Saito FG-60R3
12-13-2015, 10:28 AM
#276
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So.... does anyone think that having a loose ignition pick-up would affect engine performance??
I ran the engine again yesterday, first tank of gas the engine ran nicely, good idle, smooth in the middle range, maximum rpm 6000. Second tank, I can't get idle, cant get 6000 rpm. What the heck???? Then I notice that there is movement of the pick-up so I shut down the engine. both allen screws are loose, the pick-up has about 1/16 inch sideways play and about the same up and down. Can't be good!! So I have tightened those down, seems to have improved idle, but 6000 rpm is the max.
I notice that No 3 cylinder is now running a bit hot, and the other two cylinders are about the same as each other. No 3 cylinder has been running cold, I believe the spark plug cap was not maintaining good contact and that it was not firing consistently. I have fixed that now. The other thing I notice is that the rpm swings up to 6000 rpm when I push the throttle up, but then drops back to 5800-5900 rpm.
This engine is my first Saito. So far I am not impressed. Yes, there is some blame on my part, I am a novice to radial engines and don't have a massive amount of 4-stroke gas engine experience. But the constant fiddling, loosening of screws, fiddly spark plug cap retaining system, lack of top end performance is starting to get me down!!
If only I had a repair/servicing/distributing facility near by, or even in country!!!!
I ran the engine again yesterday, first tank of gas the engine ran nicely, good idle, smooth in the middle range, maximum rpm 6000. Second tank, I can't get idle, cant get 6000 rpm. What the heck???? Then I notice that there is movement of the pick-up so I shut down the engine. both allen screws are loose, the pick-up has about 1/16 inch sideways play and about the same up and down. Can't be good!! So I have tightened those down, seems to have improved idle, but 6000 rpm is the max. I notice that No 3 cylinder is now running a bit hot, and the other two cylinders are about the same as each other. No 3 cylinder has been running cold, I believe the spark plug cap was not maintaining good contact and that it was not firing consistently. I have fixed that now. The other thing I notice is that the rpm swings up to 6000 rpm when I push the throttle up, but then drops back to 5800-5900 rpm.
This engine is my first Saito. So far I am not impressed. Yes, there is some blame on my part, I am a novice to radial engines and don't have a massive amount of 4-stroke gas engine experience. But the constant fiddling, loosening of screws, fiddly spark plug cap retaining system, lack of top end performance is starting to get me down!!
If only I had a repair/servicing/distributing facility near by, or even in country!!!!
12-13-2015, 11:46 AM
#278
How are you guys plumbing your fuel tank with this engine? Can you use a simple T connection since it has a pumped carb? The manual mentions using a 3 line system, and I'd like to avoid that where possible (using a RotoFlow tank setup).
12-13-2015, 12:37 PM
#279
Hey Hector, thanks for the comments. I was afraid things weren't quite right, thought I should be doing better than 5800 rpm. I will go over the things you have suggested. Wow! I seem to be checking valve clearances every 5 minutes on this thing. Certainly more work than a single cylinder.
To set up the clearances I have turned the motor until both rockers have gaps, logic tells me that this has to be on the compression stroke since a valve has to be opening on all other strokes. I do this with the spark plug out and I feel the piston ascending with a small plastic tube. When the piston stops ascending, and begins descending I know I have gone too far and reverse the motion until the piston is once again at the top of its ascending motion. That is where I check the gaps and adjust. Does this seem to be a reasonable method?
I ran the engine two days ago, and it starts and runs just fine, just won't accelerate beyond 5800 rpm. Yes, I am using an IR type thermometer, don't have access to a contact type. There doesn't seem to be a lot in the way of supply of touch type thermometers for model engines in my part of the world.
I am using a plug in type digital tachometer, this has been checked for accuracy by also using a hand-held laser type tachometer.
I am using a 5 cell 6v NiMh battery pack. I don't let the voltage fall below 6 v.
I was concerned about whether the throttle was fully open or not, I have the throttle controlled by a servo, signal from my transmitter. To check this I loosened the throttle control rod and moved it manually independent of the servo. It made no difference, and the throttle looks to be fully open when viewed in the carburettor.
Yeah, will check to ensure the barrel isn't slipping, and will check/adjust the valves AGAIN, and will look at changing the settings high and low needles back to factory as you suggest.
Thanks again!
