Gas Engines Questions or comments about gas engines can be posted here

Saito FG-60R3

Reply

Old 11-23-2014, 06:36 PM
  #26  
DLEVETT
My Feedback: (13)
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: GUELPH, ON, CANADA
Posts: 830
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

That sounds absolutely fantastic, thanks for sharing.
The difference in the exhaust sound from an open cowl stock exhaust to a
closed cowl Keleo exhaust is tremendous!
I,m saving for one of these bad boys for my TF GS P-47, I just hope it fits in the cowl.

Dave
DLEVETT is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2014, 07:34 PM
  #27  
marksp
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (9)
 
marksp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 735
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Originally Posted by nicandre94 View Post
I received my Keleo Exhaust
Awesome!
marksp is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2014, 10:59 PM
  #28  
US1A kai
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: YOKOHAMA, JAPAN
Posts: 92
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Already get one from Keleo here in Japan,
I can't wait to hear the good sound....LoL.
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	002.JPG
Views:	3758
Size:	163.9 KB
ID:	2049725   Click image for larger version

Name:	003.JPG
Views:	3749
Size:	167.0 KB
ID:	2049726  
US1A kai is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2014, 09:01 AM
  #29  
hpergm
 
hpergm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 354
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

I also received the engine a few days ago. Destined to be installed in an 86" Top Flite FW190.

(I am copying below some of the comments I also wrote over in the TF FW190 thread)

Most people go for the FG-84 for the FW190. However, I opted out because of certain design problems reported here (not fatal, but nevertheless annoying, for a 1.5k motor...)

Plus, the FG60 has a 220mm diameter which will fit most warbirds in the 80inch/50cc size range.
The same cannot be said for the FG84 (only seems to fit the TF FW190 and the H9 corsair without cowl hacking).
Anyhow, my next bird will be a TF Zero and this fits perfectly - the other major deciding factor.

If I may put my 0.02 on the table:
- The 84 uses 3x1.80 cylinders to swing a 24x10 @ low-mid 6,000's for a thrust of ~36lbs but has this inlet design issue which makes it underpowered relative to the new FG60 engine @ 5.7HP/3.057kg = 1.86HP/kg. After the Ray English mods, this index would climb to more than 2.2HP/kg (or 20%).

- The 60 uses 3x1.20 cylinders to swing a 22x10 @ mid 6,000's for a thrust of ~26lbs but has better power for its weight @ 4.7HP/2.090kg = 2.19HP/kg. Based on the above calculation for the modified FG84, this result is an indication that Ray's improved design changes have been included - plus the bronze bush for the master conrod as a Horizon rep has confirmed somewhere else here in RCU.

- Saito will probably never acknowledge the FG84's design shortcomings as this would entail warantee work on existing engines out there. I think they will just phase it out gradually.

- Instead, I see them releasing a "New!" FG75R3 in the future with 1.50 size cylinders (just to be different to the 84), same diameter and power-to-weight ratio as the FG60, but now able to swing an 23x10 @ mid 6,000s for a thrust of ~30-32lbs.

If you think about it, most 50cc warbirds (and especially the new mass market ARF breed which is light) come out in the 24-32lbs range; the FG75 would pull a heavy bird with 1-1 thrust to weight ratio... Perfect combination - and would fit most cowls. The would then be the definitive 50cc warbird radial..

So, if life were not too short, I would wait a bit longer. For now, the FG60 will do nicely if I manage to keep the 190's weight down to about 24-25lbs.
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC_3913.JPG
Views:	598
Size:	4.45 MB
ID:	2051879   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC_3915.JPG
Views:	430
Size:	4.89 MB
ID:	2051880   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC_3917.JPG
Views:	422
Size:	4.34 MB
ID:	2051881   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC_3918.JPG
Views:	432
Size:	4.94 MB
ID:	2051882   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC_3920.JPG
Views:	415
Size:	4.45 MB
ID:	2051883  
hpergm is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2014, 09:10 AM
  #30  
hpergm
 
hpergm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 354
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

A test stand was first constructed for the break-in runs.


Then, tappet lubrication and clearances were checked over on the engine itself. I found 3 tappets completely dry and one out of spec (>0.1mm gap). Easily re-adjusted and oiled with some 3-in-1.
Some 3-in-1 was also injected into the crankcase via the breather nipple just to be sure (I avoided opening up the new engine to check lubrication).


Saito elbows (included) were installed with some high-temp gasket sealant to avoid blowing muck all over the new motor.


