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Saito FG-60R3

Old 10-29-2019, 05:56 AM
  #2526  
elmshoot
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Engine cutting out during maneuvering is most likely a plumbing issue.
Put a 12-14 oz tank with a clunk in it. No in line fuel filters. Filter the fuel before it goes into the airplane.
from what I've observed the rotoflow is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
Sparky
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Old 10-29-2019, 03:57 PM
  #2527  
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Thanks Guys, notes taken and will go over it all. Do I need I loop around the top of the tank like on older setups? I do have a filter and will check everything to see whatís changed as I never noticed the ď almost cutoffĒ scenario until this last flight!

I will make the timing ring priority and go over everything while Iím at it! I have been running this engine a little rich in mix and will bring it up a little to reduce the chance of carbon buildup. Appreciate the response and will let you know what I find.

Brad
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Old 10-30-2019, 09:44 AM
  #2528  
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I typically use something like the KUZA tanks, the breather does not extend into the tank so you dont need a loop, as when its inverted, and your overflow pipe is at the bottom of the plane (facing up when inverted) no fuel can get out, and when it rights, the fuel cannot siphon out. I usually chop off the solid clunk and put a felt one in instead. The felt clunks are pretty heavy and always seat at the lowest point. Never had a problem with them on any of my planes including the aerobatics. I agree that the Roto seems to complicate something that is simple and proven over years of RC flying...
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Old 10-31-2019, 10:11 AM
  #2529  
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Full scale aerobatic planes use a flexible clunk (they call it a flopper tube) on their fuel pickup lines pretty much like RC fuel systems do. The system works well so why change it. I have heard of a number of crashes caused by the Rotoflow tank where some part of the tank internals failed.
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Old 11-03-2019, 06:00 AM
  #2530  
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Cathurga

Can you tell me about the negative pressure mod, Was it hard to install and how and when do you drain the oil.
Also I was thinking of getting a 4 blade prop do you have part #'s for the varioprop
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Old 11-03-2019, 11:50 PM
  #2531  
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Nalby,

There are a few ways of doing the mod, and basically they do the same thing, which is use the crankcase void to distribute the air/fuel mix. As it is now, the engine only gets lubrication by what gets blown by the piston rings, hence the high oil content required in the fuel.
The mod circulates the air/fuel through the crankcase, allowing lower oil content, and direct lubrication before combustion. There are a few ways of doing the mod, but two that I know of, Ray English and Modelissme Micromoteurs, require you to send the engine in to them. I think Modelissme replaces the rear seal and then moves the 'drain/breather' from where it is, to the lowest part of the crankcase, to allow for drainage and it also uses less of the crankcase void, as he replaces the open rear seal with a sealed one. There are some advantages to this, but it does mean breaking the engine down to the last bearing to do it. I believe he also offers a service to replace the brass bush with a roller bearing, although that mod might only be for the FG90/84 engines..not sure about that. I dont know what RE's mod does, never seen one.
Morris Mini Motors offers a solution that is basically a new plenum and backplate. His mod also extends the induction tube further into the plenum which means there is very little chance of you ever flooding the engine, and it also seems to provide a more even fuel distribution between the cylinders.. Its easy-peasy to install..
Engine off, exhausts off (not necessary if you are using the stock pipes), rear mounting plate off, rear backplate off and then just replace it with the part Morris sends you. Put it all back together. He also sends you a pipe to block off the breather.
You need to ENSURE that all your seals and gaskets are in order, even on the rocker covers, as the entire engine internals are basically at negative pressure. Air getting in there anywhere will tend the engine to lean...a large enough amount of air gets in, and it will never run properly and will be difficult to tune.
I have not "drained' anyoil out of mine, but I have not done many flights on her, so will get cracking now that the weather is good here, and do a few more runs, then I am going to pull it apart for a full service. If all is ok inside, I will rebuild it and hammer it as much as possible. Since there is a lower oil content required after the mod (30:1) there is going to be less oil in the engine, and some of it is going to burn off. I am expecting a little oil inside the crankcase, but nothing chronic...I hope.

Will report back...