Alf
To set up the clearances I have turned the motor until both rockers have gaps, logic tells me that this has to be on the compression stroke since a valve has to be opening on all other strokes. I do this with the spark plug out and I feel the piston ascending with a small plastic tube. When the piston stops ascending, and begins descending I know I have gone too far and reverse the motion until the piston is once again at the top of its ascending motion. That is where I check the gaps and adjust. Does this seem to be a reasonable method?
I ran the engine two days ago, and it starts and runs just fine, just won't accelerate beyond 5800 rpm. Yes, I am using an IR type thermometer, don't have access to a contact type. There doesn't seem to be a lot in the way of supply of touch type thermometers for model engines in my part of the world.
I am using a plug in type digital tachometer, this has been checked for accuracy by also using a hand-held laser type tachometer.
I am using a 5 cell 6v NiMh battery pack. I don't let the voltage fall below 6 v.
I was concerned about whether the throttle was fully open or not, I have the throttle controlled by a servo, signal from my transmitter. To check this I loosened the throttle control rod and moved it manually independent of the servo. It made no difference, and the throttle looks to be fully open when viewed in the carburettor.
Yeah, will check to ensure the barrel isn't slipping, and will check/adjust the valves AGAIN, and will look at changing the settings high and low needles back to factory as you suggest.
Thanks again!
Alf
Regarding the valves: there are 2 TDCs in the cycle where both valves stop moving - the power stroke TDC and the exhaust stroke TDC. But only one is the right one to make the adjustment - the power stroke TDC. The way to tell which is which is by rotating the engine (covers off) and noticing on which of the 2 both valves remain closed for the longest time. You will notice that in the exhaust TDC, the intake valve will start to open right when the exhaust valve is closing. Not so in the power stroke TDC.
For a touch thermometer (a great investment) you can either get an RC sensor (if you have a Tx/Rx system with telemetry) or go to any industrial shop and get a calibrated probe for a multimemeter or a small instrument as a set. http://www.fishpond.co.nz/c/Kitchen/...ocouple+K+Type
Finally, lose the NiMH and put on a 2Cell lipo. The NiMH is more current-limited t load than a LiPo - no question of voltage.
There is this thing with this carb - if you jam the barrel to its mechanical stop it gives you a small drop in rpm. Just adjust your endpoints to give you a movement just before that drop. Funny, but that's that!
Last edited by hpergm; 12-13-2015 at 12:42 PM.
12-13-2015, 02:35 PM
#280
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Thanks Hector,
Yes, will re-check all the valve clearances again, for me the compression stroke has to be when both valves are closed, with the inlet valve being the last to close as it induces fuel/air mixture, the next valve to move after TDC should be the exhaust valve, but not until the piston has descended on the power stroke. Will double double check.
Yeah, I read about the "thing" with the Saito carb, I tried to get an increase in RPM by backing off the full throttle position slightly, no change.
I'll have to have another look at the timing pick-up. There is a small amount of radial movement available when the pick-up is loose, will see if moving it to the clockwise (as you face from the front, opposite direction to propeller rotation)) extremity of this small amount of movement will "advance" the spark and get a better high end performance.
Either way, this engine cost me a lot of money, and I wish it performed better without having to jump through hoops all the time. I am hopeful that the rising temperature in No 3 cylinder means that it is firing properly now and is bedding in, so hopefully this will give better performance soon. 6 litres of fuel through it now!!
I also wish that Saito used two external adjusters for High and Low screws. The Low seems to be dominant, and having to fiddle with a screw driver down the center of the throttle arm is a major PITA as far as I am concerned. Much much easier to see what is going on with an external adjuster and doesn't tension the throttle arm one way or the other when you make adjustments like this one does.
Forgive me my grumpy attitude please, I'm just getting frustrated with this engine for the price I paid.
Alf
Yes, will re-check all the valve clearances again, for me the compression stroke has to be when both valves are closed, with the inlet valve being the last to close as it induces fuel/air mixture, the next valve to move after TDC should be the exhaust valve, but not until the piston has descended on the power stroke. Will double double check.
Yeah, I read about the "thing" with the Saito carb, I tried to get an increase in RPM by backing off the full throttle position slightly, no change.
I'll have to have another look at the timing pick-up. There is a small amount of radial movement available when the pick-up is loose, will see if moving it to the clockwise (as you face from the front, opposite direction to propeller rotation)) extremity of this small amount of movement will "advance" the spark and get a better high end performance.