Mοtor was finally mounted on the stand. An APC 22x10 was reamed @ 10mm and installed along with the Top Flite Spinner included in the FW190. Tank was 500cc.
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC_3921.JPG
Views:	4082
Size:	4.54 MB
ID:	2051884   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC_3923.JPG
Views:	4000
Size:	4.93 MB
ID:	2051885   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC_3924.JPG
Views:	4005
Size:	4.57 MB
ID:	2051886   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC_3934.JPG
Views:	4071
Size:	3.76 MB
ID:	2051887   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC_3937.JPG
Views:	4245
Size:	4.20 MB
ID:	2051888   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC_3939.JPG
Views:	3672
Size:	3.28 MB
ID:	2051889   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC_3943.JPG
Views:	3479
Size:	4.47 MB
ID:	2051890   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC_3945.JPG
Views:	3276
Size:	3.80 MB
ID:	2051892  


Last edited by hpergm; 12-03-2014 at 09:14 AM.
hpergm is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2014, 09:15 AM
  #31  
hpergm
 
hpergm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 354
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Initial runs here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzhi_NGeQwE
hpergm is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2014, 12:49 PM
  #32  
TomH
My Feedback: (4)
 
TomH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 104
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

its almost the end of the first week in dec. the motor was to hit the first week, if there is a rep watching this thread, you got any news for us who have one on order. I have already ordered my Keleo ring. please don't tell me this will turn into the EFI engine nightmare.
T
TomH is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2014, 05:35 PM
  #33  
DLEVETT
My Feedback: (13)
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: GUELPH, ON, CANADA
Posts: 830
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Saito fg60r3

Thanks for the vid.
It looks like its running really well.

Dave
DLEVETT is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2014, 11:18 PM
  #34  
hpergm
 
hpergm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 354
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Originally Posted by DLEVETT View Post
Thanks for the vid.
It looks like its running really well.
Dave
It's getting better by the minute! Seems like No.3 is too rich, while No.1 is slightly lean and No.2 somewhere in between.
Trick is to make No.3 run consistently (i.e. lean-er) without overleaning No.1 (risk of seizure).

One of the tricks I have tried in other Saito multis is to remove the ignition from the lean cylinder which is firing/is hot to allow the rich /non-firing/cold one to start firing and thereby expand and seal/seat the ring a bit better. Caution: not for prolonged periods! This rebalances the "unbroken-in" cylinders a bit faster..

Anyhow, I will follow closely the suggeted procedure in the manual (WOT <4,000), seems to allow the engine to improve rapidly (i.e. all cylinders firing but without risk of overheating).

FYI: Low needle is dominant, I was trying to richen the engine with the High but to no avail... a couple of turns on the low made all the difference.

Keleo is on the way - looking fwd to the difference in sound!

Last edited by hpergm; 12-03-2014 at 11:30 PM.
hpergm is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2014, 10:17 AM
  #35  
hpergm
 
hpergm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 354
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Keleo arrived and mounted. It works.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd1HBeBMQQI
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC_3952.jpg
Views:	2886
Size:	70.8 KB
ID:	2052381   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC_3953.jpg
Views:	2850
Size:	63.1 KB
ID:	2052382   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC_3954.jpg
Views:	2873
Size:	66.6 KB
ID:	2052383  
hpergm is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2014, 10:31 AM
  #36  
marksp
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (9)
 
marksp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 735
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Originally Posted by hpergm View Post
Keleo arrived and mounted. It works.
Wow...looks and sounds fantastic!

Cheers!
marksp is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2014, 06:25 PM
  #37  
Doolittleraider
My Feedback: (72)
 
Doolittleraider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: lakemary, FL
Posts: 645
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

considering putting one in top flite p-47 arf, will it fit?
Doolittleraider is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2014, 06:34 PM
  #38  
DLEVETT
My Feedback: (13)
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: GUELPH, ON, CANADA
Posts: 830
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

I too am considering the 60R3 for a TF P-47 even taking the step to make up a template to see if it will fit.
The template I made doesn't, so we will have to wait and see if someone with the engine in hand tries one out.

Dave
DLEVETT is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2014, 04:50 PM
  #39  
slither
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Gulfport, MS
Posts: 145
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Engines are here!!!

