luckymacy

What make/model/size prop and what max sustainable rpm?

BobH

My Feedback: (2)

Try Adrian for the Ignition wiring. I'd send it in to him and ask him to repair it.
He's a good guy ..
He's at www.ch-ignition.com

slither

The welds on that thing look horrible! However, I wonder if the performance on that is better than the Keleo ring, as we have a report from Aquaskiman that the standard exhaust performs better than the Keleo ring.

aquaskiman

My Feedback: (46)

I am running a 22X10 Xore at 5400 ft I get 6600 RMP

ALFIEV

Thanks for the heads up! I guess that would have been the next thing to happen for me, I did wrap the Keleo with heat wrap to try to keep the temps down in the cowl. Glad to hear you saved the model!!

SWORDSN

My Feedback: (13)

Lots of good dos and don'ts on this thread.

femmo

I'm in the "planning and saving money phase" for my new project what should become an enlarged to 1/6 Ziroli B-25.
I was considering to use 2 Saito 60r3's
However the breaking cylinder stories are scary...if 1 engine fails on a twin....what will happen??

Its a shame because I was really looking fwd to this sight.

https://youtu.be/nC0mAaKpU7U

What to do now?

slither

Go for it... no reason to think that yours won't work just as well. But put some flaps on that thing!

SWORDSN

My Feedback: (13)

I have the 101 " and the cowls are to small for the fg60.What size are you considering?

femmo

Enlarged to 1/6 makes 134"

cathurga

Having had some experience with the FG60, I would say that the cracking cylinder problem is most likely not a huge concern. True, there have been a few failures, and probably a lot of them could have been avoided, including if Saito had made the bolt 'lugs' a little stronger, but there are many factors at play. I would never try to pass myself off as an expert in the field of Saito engines, in fact, very far from it. But I will say this, and there are probably a few people who have had the failure, that might agree with me.
The cylinder bolts are tightened at the factory, when the engine is cold, and probably not to a torque spec either. You just have to look at how you need to get at them....an allen wrench (normal 'L'-shaped variety) has to be cut off in order to reach them. I imagine very few people have taken the time to cut one off and check those bolts. Again, not pointing fingers here....just observations. I bought a second hand engine from someone on this forum, who had a failure. He did a good job of repairing the engine and when I got it, the only thing I was not satisfied with, was that he had used some home made gaskets (understandable when you see how difficult it is to get a set from vendor or distributor). I also wanted to put temp sensing probes on, so I went through the process of lifting all the cylinders, one at a time, and replacing the gaskets, and probes went on No1 and No2. I closed it all up, and tightened the bolts up. Previous owner had put slightly longer bolts, with spring washers. I thought it to be a good option, so put it all back as is. Since then, it has done two 15 minute runs on the ground while doing tuning. It idles reliably at 1550 rpm, and tops out at 6350 with a 22x10 El Cheapo prop on it. Transition is good, and it is running smoothly. After the second session, I took it back to the pits and got my cut off allen wrench and got between 1/4 and a 1/2 turn into those EACH of those bolts! That to me is a LOT! Just by being warmed up. I imagine that anyone who failed to do this after initial break in and some running, would be taking a risk. I am hoping that I wont see the problem, but I will most likely build all planes that these engines go into, with as easy cowl access as possible in order to routinely check these bolts, and do valve clearance checks.
Not saying ALL incidents could have been avoided, but I am pretty sure some of them are as a direct result of this. Having the Keleo exhaust also makes getting to the rearmost bolts, just that bit harder, and those are then likely to be neglected...