Will get more prop info to you later.
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Old 11-04-2019, 01:48 AM
  #2532  
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Originally Posted by cathurga View Post
Nalby,

There are a few ways of doing the mod, and basically they do the same thing, which is use the crankcase void to distribute the air/fuel mix. As it is now, the engine only gets lubrication by what gets blown by the piston rings, hence the high oil content required in the fuel.
The mod circulates the air/fuel through the crankcase, allowing lower oil content, and direct lubrication before combustion. There are a few ways of doing the mod, but two that I know of, Ray English and Modelissme Micromoteurs, require you to send the engine in to them. I think Modelissme replaces the rear seal and then moves the 'drain/breather' from where it is, to the lowest part of the crankcase, to allow for drainage and it also uses less of the crankcase void, as he replaces the open rear seal with a sealed one. There are some advantages to this, but it does mean breaking the engine down to the last bearing to do it. I believe he also offers a service to replace the brass bush with a roller bearing, although that mod might only be for the FG90/84 engines..not sure about that. I dont know what RE's mod does, never seen one.
Morris Mini Motors offers a solution that is basically a new plenum and backplate. His mod also extends the induction tube further into the plenum which means there is very little chance of you ever flooding the engine, and it also seems to provide a more even fuel distribution between the cylinders.. Its easy-peasy to install..
Engine off, exhausts off (not necessary if you are using the stock pipes), rear mounting plate off, rear backplate off and then just replace it with the part Morris sends you. Put it all back together. He also sends you a pipe to block off the breather.
You need to ENSURE that all your seals and gaskets are in order, even on the rocker covers, as the entire engine internals are basically at negative pressure. Air getting in there anywhere will tend the engine to lean...a large enough amount of air gets in, and it will never run properly and will be difficult to tune.
I have not "drained' anyoil out of mine, but I have not done many flights on her, so will get cracking now that the weather is good here, and do a few more runs, then I am going to pull it apart for a full service. If all is ok inside, I will rebuild it and hammer it as much as possible. Since there is a lower oil content required after the mod (30:1) there is going to be less oil in the engine, and some of it is going to burn off. I am expecting a little oil inside the crankcase, but nothing chronic...I hope.

Will report back...

Will get more prop info to you later.
Thanks a lot, I was thinking of ordering mmm intake mod, and now it seems like a worth wild upgrade
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Old 11-04-2019, 03:25 AM
  #2533  
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Nalby, I would say that it is, although I havent really tested it to its full, as I have not been flying a lot in the summer time over here. I did see that the guy from Modelissme had an FG84 converted, and after 400 flights, he opened it up and it seems that it is doing its job! Remember the FG84 didnt even have a bronze bush on the main crank. JieM, a contrubutor to this thread, did his own mod, and it has done a LOT of time too.

Its MY humble opinion that the timing mod, and the intake mod are all you need to make this a reliable, good engine. And of course adding a collector ring adds to its appeal...!
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Old 11-04-2019, 03:46 AM
  #2534  
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Originally Posted by cathurga View Post
Nalby, I would say that it is, although I havent really tested it to its full, as I have not been flying a lot in the summer time over here. I did see that the guy from Modelissme had an FG84 converted, and after 400 flights, he opened it up and it seems that it is doing its job! Remember the FG84 didnt even have a bronze bush on the main crank. JieM, a contrubutor to this thread, did his own mod, and it has done a LOT of time too.

Its MY humble opinion that the timing mod, and the intake mod are all you need to make this a reliable, good engine. And of course adding a collector ring adds to its appeal...!
sounds good, ordered the intake from Morris, already have the timing ring and the meier exhaust ring.dont know if I'll get to fly the mods until spring (snow expected on fri)but you never know with weather
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Old 11-04-2019, 07:36 AM
  #2535  
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Just checking in to report that I haven't got much to report! We had a "Internal combustion Only" Fly in event this last w/e. Sad to report that the "Junkyard Dawg" (P47/FG-60 combo) ran/flew absolutly perfectly all day. First start was even a one flip event! I've decided I need to get it in the shop, tear it down to the last nut and bolt, and see why it's running so damd good! (No I'm not... lol)

It was a good thing I bought that slightly used FG-90 that I put on a Ziroli AT-6 or I'd have nothing to tinker with. I've been having a few problems with that one in that the #3 cylinder is difficult to get warmed up and firing consistantly. I did manage to get it cooking on all three and do a maiden on the thing for the previous owner whos a good friend of mine, 87 years young. First time it's flown in about 20 years and he was tickled to death to see it! It's way more engine than it needs, I don't think I even got much more than half throttle the whole time in the air, but it sounded great/flew well at that speed.
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Old 11-04-2019, 11:22 AM
  #2536  
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If it ain't broke....fix it 'till its broke! :-)

Yeah, I gotta say, although I havent run mine much recently (that will change soon) I am a little disappointed with not having anything to tear down..although I have rebuilt an OS GF40 and an NGH GF38 so workshop time has been good...now for some flying weather!
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Old 11-05-2019, 01:11 PM
  #2537  
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Originally Posted by 757jonp View Post
Just checking in to report that I haven't got much to report! We had a "Internal combustion Only" Fly in event this last w/e. Sad to report that the "Junkyard Dawg" (P47/FG-60 combo) ran/flew absolutly perfectly all day. First start was even a one flip event! I've decided I need to get it in the shop, tear it down to the last nut and bolt, and see why it's running so damd good! (No I'm not... lol)