Either way, this engine cost me a lot of money, and I wish it performed better without having to jump through hoops all the time. I am hopeful that the rising temperature in No 3 cylinder means that it is firing properly now and is bedding in, so hopefully this will give better performance soon. 6 litres of fuel through it now!!
I also wish that Saito used two external adjusters for High and Low screws. The Low seems to be dominant, and having to fiddle with a screw driver down the center of the throttle arm is a major PITA as far as I am concerned. Much much easier to see what is going on with an external adjuster and doesn't tension the throttle arm one way or the other when you make adjustments like this one does.
Forgive me my grumpy attitude please, I'm just getting frustrated with this engine for the price I paid.
Alf
Last edited by ALFIEV; 12-13-2015 at 02:37 PM.
12-13-2015, 04:16 PM
#281
I also wish that Saito used two external adjusters for High and Low screws. The Low seems to be dominant, and having to fiddle with a screw driver down the center of the throttle arm is a major PITA as far as I am concerned. Much much easier to see what is going on with an external adjuster and doesn't tension the throttle arm one way or the other when you make adjustments like this one does.
Alf
12-13-2015, 10:24 PM
#282
Hey Alf,
Absoutely fine to be a bit grumpy after forking out ~1,000 good ones on the motor.
However, let's be pragmatic - the only way we can get a small gas radial below 1,000 (think of that a few years ago!) is that some of the machining takes place outside Japan. The difference of finish on the casting of the cylinders and the crankcase is a point. Others have reported loose cylinder bolts, you report a loose pick up (bummer). This is what happens when the heat expansion coefficient of the different metal parts is not matched properly or the thread tolerances are a bit off, which kind of fortofies the point above. This is not my first Saito (more like the 15th), and I can tell you those motors are light, pwerful and long-lasting ("little sewing machines" we call'em at the field). Remember, if one of the cylinders is cold (thus still tight) it will only rob power in a big way. Maybe you need to be patient. The pick up lossenes is something you will probably need a degree wheel to fix. Have a look at some online resources, I remember seeing somewhere a procedure to fix it.
If you have 6 liters through the motor, I would stongly suggest you put it on a light airframe and give it some air time. The banking of the plane during the turns will help all cylinders to bed in faster. This is why Saito says, run it shortly, then fly it. More details in the Gas Radials thread I linked to you a coule of posts before. Well worth going through it.
Problem is people buy this motor to put on "expensive" scale planes and are reluctant to test fly if everything is not 100% (myself included). This robs the opportunity to help the engine faster.
Absoutely fine to be a bit grumpy after forking out ~1,000 good ones on the motor.
However, let's be pragmatic - the only way we can get a small gas radial below 1,000 (think of that a few years ago!) is that some of the machining takes place outside Japan. The difference of finish on the casting of the cylinders and the crankcase is a point. Others have reported loose cylinder bolts, you report a loose pick up (bummer). This is what happens when the heat expansion coefficient of the different metal parts is not matched properly or the thread tolerances are a bit off, which kind of fortofies the point above. This is not my first Saito (more like the 15th), and I can tell you those motors are light, pwerful and long-lasting ("little sewing machines" we call'em at the field). Remember, if one of the cylinders is cold (thus still tight) it will only rob power in a big way. Maybe you need to be patient. The pick up lossenes is something you will probably need a degree wheel to fix. Have a look at some online resources, I remember seeing somewhere a procedure to fix it.
If you have 6 liters through the motor, I would stongly suggest you put it on a light airframe and give it some air time. The banking of the plane during the turns will help all cylinders to bed in faster. This is why Saito says, run it shortly, then fly it. More details in the Gas Radials thread I linked to you a coule of posts before. Well worth going through it.
Problem is people buy this motor to put on "expensive" scale planes and are reluctant to test fly if everything is not 100% (myself included). This robs the opportunity to help the engine faster.
12-14-2015, 10:44 AM
#283
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Yes Hector, I think you are right in what you say. Certainly this engine is intended to go into a Topflite Zero, and this will be the most expensive project I have ever undertaken. For that reason I am reluctant to fly it unless I am certain that the engine is making enough power to fly the frame. Shame I don't have a great big old Ugly Stik to fly it in, that would be ideal!!
I will persist with the engine. I have holidays coming soon, so will have time to tinker some more. I do have a car mechanic friend who is local and has the Saito 19cc radial which he has tuned and runs very well. I might get him to look over my set-up to see if he can spot something obvious.
