Lifer

My Feedback: (1)

Who is this guy?

Truckracer

My Feedback: (19)

As you more than likely know but for the benefit of others, there have been many different types of mechanical fuel injection systems that have been used for many decades. Two examples would be the constant fuel flow types used in racing and in GA aircraft engines. These flow fuel based on fuel valve position controlled only by throttle position. They get away with these very simple systems because these engines run primarily at fixed position and full throttle settings. Their ability to run over a wide range of throttle settings is very limited and the mixture is pilot adjustable in the case of the aircraft engine or pill adjustable in the case of the race engines. The point here being that there are many different types of fuel injection systems but most / many would not be suitable for our RC engines.

WRK

My Feedback: (2)

As I said before this does not appear to be true fuel injection but more like a smart carburetor, probably could not
be called true throttle body injection either, but still could work very well, you can map throttle position, RPM to give load the
numbers and use a look-up table to deliver the correct air/fuel ratio for the given load point.
With this type of system you don't get all the compensation for other atmospheric variables, some chain saws have used
similar systems.

kmeyers

A Russian guy who has an opinion. That is what this forum is for... is'nt it?

I wonder what the average Russian has to give in labor for 600 dollars US plus taxes and shipping.

Cyberwolf

My Feedback: (4)

Evgeny-armhttp://www.eci.aero/exp/fis_operatingmanualM242.pdf
http://www.competitionplus.com/12_17_2003/fuel_101.html

Truckracer

My Feedback: (19)

The modern aircraft system you reference is pretty much the way GA aircraft fuel injection has worked for decades. It is very simple but also a system that would never work for our RC application. It does however work quite well for an engine that is usually operated for hours on end at fairly constant power settings and loads. The dragster systems are especially interesting as they use extremely high capacity, high pressure pumps to deliver the several gallons of nitro fuel that is used in their sub 4 second runs down the strip.

Back on target, it will be interesting so see how well the Evolution system works and how it evolves in the future.

TimBle

It does not need an O2 sensor for several reasons:
-the engine design parameter is not hinged on stiochiometric AFR. That is a requirementonly to allow emissions controls devices to function as calibrated. It is NOT a necessary function for this system.
- O2 sensors cannot handle high percentage of contaminant in the fuel. It will plug up and fail ver quickly with 2stroke oil in the mix.
- An engine's ECU can determine load, and fuel demand by monitoring throttle position against rpm to determine load. Couple to a mass flow sensor (air intake sensor as described by HH) the ECI algorithm will determine correct fuel metering and can be designed to erroe correct and either slightly overfuel or underfuel (non prefered).

This engine is not flying long duration missions carrying relatively heavy payloads to the airframe. It is a toy airplane engine designed to take tuning out of the hands of Joe Soap.

Lastly, comparison with methanol fuel injection is comparing apples and oranges. Methanol fueled engines have high oil percentage and the oil presents problems to fuel metering

rexbirk

I do not think kmyers meant his post as an insult. I view it as a compliment. We are all modelers after all. I think he was pointing out that you in Russia make a large financial commitment, as many of us do to our hobby.

Sometimes we do not understand each others languages enough and this causes us to make false judgements.

Personally, I love interacting with people from other countries. Many times I have found very useful and innovative information from them.

rexbirk

I meant to quote this post. Sorry.

kochj

The converted nitro-to-gas China brand Evolution= good track record

I would guess that this will be no different....
Why the heck would one release something that didn't work??
I doubt horizon would want to go through this again. (1st version gas saitos had carb issues)

I think you will be surprised at how well it works....

Truckracer

My Feedback: (19)

I have confidence that Horizon will work out any initial bugs in this design and face facts, this is a new product from the ground up ... including the base engine the EFI system is mounted on. There are bound to be some problems with this or any new design. Even the beloved DA engines have had their fair share of necessary "tweeks" needed as they have released new designs.

As for companies releasing products that either don't work or don't live up to expectations and with no reflection on Horizon, our hobby has been full of bad products over the years. I could list dozens without having to strain my brain very much.

Cyberwolf

My Feedback: (4)

If an O-2 Sensor is not needed, why do each and every car built in today's world have at least one and some times as many as three?

SJN

To get best millage, and save the world :-) The engine will run just fine even though the mixture is a little off.

Try disconnect it from your car. You will get an engine management light, and you will probably be able to feel that it runs slightly diffrent.....but not much
But I garantee thay you millage will drop :-)

av8tor1977

My Feedback: (6)

An oxygen sensor is definitely NOT needed for the operation of a fuel injection system. An O2 sensor is a trim device. Once the engine is warmed up, the system goes into what we call "closed loop" and that is when the O2 sensor goes to work. It makes very fine, (and fast) tuning adjustments to maintain an exact fuel/air ratio to optimize emissions, (smog), and fuel mileage. When you floor the accelerator, the engine drops out of "closed loop", and the O2 sensor is not used. Then the computer in the FI system reverts to a map of how much fuel it should be allowing into the engine. This map is also used to run the engine during a cold start, as the O2 sensor cannot work until thoroughly warmed up. As for practical use, you could disconnect the O2 sensor, and you virtually could not tell a difference in how the engine ran. It would just get somewhat reduced fuel mileage.