Just my $0.02

femmo

Thank you for your reply!
What you say is the bolts stretch during initial runs and have to be tightened again?
Do you use a torque wrench? Edit stupid question....no...a cut of allen key...

cathurga

Yeah, no torque wrench can be used there, as far as I know. I don't know if it is the bolts stretching, but more about how the metals expand when hotter. The cylinders are cast or something like that, and the crankcase is machined. I am not a metallurgist but I expect they are expanding/contracting at different rates and this leads to them loosening a little during first runs. I don't know whether each engine is tested or not, if so, probably make sure it turns over and then send it out....They probably tighten everything up but after the first runs, they start loosening a bit, and all of a sudden you have slight play. Even the slightest play would result in that area cracking, especially considering it is supposed to not just resist vibration, but the stress of multiple little explosions at each firing stroke, as well as the compression.
The same logic about tightening when it is hot, applies to exhausts too. On my DLE engines, I usually tighten them down when they are halfway between cold and operating temps, this stops them coming loose. I dunno if you have seen what happens to some exhausts when they rattle loose, but some of them just bust welds and make a mess of the flange the exhaust sits on.

I am not applying high levels of science here, just a bit of logic and common sense. Whether right or wrong, it may or may not, result in one of my cylinders cracking. The noteworthy, and worrying thing about the cases so far, is that they all seem to be on Cyl 2. Some say they have made sure to tighten before flights where the failure has taken place, but what is tight for one man, might not be enough for the next. The face that you are using a tool that is not normally standard, I think most of us would be concerned about stripping the hex before overtightening.....strip on of those, and you are getting the grinder out, and even then, not so simple to get to without major care being taken....

scubaozy

Cathurga, I think you are giving wrong advice. My engine had all the bolts tight before and after the damage, I think I had posted the pictures right after the incident. There is no indication bolts are causing the problem. I do not recommend this engine for such project as 1/6 B25. Having said that, considering I got my failure with 50 flights, engine might still last longer than the airframe. In Germany there are many more reports of failures reported recently. The fact is, there are engine problems going on out there and there is no statement from the producer/distributer. This engine is filling up a sweet spot with accessible price and amazing experience of a radial engine and many of us including me are tempted to take the risk thinking these are probably just isolated cases. My advice is following: if you are in US, you might try your chances as Horizon will replace the broken engine without a fuss. But then, use it on a tf or H9 arf, not on a Ziroli or a scratch build you put in so much. If you are in Europe or rest of the world, support from dealer and distributor is very poor. My engine was sent to Japan for repairs, not replaced, and it took 3 months to get it back. Now the season is over and if I have the problem next season, I don't even have a warranty anymore. So, I will be on my own to deal with the problem. So I advise against buying this engine unless Saito makes a statement and gives necessary warnings.

femmo

Huge sigh....and a tear...

I'm afraid you are right...
I should change plan to 2nd best...laser 240V engines.

Well my "luck" is that I have huge saving to do for these engines while cutting parts and making molds.
Maybe time will be on my side and something will change...

luckymacy

You should have planned to use Kolm engines from the start since you have so much luck. Superior to saito in the first place. ��

femmo

Thats to much luck....factor 2 actually
A mult cylinder kolm is 2400 euros and the Saito just under 1100....

luckymacy

You get what u pay for though. A couple of their smallest boxer twins would be awesome performance and sound

femmo

well off course so is the sound of a Ferrari V12...I drive an 11yrs old Ford Focus. Kolm is out of my league, the Saito could just be streched in. were talking years of budget saving here.

Well back on topic now

luckymacy

https://www.hobbyking.com/en_us/torq...oke-cycle.html

then you'd still getter bang for your buck with these and have saved...

