Condor video about the engine before flying it and understood the intake mod would make the mid range smoother and the cylinder temps more even. I was sold and so was my friend. After flying the stock engine and not feeling very confident in leaving ours stock we sent it to Ray so that the mid range would be smooth, the temps would be even and the bushing mod would allow for more RPM and power.
Well the engine response is great, the temps are even but the engine techs lower than stock. Now I'm using a Xoar 24x14 wood prop and I flew it a few times before the end of the season last year. Since then I've installed an onboard tach with telemetry and this spring we will see actual numbers in flight. Even with a little more pitch the engine seems to be really reving in the air which has me concerned. I did try the 24x12 prop first and quickly changed to the 14 pitch.

So in my opinion based on practice I'd say the intake mod is worth it but the rod bushing is not.
Currently I'm using Klotz Technoplate oil and 92 non-E gas.

I hope the new 90 has the intake mod at least and the little bit more displacement couldn't hurt either...

TomH

My Feedback: (4)

"Peter Goldsmith of HH first question to me at Joe Nall was " I bet you been reading on the internet" I now completely understand that statement. My answer of course was yes."
Hey JWS, I find that interesting, I followed and read all the 84R threads/post, in fact it was the reason I waited and bought the 60R. Now granted you have to be the judge yourself when it comes to what you read, but I feel it saved me a lot of pain and $. I still follow the 60r whenever someone has posted and there has been a post or two on a few failures but not like the 84. I think one of the failures was the jugs breaking at the bolts to the block. I will take your a advice on baffling, I will make sure that I'm running on the richer settings and if I have to in order to keep RPM's in line, I will adjust travel on throttle. Because at the end of the day that is one assume sound. I don't know if you have read any of the 60R3 post, you might want to give it a try. When I talked to Ray two weeks ago I asked if he had a 90R yet to look at and go thru, he said he did not.
Tom

jws_aces

My Feedback: (33)

Tom,

I really have no intentions of spending any more time on this. I was simply replying to a statement I felt was incorrect about my motor and also want to share my experiences with the 84cc engine. What I took from Peter's statement was the internet was filled with incorrect information on the Satio 84cc radial. I don't know if he was implying the information was for financial gains or real experiences. from what was told to me is that the reason for no mods done to the 84cc by satio but were being performed on the smaller ones were due to copyrights. I don't know for sure but feel like with what I have learn that is the reason for the 90cc. Satio could include the modifications similar if not the same as MR. English with infringing on anyone's copy rights. Just a guess not a fact.

Again I am not here to pick a fight over what happen with my motor. If so I would do it in a court room not here. If you don't care for my information move on and ignore it.

SJN

Have you guys seen the new 5 cylinder 85cc radial :-) ?

Displacement: 85 ccm

Speed: 800 – 5500 min-1 (propeller 24/10 to 26/12)

Ignition supply voltage: 4-9 V (recommended source 5cell NiMH or 2cell LiPo)

Spark plugs: ME-8

Fuel: gasoline

Lubrication: mixture of oil and gasoline 1:50

Mass: 3,2 kg including ignition!



http://www.retromotory.cz/en/products-page/

http://www.retromotory.cz/wp-content...structions.pdf

http://shop.fun-modellbau.de/de/Aire...-zylinder.html


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ixB43XVhzs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ze2XrUCNkNY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQ6inuWFxog

ForcesR

That radial would fit nicely inside the cowl of a TF FW-190; it sounds identical to a Moki too and is priced at $2,560 USD.

SJN

Yea, price is a bit steep, but it sure looks and sounds nice.

azuz

JWS_aces

This is what my engine looks like from inside in fact worse........two of the rods in my case are chewed up till midway. So yeah i can safely assume that the weakness has been created due to this mod,,,,,,

If they have incorporated this mod in the fg90 i think i may not buy and look into some other engines

jws_aces

My Feedback: (33)

I agree