It was a good thing I bought that slightly used FG-90 that I put on a Ziroli AT-6 or I'd have nothing to tinker with. I've been having a few problems with that one in that the #3 cylinder is difficult to get warmed up and firing consistantly. I did manage to get it cooking on all three and do a maiden on the thing for the previous owner whos a good friend of mine, 87 years young. First time it's flown in about 20 years and he was tickled to death to see it! It's way more engine than it needs, I don't think I even got much more than half throttle the whole time in the air, but it sounded great/flew well at that speed.
Man I hate when things go perfect. Oh wait that's how it;s supposed to be, I forgot lol
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Old 11-05-2019, 05:00 PM
  #2538  
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I know... I know... things are supposed to run perfect. However you have to understand that I've been fussing with this troublesome engine ever since I got it what, three years ago or so? We've,( the many folks on this thread), have been thrashing this thing from A to Z, up and down, and sideways for quite a while. From why cylinders are breaking, discussing detonation, overheating, cooling, funny crank phasing, strange carbs, different carbs, intakes, and finally discovering the ignition timing was off and coming up with a cure for it all the while wondering why the heck Saito missed this stuff in the first place.

I like a good mechanical challenge from time to time, and now sadly (sorta) this one has pretty much run it's course?

Perhaps we should send a bill to Saito for "Technical Services". I wouldn't recommend holding your breath waiting for payment on that one though!
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Old 11-06-2019, 02:30 AM
  #2539  
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Jon, thats funny, man! I have the same feeling....I look at it all dejected sometimes and almost 'will' it to fail.:-)

I am always looking for a challenge, and have the other engines to mess around with. For now, I want to fly my Saito and enjoy it! There are a couple of guys where I fly who deny to this day that there is NOTHING WRONG with it as it comes from the factory, and will NOT entertain putting any mods on it....some of them only fly them twice or three times per year so the chances of them failing while I am spectating are disappointingly low...LOL....
Others have done the timing mod as a minimum and are genuinely impressed by the smooth running and are less afraid to fly them. I think they are all waiting for me to determine whether the crankcase mod is worth it or not, as reducing the oil content, and thus carbonisation is their next desire. So this winter I am flying the nuts off it.....as a guinea pig. Some guys find it funy that I treat this engine so badly, and they are expensive and I am not a wealthy man, but like you, I have battled enough to a point where it is almost, if not, fixed now!

THis has been an interesting, frustrating informative thread, and although it seems to have run its course, I am very grateful that so many people contributed in a 'mostly' positive way....and it appears that teamwork....works!
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Old 11-08-2019, 11:06 PM
  #2540  
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Five flights this weekend, didnít miss a beat! I was thinking that the carb would need to be richened up a bit as the ambient temps have dropped a lot since last flights, but it ran perfectly, so didnít change anything. They use such a little fuel itís ridiculous. 3 x 7 minutes flying and it used 250ml...half a tank. It could get 30mins if flying in a tank, with ease.
all good in FG60 world over here....

the engine Ines will probably do another weekend of flying and then it will go through some maintenance. I want to open one cylinder up and check the carbon levels, and clean
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Old 11-09-2019, 10:56 AM
  #2541  
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Originally Posted by cathurga View Post
Five flights this weekend, didnít miss a beat! I was thinking that the carb would need to be richened up a bit as the ambient temps have dropped a lot since last flights, but it ran perfectly, so didnít change anything. They use such a little fuel itís ridiculous. 3 x 7 minutes flying and it used 250ml...half a tank. It could get 30mins if flying in a tank, with ease.
all good in FG60 world over here....

the engine Ines will probably do another weekend of flying and then it will go through some maintenance. I want to open one cylinder up and check the carbon levels, and clean
cathurga , Good to hear your 60 is running great, How many flights before you do maintenance? I was thinking about every gallon or if I hear something with the motor.
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Old 11-09-2019, 11:26 AM
  #2542  
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Nalby, it depends, I have had this thing in so many pieces before, so my case is different, but if you are able to get the cowl off easily, I would suggest checking the tappets quite regularly while it is still new. They take a while to bed in. I would also want to make sure the top cylinder valve train is getting sufficient lube. Pull a spark plug or two and see if they are burning ok, a nice tan color is best but with 20:1 oil ratio, I would doubt you get anything but sooty black plugs...if you hear a squeak noise from any valve guides, you need to lube it. A gallon is around 4 liters in metric so yeah, thats ok I suppose....
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Old 11-12-2019, 05:07 PM
  #2543  
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Hello All. I'm new here although I've read this entire thread over a couple months. Not new to RC but I did just get back into it after years away. I'm building a TF Corsair kit, not an ARF, the one from years ago I found it on eBay for cheap. I had originally planned to put the Saito fg60 in it. Wonderful radial sound in a war bird... ok got to reading. The corsairs cowling is 10.25in wide, plenty to accommodate the 60. I've looked up the dimensions for the Saito fg90 r3 and they are 250mm- 9.8 inches diameter. Several questions, should I still go with 60 knowing all the issues you guys have been through? Will the 90 fit with such a tight margin in the cowl if I were to go with that instead?(if so heat problems?) Is the 90 a better choice now because all of the inadequacies of the 60 have been worked out with its redesign and wouldn't require the extra costs of sending it to Ray etc. Would the 90 be way too much power for this 86.5 wingspan? Comments much appreciated
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Old 11-12-2019, 06:38 PM
  #2544  
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Welcome to the thread Enjoyav8tion, it must of taken awhile to read the whole thing!