I will persist with the engine. I have holidays coming soon, so will have time to tinker some more. I do have a car mechanic friend who is local and has the Saito 19cc radial which he has tuned and runs very well. I might get him to look over my set-up to see if he can spot something obvious.
12-14-2015, 01:09 PM
#284
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I am flying top flite corsair with it and there is plenty of power. Your zero will fly just fine. Engine is turning mejzlik 22x10 @ 6400 as given in the specs. I have no experience with xoar but menz 22x10 would also turn around 6000 so, your rpm could be normal. I am also a little frustrated with saito. I found the carb to be leaky and messy and there is oil all over the place, it is no fun, i spend a lot of time to clean after flight day. I have been flying around without a cowl, I don't know how would I clean the mess in the firewall if I had the cowl on. Nevertheless, engine has been reliable. I think as others recommended, just fly it after the initial break in, this is what I did and I must have around 25 flights a 12 mins on the engine. I am still far from good needle settings but it has worked reliably even with not so good settings.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRzwD0xJFWs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRzwD0xJFWs
12-14-2015, 02:06 PM
#285
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Thanks for the feedback scubaozy! Itried to view your video but was unable, perhaps a problem with my server, will try again later.
Anyways, I am encouraged by what you say, and will persist with this engine. There is no doubt that it idles well and sounds just great when all is tuned and adjusted correctly. Before the pick-up came loose this engine was just purring beautifully at 3000-4000 rpm and growling at 5800-5900. Perhaps 6000 rpm is a good top-end with the XOAR.
There is hope yet!!!
Anyways, I am encouraged by what you say, and will persist with this engine. There is no doubt that it idles well and sounds just great when all is tuned and adjusted correctly. Before the pick-up came loose this engine was just purring beautifully at 3000-4000 rpm and growling at 5800-5900. Perhaps 6000 rpm is a good top-end with the XOAR.
There is hope yet!!!
12-14-2015, 10:04 PM
#286
Hi Guys, so I have been fiddling with my FG-60 also. Just to tune in on the rpm situation. My lowest rpm at idle is like 1300-1400 and peak is 6000-6300 I am running a xoar 22x10. My engine will peak at 6300 for a sec and the drop back down to 6000. It flies the plane just fine and I love to put her up at about 200 ft, set the throttle back to 1/3 and enjoy the sight an sound of it.
A little update on the squeaky valve. I tried to richen up the low end and well it didn't like it at all. I messed with it for about an hour and ended up at the same settings as before. What I did next will probably have some of you cringing but I honestly don't think it had any negative impact on the engine and feel that it did run a bit smoother. So I took a high quality Chain saw bar oil and filled the no.1 cylinder exhaust valve cap almost full of the oil and with the plane turned up side down I put it back on. I put it all back together and started the engine. It started like normal, transitioned normal and had peak rpm as normal. I took off and flew for 5min and landed. I did 4 flights and had no problems. After the 5th flight I checked again to see if the squeak had come back and it had. When I got home I pulled the valve cover off and it was completely empty with only a slight oil residue. I don't know what to do. I figured the Oil I put in the cap would stay there but apparently it worked it's way out and thru the engine. My next thing to try would be to put a breather nipple on the caps and route the crank case breather to the caps then out to atmosphere. Yes it is only a little squeak, no you can't hear it when it is running but it is bugging the crap out of me. Here is a pic of the valve covers sitting on a paper towel for 2 days. You will see the different amount of oil that has soaked into it from each cylinder. I have noticed that the Exhaust covers have less on all cylinders compared to the intake covers.
My guess is that it is burning off and in this case since the top cylinder is fighting gravity it gets less than the rest. So that means it is less to burn off and become dry.
md
A little update on the squeaky valve. I tried to richen up the low end and well it didn't like it at all. I messed with it for about an hour and ended up at the same settings as before. What I did next will probably have some of you cringing but I honestly don't think it had any negative impact on the engine and feel that it did run a bit smoother. So I took a high quality Chain saw bar oil and filled the no.1 cylinder exhaust valve cap almost full of the oil and with the plane turned up side down I put it back on. I put it all back together and started the engine. It started like normal, transitioned normal and had peak rpm as normal. I took off and flew for 5min and landed. I did 4 flights and had no problems. After the 5th flight I checked again to see if the squeak had come back and it had. When I got home I pulled the valve cover off and it was completely empty with only a slight oil residue. I don't know what to do. I figured the Oil I put in the cap would stay there but apparently it worked it's way out and thru the engine. My next thing to try would be to put a breather nipple on the caps and route the crank case breather to the caps then out to atmosphere. Yes it is only a little squeak, no you can't hear it when it is running but it is bugging the crap out of me. Here is a pic of the valve covers sitting on a paper towel for 2 days. You will see the different amount of oil that has soaked into it from each cylinder. I have noticed that the Exhaust covers have less on all cylinders compared to the intake covers.