They are here! Just ordered one up and got the shipping notification that it's on its way... they had 10% off sale and I pounced ;-) Can't wait to hold and caress this baby!
slither is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2014, 03:38 AM
  #40  
TomH
My Feedback: (4)
 
TomH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 104
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Mine also is on the way, first is to take it apart and inspect. Merry Christmas to me! First flight will be the new Extreme Flight, 91" Yak. Can't wait.
TomH is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2014, 09:54 AM
  #41  
PCT
My Feedback: (3)
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 36
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Originally Posted by slither View Post
They are here! Just ordered one up and got the shipping notification that it's on its way... they had 10% off sale and I pounced ;-) Can't wait to hold and caress this baby!
Will you be so kind as to pdf the instruction and post it? I bought mine directly from RC Japan a few months ago. Everything was in Japanese.
PCT is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2014, 08:45 AM
  #42  
nicandre94
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: , FRANCE
Posts: 6
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Sorry, it's google translate.

Back for further adventures.
After breakin, I made the first flight and now is the time to talk about this engine.
I did the beginning of the running with mineral oil to 6%. This is the first time I did this on a gasoline engine, and probably the last because the engine oil was fed, . 1/4 32 plugs were struggling to burn all that oil. In short, I quickly returned to 100% synthetic Motul 5% and everything is back in order. I saw myself flying wrong with an engine that turned as a result of the oil potato.
I then mounted 3 Rimfire plug (80 euros ...) and began to adjust the settings. And there, be careful, because the optimal setting is very sharp to get. Everything is done against the needle at 1/8 turn around without exaggeration ... 1/8 more or less, and the engine is down. It runs on 2 cylinders for example. Once the idle and midrange OK, we refine the main needle. The carb Saito looks like a glow with a needle against the rudder, which does not facilitate access. I would have preferred a carburetor Walbro Type 2 external screw.
Despite a good experience in petrol engine, it took me a long time to get something good.
In the air, the engine pulls well, and pulls the 22x10 PT Model in 6350 rev / min. Slowed to 1500 rev / min. It is a bit less powerful than a DLE 55 (9kg tension on my peson against 10.5 kg for DLE). Finally, no timing has occurred. Inverted, the engine runs, unabated. And with the outside temperature (8 degrees on average), the rolls did not take more than 50 degrees to the 2 and 3 and 60 degrees to the 1.

After 5 flights:
+ melody
couple
slow motion
start-up
Weight (1800 g on the scales with pot)

- Candles 1/4 32 (no room for CM6)
Very sharp Carbu to solve

Following the next number.

Last edited by nicandre94; 12-21-2014 at 08:49 AM.
nicandre94 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2014, 11:42 AM
  #43  
hpergm
 
hpergm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 354
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Nicandre, merci pour le rapport détaillé! Très intéressant.

(Thanks for the detailed report - very interesting.).
hpergm is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2014, 08:22 PM
  #44  
marksp
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (9)
 
marksp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 735
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Originally Posted by nicandre94 View Post
...Once the idle and midrange OK, we refine the main needle.
interesting approach. Per the manual, the main needle is set first to achieve max RPM, then idle is dialed in with throttle valve (trim), then idle with the "slow speed" needle.

Did you try it that way?
marksp is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2014, 08:03 PM
  #45  
slither
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Gulfport, MS
Posts: 145
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Originally Posted by TomH View Post
Mine also is on the way, first is to take it apart and inspect. Merry Christmas to me! First flight will be the new Extreme Flight, 91" Yak. Can't wait.
We'll want a full report,Tom, including AUW, RPM, etc. Looking forward to hearing your results. I have been planning to put mine on an 88" Yak 55SP...
slither is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2015, 02:15 PM
  #46  
hpergm
 
hpergm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 354
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Originally Posted by marksp View Post
interesting approach. Per the manual, the main needle is set first to achieve max RPM, then idle is dialed in with throttle valve (trim), then idle with the "slow speed" needle.

Did you try it that way?
OK, I have had a similar experience. I repeat the post from another thread here:

Set-up:
1. SP-2 plug on top cylinder (smaller gap) and Rcexl plugs on the bottom cylinders (larger gaps to avoid fouling). Made sure plug caps were 100% securely seated on all plugs to rule-out misfiring from that source.
2. Changed Klotz Techniplate to Castrol Power 1 oil to avoid carbon build-up in No.1 and the huge oily mess from the exhaust evident in previous runs.
3. Changed oil ratio from 15:1 to 20:1 to improve combustion and avoid plug fouling.
4. High needles started @ 4 turns out and low needle @ 8 turns out (previous set-up from rich WOT running)
5.Prop is still an APC 22x10.