You might be able to stuff that FG-90 in it, but it seems though I've read that most folks using that kit had to enlarge the cowl a bit for clearance and you might have to move the engine mount/firewall back a bit. Personally I think the FG-60 would be the better choice and should have plenty of power for the Corsair. It seems as though with the timing set at a normal setting the FG-60 has become a dependable engine, though many have used it right out of the box without problems. For reference I'm using mine in a kit built TF P-47 weighing 22 lb dry. It's not a rocket probably, but it's no dog either. Performs about the same as with the G62 I had on it previously IMO.
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Old 11-12-2019, 06:54 PM
  #2545  
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Thanks! I hadn't considered the firewall re-placement. Well I'll stick to the original plan then with the Saito FG60. Planning wise it would be a nightmare at this point to change engines.
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Old 11-12-2019, 07:08 PM
  #2546  
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And yes btw, reading 5 years worth of thread I think I'm about cross eyed
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Old 11-12-2019, 07:09 PM
  #2547  
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Yah, I think you'd have a problem if the firewall is already built because the 90 is about 2 inches longer overall vs the 60, not to mention it weighs more too. Other than making up a set of standoffs, the 60 was a "bolt on" in place of the G62 in the P47 with good access to the carb adjustments. It should be about the same on your Corsair?
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Old 11-12-2019, 08:14 PM
  #2548  
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Welcome to the forum, hope you enjoyed the 'banter' :-)

I would agree with Jon, the 60 would fly it OK, and as people have had similar experiences with the P-47 and other planes if the size. If youre going to fly it with a 2-bladed prop, there shouldnt be any problems, and you will find that over time, when the engine 'beds' in, it will just get better. You wont need to redo the firewall or have to chop the cowl. With regards to the mods to the engine, I will advise as I always do... ALL the Saito radials will benefit from the timing mod, its a simple thing to do, is completely reversible and makes a big difference to the engines longevity and general running. If you have one of the Version 2 engines, you might get away with not doing the mod, but if its the older version, its strongly recommended. The crankcase mod, is also pretty simple, is also reversible if you put a replacement backplate on (Morris Mini Motors option is modded and machined plate to replace yours). The mod allows you to drop the oil content in the fuel to a 30:1 instead of 20:1. Your choice. The timing mod is around $100, the crankcase mod around $200, so you have the cost to consider as well.
Remember, you also might want to consider a collector ring for exhaust, it does sound a lot better, but not sure if there is any power difference, good or bad. Thats another $200 for a Morris, Meier or Keleo. They are all pretty similar, but the fitment of the Meier version is the best. Morris was making some new designs for his, with better mounting options, but not sure if he has changed them as yet.
Run the engine in well with a 22x8 prop, then move to a 22x10 and fly it! After a few gallons, try a 21x12. Prop selection does make a diference to flight characteristics, so you will be best off trying different combo's.

We demand to see build and flight pics,... and video's... :-)
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Old 11-12-2019, 09:01 PM
  #2549  
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BTW, what retracts are you going to use for your bird? I know that retracts for Corsairs, P40's etc are pretty rare to find. Most people go with Robarts, Sierra or Century Jet. I have heard good/bad reviews of all of them, but you may want to look into this as well, they seem pretty sturdy, and although China made, look pretty good!
JP Hobby 2pcs Alloy Electric Retracts gear turn 90degree for F4U airplane model JP-F4U-R for rc models Sale | wholesale - Hobby-China Co.,LTd.
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Old 11-13-2019, 08:35 AM
  #2550  
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Still figuring out this website/ upload feature. I think I posted pics of the build and tried a video of the gear doors. I didn't like the video because it was a MOV file. I'm using Robert retracts(came with the kit on eBay)air retracts and cockpit movement, electric gear doors.
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