My guess is that it is burning off and in this case since the top cylinder is fighting gravity it gets less than the rest. So that means it is less to burn off and become dry.
md
12-15-2015, 07:48 AM
#287
MDavis, I think you've got too much slop or something isn't right between the valve and the valve guide/bushing. No idea what exactly, but maybe worth seeing if you can get it replaced? A new head isn't exactly cheap though, but if it's working I wouldn't worry a huge deal.
What I have seen before however, is some guys have tapped the rocker covers on the surfaces facing each other to mount a pressure nipple, and then connecting a tube between the two rocker covers to help distribute and spread some oil between them. Might be worth a shot? It should distribute oil and equalize the pressure between the intake/exhaust a bit better too.
The exhaust covers will more than likely be subject to higher heats, and I would think a higher velocity/pressure of air/gas escaping from the exhaust than the intake. Also, the exhaust is blowing things out of the engine, while the intake is of course intaking fuel and oil into the engine. So naturally, you might expect the exhaust to be a little drier if the exhaust is making it directly out the exhaust port. Again, I'd imagine doing something to equalize/relieve some pressure between the intake and exhaust might help. OS does it this way (under one valve cover) on the majority of their engines; that being said I don't know of any real negatives associated with it.
What I have seen before however, is some guys have tapped the rocker covers on the surfaces facing each other to mount a pressure nipple, and then connecting a tube between the two rocker covers to help distribute and spread some oil between them. Might be worth a shot? It should distribute oil and equalize the pressure between the intake/exhaust a bit better too.
The exhaust covers will more than likely be subject to higher heats, and I would think a higher velocity/pressure of air/gas escaping from the exhaust than the intake. Also, the exhaust is blowing things out of the engine, while the intake is of course intaking fuel and oil into the engine. So naturally, you might expect the exhaust to be a little drier if the exhaust is making it directly out the exhaust port. Again, I'd imagine doing something to equalize/relieve some pressure between the intake and exhaust might help. OS does it this way (under one valve cover) on the majority of their engines; that being said I don't know of any real negatives associated with it.
Last edited by chorner; 12-15-2015 at 07:52 AM.
12-15-2015, 09:27 AM
#288
Certainly this engine is intended to go into a Topflite Zero, and this will be the most expensive project I have ever undertaken. For that reason I am reluctant to fly it unless I am certain that the engine is making enough power to fly the frame. Shame I don't have a great big old Ugly Stik to fly it in, that would be ideal!!
I am sure you've seen that, but here goes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whs6G5N1bKE
12-15-2015, 09:31 AM
#289
My next thing to try would be to put a breather nipple on the caps and route the crank case breather to the caps then out to atmosphere. Yes it is only a little squeak, no you can't hear it when it is running but it is bugging the crap out of me. Here is a pic of the valve covers sitting on a paper towel for 2 days. You will see the different amount of oil that has soaked into it from each cylinder. I have noticed that the Exhaust covers have less on all cylinders compared to the intake covers.
My guess is that it is burning off and in this case since the top cylinder is fighting gravity it gets less than the rest. So that means it is less to burn off and become dry.
md
My guess is that it is burning off and in this case since the top cylinder is fighting gravity it gets less than the rest. So that means it is less to burn off and become dry.
md
12-15-2015, 10:34 AM
#290
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Currently have it on a TF FW190. Next for me - a Zero as well!! Keep the Zero thread posted then.
I am sure you've seen that, but here goes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whs6G5N1bKE
I am sure you've seen that, but here goes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whs6G5N1bKE
Anyway, hope to advance this project March 2016, have been buying Robart landing gear, Best Pilots model pilot etc etc.The only forum I have found on the Topflite Zero is this http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...2090628&page=3.
Do you know of another one?