Observations:
1. Leaning the test stand ~20-35 degrees to either side at low to mid throttle does has an effect on cylinder temps when the engine is still rich; cylinder closer to the bottom will load-up and its temp will fall (misfires due to plug fouling most probably).
2. Low needle is dominant and the engine should be tuned by that - not the high. The high is relatively insensitive in most of the throttle travel and only affects maybe the top 5% of the throttle curve. The effect of the needle on the engine takes several seconds to take hold (i.e. requires a slow tuning reaction/decision).
3. Cylinder temps will balance only when the fuel mixture is close to optimum (i.e. leaned-out). Chance misfires/fouling will occur if engine is anywhere near rich.
4. After running the engine @ WOT for at least 2 minutes, with optimum mixture, cylinder temps will be balanced within less than 10% deviation at all subsequent throttle settings, including idle.
5. The only safe way to lean-out the engine (i.e. tune the low) is by observing temperatures near the peak rpm at 50-75% throttle; there is a "peak" regime where the rpm does not change much but temps will! Why this? Because a good state of tune basically matches cylinder behavior in terms of "misfires" (= non-explosions); for example, on one case, one of the cylinders may have many more misfires (= colder) than another (= hotter) while on another case, both cylinders will have an equal amount of misfire events and thus run at the same temps. However, in both cases, the average power output of the engine (rpm) will be the same...! A further indication of optimum tune is the absence of observation #1 above - little change in cylinder behavior while leaning the stand left or right with respect to horizontal.
6. After tuning the engine just so, there will be no misfires (plug fouling) at any throttle setting, no hesitation in transition. About 6,700rpm is achievable with a 22x10.

Video
(sorry for the quality and the stills - the camcorder also ran out of batt in the end...): http://youtu.be/ljXoNQvOFvA Based on my experience up to now, I would conclude that:
- The wider-gapped Rcexl plugs are perfect for this engine - avoid the small-gapped SP-2s, at least on the bottom cylinders

- Rotating the engine during initial rich running-in helps out tremendously. After lean-out, it is not really needed.

- The Castrol Oil gives out much less residue and seems to inhibit plug fouling. Also, the 20:1 ratio gives a better burn and less chance of fouling.

- The engine requires a good warm-up before achieving a perfect tune. The intake parts where the fuel is atomised and distributed need the temperature to atomise the fuel - the result will be even cylinder temps. Any rich running will cool the intake and will allow loading-up/richening and/or plug fouling of the bottom cylinders at different engine orientations. This is risky for flight. So, its good practice to run the engine @ WOT on the ground for 1-2 minutes. From idle to WOT, I found that it takes at least 30sec for cylinder temperatures to peak. The WOT running will heat-up the crankcase/inlet chamber to help good fuel gasification thereafter. Possibly also blow-out any residues from the plugs.

- The real trick is to tune the low by temperatures and not rpm. The high just needs to be open enough to provide enough fuel to the low. It is for this reason (mistake) that the top cylinder was a temperature runaway in the first runs (tuned the high first).
hpergm is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2015, 11:27 PM
  #47  
marksp
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (9)
 
marksp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 735
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Appreciate the thorough response.

I share many of your tuning recommendations (plugs, oil, warm up time, etc), but I've been struggling using the manual specified approach of tuning to max RPM by adjusting the high speed needle, then optimizing idle with low needle.

Ill reset set both needle to factory setting, then tune by your approach.

Cheers
marksp is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2015, 12:51 AM
  #48  
hpergm
 
hpergm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 354
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Mark, good luck. Just be very patient - takes more than 5-8 seconds for a tuning action to take effect in this regime. I found that 7 turns out on the Low and 5+ turns out on the High would be a safe starting point.

Here's a latest video indicating that a good tune/cylinder balance can be obtained from this engine all all throttle settings if the carb is tweaked properly. Temps are now read off the surface of the Keleo manifolds near the cylinder exhaust port (sort of an EGT but not really).

BR.
Hector.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XVHvinfnog

Last edited by hpergm; 01-30-2015 at 04:27 AM.
hpergm is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2015, 11:36 AM
  #49  
Alex70
Member
 
Alex70's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Spain
Posts: 45
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Awesome, the perfect method to choke Saito FG-60

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq-37pPYzWM
Alex70 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2015, 01:40 PM
  #50  
Alex70
Member
 
Alex70's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Spain
Posts: 45
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Hi hpergm, have you done any tests with supplied pressure nipple of Keleo ring connected to fuel tank vent? How does the engine runs better? ¿Pressurized tank or without pressurizing? any difference in rpm or throttle response?

Last edited by Alex70; 02-19-2015 at 01:51 PM.
Alex70 is offline  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service