Also, a Mass Airflow Sensor is not needed for fuel injection. Fuel injections systems without a Mass Airflow Sensor rely on a MAP sensor, (Manifold Absolute Pressure), to supply needed info on engine operation in order to supply the correct amount of fuel to the engine.

And lastly, high fuel pressure is not needed. A port fuel injection uses high pressure, usually somewhere around 40 psi +/-. But throttle body fuel injection only needs 9 to 12 psi for most systems.

Having said all that, I think this new system is cool, and hope it filters down into the hands of us poor boys someday soon! No engine is harder to supply with a perfect fuel mix than a two stroke, and fuel injection would be great to have. Especially if it were user tunable.

AV8TOR

skillet92

{ Also, a Mass Airflow Sensor is not needed for fuel injection. Fuel injections systems without a Mass Airflow Sensor rely on a MAP sensor, (Manifold Absolute Pressure), to supply needed info on engine operation in order to supply the correct amount of fuel to the engine.

And lastly, high fuel pressure is not needed. A port fuel injection uses high pressure, usually somewhere around 40 psi +/-. But throttle body fuel injection only needs 9 to 12 psi for most systems.

Having said all that, I think this new system is cool, and hope it filters down into the hands of us poor boys someday soon! No engine is harder to supply with a perfect fuel mix than a two stroke, and fuel injection would be great to have. Especially if it were user tunable.

AV8TOR[/QUOTE]

But you do require one are the other. You have to have a MAP sensor at the minimum, without one the engine will not run with fuel injection or throttle body. You are right about the O2 sensors, cars run all the time with them disconnected or broke, but a MAF or MAP sensor is

required. And if it requires at least 9-12 psi where in our free flow tanks are we getting that. The engine does not look to have a pump. I think it is neat but not really a need. What is so hard about tuning a 2T engine?

av8tor1977

My Feedback: (6)

I like tuning two strokes. But I would also welcome the opportunity to play with fuel injection on one. I hope they create a retro-fit model and that it can be easily tuned/programmed with a computer.

I like carburetors, and have no problems with them, but do you think I would take the fuel injection off my Vette and put a carb on it?? No way. Fuel injection is way more efficient and costs nothing in power. If the aftermarket systems weren't so dam expensive, I would take the Holley carb off my 450 horsepower big block Blazer and put fuel injection on it in a heartbeat!

AV8TOR

TimBle

But you do require one are the other. You have to have a MAP sensor at the minimum, without one the engine will not run with fuel injection or throttle body. You are right about the O2 sensors, cars run all the time with them disconnected or broke, but a MAF or MAP sensor is

required. And if it requires at least 9-12 psi where in our free flow tanks are we getting that. The engine does not look to have a pump. I think it is neat but not really a need. What is so hard about tuning a 2T engine?[/QUOTE]



9-12psi absolute or gauge. If absolute then those pressures are vacuum since 1atmosphere is about 14psi.


A MAP sensor would be the minimum requirement to obtain a rough volumetric flow. Mass flow would be first prize though

skillet92

AV8TOR I agree that they would be fun to play with and you are right about fuel injection. I had carbed bikes for years and until I bought my Roadliner I never realized how nice a fuel injection system on a bike could be. I will watch these to see how they do and if the initial

testers find them durable I will try one.

SJN

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kWBVg4IHW4

chuckk2

Don't confuse what is needed for an engine to run with what is required by the EPA emission standards.
Generally, a throttle position sensor and ignition timing control/sensor are the minimum. Run well? not necessarily.
Remember that current automobile systems often do not have a mechanical throttle valve connected to the accelerator pedal. They rely on "the computer" to set
fuel, timing, and air flow, based upon the pedal position and other measurable operational conditions.

Truckracer

My Feedback: (19)

Wow, how do my airplanes ever get off the ground with those "wretchedness ignition" Rcexl (or similar) ignitions onboard?

For what they cost, I thought they work quite well. Maybe we can look forward to a better quality reasonably priced alternative out of Russia one day?

SJN

Evgeny, I think the translating program that you are using is making you sound a bit aggressive, and it is offending poeple a little when you read the english translation :-)

I think we need to see this product in action before you can tell how bad it is, and all the faults it has....because there might be a chance that it actualy works fantastic just as simply designed as it is :-)

SJN

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBl1VonkqA4

Beavis

My Feedback: (19)

Pete,

Could one use a 2S A123, or Li-Fe battery (6-6.6V), or does it need the whole 7.4V of a 2S Li-Po? As you know, A123's / Li-Fe's have better discharge curves, are much safer, and more user friendly than Li-Po's.


Thank you in advance,

Pete Bergstrom

It does need a 2S LiPo because the minimum voltage for the overall system is 7.4v.

Pete