12-15-2015, 02:56 PM
#291
Btw, after going back and reading this entire thread it seems to me there may be a couple reasons for the issues with this engine:
1) too long on the break-in bench / too much heat
2) not enough, and possibly not good quality oil. Seems like sticking to 15:1 is the best idea, and I think a proven oil like Castrol TTS seems like a better bet and should run cleaner than Klots or some oils targeted at modellers (read: cheap, not as good quality as a professional large manufacturer like Castrol etc.)
3) not going over the whole engine when new, and giving it a good bath in oil
The one thing that rings true to me, is that Saito engines generally deliver bone dry from the factory. Seems really stupid to me, but it is what it is. All of my OS engines have been perfectly smooth and oiled up right out of the box, but Saito's squeak and grind and are in desperate need of dropping oil in the rocker boxes, and all around inside of the crankcase.
Willing to bet money the guys with trouble just pulled it out of the box, and didn't oil the whole thing up - then potentially leaned it out a little too much and "bam". I would even go so far as to check valve lash right out of the box and check the bolts. I do this same thing on all model engines in general now after I cooked up a Saito FG21 for probably the exact same reason... ran it a bit too hard out of the box, and didn't lube it up at all. It was squeaky and not smooth... and I got it for cheap so I didn't care (was my first Saito...), and I noticed right off the bat compared to my OS and other engines it was lacking oil but I thought "Saito is a big name brand, I'm sure they deliver it ready to go". Obviously was wrong on that
Not so sure there's a real issue with these things other than a handful of guys beating on them too hard, too soon, and not following the above etc. I still don't get why they would run bare aluminum though and only put brass bushings on the master rod. There should also be a needle bearing in there... kind of cheap if you ask me. That's my general opinion of Saitos now though is that they are pretty good as a whole, but less quality than an OS 4 stroke etc.
1) too long on the break-in bench / too much heat
2) not enough, and possibly not good quality oil. Seems like sticking to 15:1 is the best idea, and I think a proven oil like Castrol TTS seems like a better bet and should run cleaner than Klots or some oils targeted at modellers (read: cheap, not as good quality as a professional large manufacturer like Castrol etc.)
3) not going over the whole engine when new, and giving it a good bath in oil
The one thing that rings true to me, is that Saito engines generally deliver bone dry from the factory. Seems really stupid to me, but it is what it is. All of my OS engines have been perfectly smooth and oiled up right out of the box, but Saito's squeak and grind and are in desperate need of dropping oil in the rocker boxes, and all around inside of the crankcase.
Willing to bet money the guys with trouble just pulled it out of the box, and didn't oil the whole thing up - then potentially leaned it out a little too much and "bam". I would even go so far as to check valve lash right out of the box and check the bolts. I do this same thing on all model engines in general now after I cooked up a Saito FG21 for probably the exact same reason... ran it a bit too hard out of the box, and didn't lube it up at all. It was squeaky and not smooth... and I got it for cheap so I didn't care (was my first Saito...), and I noticed right off the bat compared to my OS and other engines it was lacking oil but I thought "Saito is a big name brand, I'm sure they deliver it ready to go". Obviously was wrong on that
Not so sure there's a real issue with these things other than a handful of guys beating on them too hard, too soon, and not following the above etc. I still don't get why they would run bare aluminum though and only put brass bushings on the master rod. There should also be a needle bearing in there... kind of cheap if you ask me. That's my general opinion of Saitos now though is that they are pretty good as a whole, but less quality than an OS 4 stroke etc.
12-15-2015, 03:33 PM
#292
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Well, can't answer for others, but I do know that I squirted 20ml of 3-in-1 into the crankcase and oiled all the rockers before the first start. I have followed the instructions for running in, and now after 6 litres of fuel I was thinking the engine might start to perform. Having said that, I do believe that the sparkplug cap issue on No 3 cylinder has meant that it did not reach temperature and did not bed in. Now that I have sorted the sparkplug cap issue that cylinder is starting to heat up and should soon balance with the other two.
I did go over the screws on the engine, but to be honest can't recall if I check-tightened the ignition pick-up screws.
Yeah, I think I might have been expecting this engine to run-in on the test bench a little quicker than it has. My only 4-stroke gas engine experience is with the NGH 38, not a perfect engine by any means, but two tanks of gas through at 3000 rpm and she's ready to lean up. A few more tanks and a reasonable idle should be achievable, now go and fly!!
Just have to be more patient with the Saito I reckon.
I did go over the screws on the engine, but to be honest can't recall if I check-tightened the ignition pick-up screws.
Yeah, I think I might have been expecting this engine to run-in on the test bench a little quicker than it has. My only 4-stroke gas engine experience is with the NGH 38, not a perfect engine by any means, but two tanks of gas through at 3000 rpm and she's ready to lean up. A few more tanks and a reasonable idle should be achievable, now go and fly!!
Just have to be more patient with the Saito I reckon.
12-15-2015, 05:49 PM
#293
Ok, lets not throw any stones here! I totally oiled up my FG-60R3 with Marvel Mystery oil very well! I took all the plugs out an lubed up the piston/ cylinder, took the valve caps off checked the clearances and adjusted all of them, then lubed those up and put the caps back on. Then I put quite a bit in thru the the vent nipple. Then and only then did I even attempt to turn the crank shaft. I turned it over a few times and added more oil to the cylinders and the breather nipple. I then put the plugs back in. I put oil in on the all the exhaust valves thru the exhaust ports. I put oil in the the intake with the carb wide open to lube the intake valves. I then check all bolts and screws before even putting it on my test bench. This engine is the most expensive single piece of RC equipment that I have purchased. So I made darn sure it had plenty of oil in before it ever saw a drop of gas. If I didn't care and just thru it on my plane I wouldn't give a **** about a squeaky valve. Truth is this is my 4th Saito engine. I have done this to both of my FG-21's and BOTH are still running great! Truth is I rebuilt my first engine when I was 8 yrs old with the help of my brother and the advise of my dad. I know better than to start a dry engine or even try and turn it over with out any oil. I always think worse case scenario with new engines. They have no oil!
12-15-2015, 06:06 PM
#294
MDavis, I didn't mean to personally insult, I'm just trying to gather what seems to me has and does cause issues with the Saito's. I say this as someone who's waiting for mine to come, and trying to gather an accurate representation of what I'm in for. I admittedly cooked an FG21 pretty quick myself thinking it was a bit more resilient like a glow engine, and running it too hard, too fast, and too lean/hot.
Your squeaky valve IMO isn't really any sort of major issue it sounds like, and not the sort I'm really alluding too anyhow. I've heard of several accounts of the engine completely seizing up, and the heads cracking near the base. I have been able to decipher that the couple of the worst cases I've seen, happened because the engine wasn't looked over initially or through the early stages - and was more than likely ran too hard, too hot, too quickly sort of thing.
The guys spoken too and read about/was able to contact online I didn't already know who love the engine and haven't had a single issue, all made note they thoroughly oiled it up, broke it in without going crazy running it for hours on end on the ground, and put her up in the air once they could count on it staying running and transitioning well enough... then flew it.
Your squeaky valve IMO isn't really any sort of major issue it sounds like, and not the sort I'm really alluding too anyhow. I've heard of several accounts of the engine completely seizing up, and the heads cracking near the base. I have been able to decipher that the couple of the worst cases I've seen, happened because the engine wasn't looked over initially or through the early stages - and was more than likely ran too hard, too hot, too quickly sort of thing.
The guys spoken too and read about/was able to contact online I didn't already know who love the engine and haven't had a single issue, all made note they thoroughly oiled it up, broke it in without going crazy running it for hours on end on the ground, and put her up in the air once they could count on it staying running and transitioning well enough... then flew it.
12-15-2015, 07:52 PM
#295
I guess I just need a vacation. You are correct tho, there are reports of broken cylinder and not going over the engine bolts very well. Again I agree that Saito's are delivered in need of a good oiling before use. I run all of my engines with 20:1 Stihl ultra hp and ethanol free 93 gas. A good friend of mine suggested it and it has worked perfect in the FG-21. I am thinking of switching to redline racing oil tho. Thinking...
I ran 3 tanks thru it very rich as said in manual then started the "rich to lean then back to rich in 10 min sessions for 1 tank. Then I did another tank to tune and make sure all was good for 10 min sessions again. I did do a few demo runs for friends to see it run but not a tank full. After that I didn't start it until it was in the plane. I set up my idle and check transition. The following runs were in-flight runs. I checked temps on it like a rookie baker making a pie. My fear was running it too lean, but then I read where people were cracking cylinders and I started worrying about having it to rich. I noticed that on the 7th flight it started running a little rough, but I knew the weather was getting colder and I would need to tune it soon. I did a tuning session at the field next trip out and was difficult to tune. What ended up happening is; I leaned out the low end until it quit when I open the throttle quickly. I then richend it up 1 1/8 turn and started it back up. And I didn't try and readjust them again until recently. When I did richen the low end it would cough and the rpms would lag badly. Even if it was lee than 1/8 turn, so I ended up back to my last tune. My only advise is to take hard notes (notebook) on what you did on this engine and when you did it. Treat it like it is a full size airplane engine, and it's your butt in the seat when the plane takes off.
CHORNER, your in for a treat. You may have a hard time even thinking about running it and getting it dirty. It really is an art piece. I had a hard time thinking about that stuff but I knew I really wanted to hear it run.
MD
I ran 3 tanks thru it very rich as said in manual then started the "rich to lean then back to rich in 10 min sessions for 1 tank. Then I did another tank to tune and make sure all was good for 10 min sessions again. I did do a few demo runs for friends to see it run but not a tank full. After that I didn't start it until it was in the plane. I set up my idle and check transition. The following runs were in-flight runs. I checked temps on it like a rookie baker making a pie. My fear was running it too lean, but then I read where people were cracking cylinders and I started worrying about having it to rich. I noticed that on the 7th flight it started running a little rough, but I knew the weather was getting colder and I would need to tune it soon. I did a tuning session at the field next trip out and was difficult to tune. What ended up happening is; I leaned out the low end until it quit when I open the throttle quickly. I then richend it up 1 1/8 turn and started it back up. And I didn't try and readjust them again until recently. When I did richen the low end it would cough and the rpms would lag badly. Even if it was lee than 1/8 turn, so I ended up back to my last tune. My only advise is to take hard notes (notebook) on what you did on this engine and when you did it. Treat it like it is a full size airplane engine, and it's your butt in the seat when the plane takes off.
CHORNER, your in for a treat. You may have a hard time even thinking about running it and getting it dirty. It really is an art piece. I had a hard time thinking about that stuff but I knew I really wanted to hear it run.
MD
12-15-2015, 08:06 PM
#296
Cool, definitely looking forward to it So far I've got 2 Evo 7-77 radials on of which has some nice performance mods done to it (OS carb, dual piston rings, CDI ignition), a fully upgraded ASP FS400 with all OS Fr5/7 parts and high quality bearings that fit (was a really fun project completely overhauling it actually!) and now this FG-60 on its way.
I'm hoping this Saito radial is a nice reliable engine after some run time, and shouldn't cost much to keep it going. Hopefully more of a "pull out and go fly" setup on my P-47 than the other planes/engines with the higher cylinder count radials running methanol. Definitely more upkeep required on those
So far I've got 2 Evo 7-77 radials on of which has some nice performance mods done to it (OS carb, dual piston rings, CDI ignition), a fully upgraded ASP FS400 with all OS Fr5/7 parts and high quality bearings that fit (was a really fun project completely overhauling it actually!) and now this FG-60 on its way. I'm hoping this Saito radial is a nice reliable engine after some run time, and shouldn't cost much to keep it going. Hopefully more of a "pull out and go fly" setup on my P-47 than the other planes/engines with the higher cylinder count radials running methanol. Definitely more upkeep required on those
12-15-2015, 11:26 PM
#297
Join Date: Jan 2013
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My Saito was delivered reasonably well oiled from the factory. Additionally you are suppose to run it extreme rich at the first hour. This ensures good lubrication. I also oil it like hell before first use but not because I thought it was necessary. Just wanted to be safe. I did not hear seizing crankcase or broken cylinder cases with fg57 so this could be specific design problem for fg60.
12-16-2015, 11:14 AM
#298
I have had the Zero on backorder from Towerhobbies since October 2015. Originally they had an estimated arrival of "late October", then revised to "late November", then revised to "Late February 2016". I gave their Customer Services a burst, but may as well have been pissing into the wind. Anyway, hope to advance this project March 2016, have been buying Robart landing gear, Best Pilots model pilot etc etc.
The only forum I have found on the Topflite Zero is this http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...2090628&page=3.
Do you know of another one?
Anyway, hope to advance this project March 2016, have been buying Robart landing gear, Best Pilots model pilot etc etc.The only forum I have found on the Topflite Zero is this http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...2090628&page=3.
Do you know of another one?
12-16-2015, 11:26 AM
#299
Here you go....:http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-w...o-86-span.html
Roger