found the the link of The maiden flight

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xBfQYlHmHag#action=share

cathurga

Scubaozy, as I mentioned in my post, I am going on personal experience. I never suggested that my experience should be construed as advice. I was merely putting the issue in a context of MY experience. If its advice on whether to buy them for his project or not, I would probably say no. This is not a result of the cracking cylinder issue, it simply because I don't think this engine (or its bigger and smaller siblings) have been through enough R&D. There are MANY concepts about this engine, that I believe are potential failure points. This includes the problems experienced by the larger FG84 that was brought out without things like an efficient induction system, lack of bush/bearing on the main crank and insufficient lubrication allowances on the upper valve train on Cyl 1.These are basically 3 glow engine designs, converted to gasoline, bolted to a common crank and case. Its not ideal. Also, lubrication of the crankcase is reliant on ONLY what blow by the piston...using 2-stroke oils that are designed to burn off as much as possible in the combustion process, is not going to leave enough to get to the extremities, running a richer mix is going to help, but will also result in more fouling of the plugs. There are many things wrong with these engines in my opinion and there even discussions on the validity of the timing. Only Saito would know better, and they have just released the FG90 as a replacement for the dud FG84.....with lots of new mods etc.
My engine was as dry as a bone when I got it, so I put raw oil into the crankcase to get things lubed up before running it. Only a little bit went in, probably 25ml but I shudder to think how much damage could have been done with nothing in there. The bolts holding MY cylinder down, were tightened after the first run in tank, and much like the 2nd hand one I bought, required (IMHO) excessive tightening.
People, if you think my findings are pure BS, by all means make your own decisions.
My engine is currently in a cheap Yak-55 airframe that I care very little about, it was bought for running in and is continuing to do service while I 'tinker' with this engine if I don't get some positive results, it will stay in this frame for good, and I will not be spending large sums of money to repair it when it breaks. The other engine I have, has done break in, and will sit in a box until I am confident it will gain the right fuel/oil mix, run cool enough in my summer temps, and hopefully not expel a cylinder.
Again, not ADVICE on what you or anyone else should do.....just my experience.
They sound fantastic, and there are plenty of reports by people who are running the nuts off them with no failures.....I wish I was one of them. If I got 200 flights out of this engine, in a great warbird frame, I would have called it a good 'investment'.

I really don't know of any similarly priced engine that would do what this does, so it is a shame. More alarming is that a reputable company like Saito would err like this, but that's where my blame goes to Horizon, a bunch of money grubbing suits, who have used corporate pressure to get this to market, at the expense of Saito's longstanding name in the market.

There, I said it...

scubaozy

'
Cathurga, when I read this statement and rest of the comments I do see a generalization and not a lot of facts. I think we all agree that "experience" is different than "opinion". So, your experience is bolts get loose with heat, fine but this is already in the manual and we all know this and I have checked them regularly and telling you that my cylinder cracked without any loosened bolts. Noone was able to explain so far why cylinder #1 was not cracked, even though it is the hottest cylinder and should have the loosened bolts at the first place. These are all theories, but one fact is that it is inconceivable that a cylinder case will crack during normal usage. Secondly, this is not a DLE 55 where everyday hundreds of examples are sold. I will never know what are the actual sales numbers vs failures but I do not remember reading a cracked cylinder say in dle threads.
I am following quite interesting discussions in other forums and currently being discussed theory is hydrolock because of too much oil in crankcase. Some people believe that breathing nipple is too small (this is also opinion of an expert reviewing fg33 on a magazine) and blowby oil is much more than we think. Consider this theory when injecting oil on crankcase. At the end, there are no reports of seized conrods, so, this may suggest that there is enough oil going through.

femmo

Concidering asp 400 gas conversion bu just engines....

cathurga

In my post earlier, I mentioned that Saito could have made the 'lugs' a little stronger. Again, no idea what R&D went into the engines, or how long they were tested for. Maybe time testing might have revealed something to them. I would love to get a look at the lugs on the new FG90, might tell some tales, although the 84 seemed to not have any/many failures in that area. If you want to go on about semantics, i.e experience/opinion, be my guest. I tend to take my experiences, and form an opinion based on those experiences. Its not to say I am right, its merely my opinion. This is not a dogmatic approach that says 'my way, or no way', if someone is out there who can convince me otherwise, then I am open to their expression of opinion. I understand you tightened the bolts, and if we had a yardstick (or torque value for that matter) to measure how tight yours was done, compared to others, then we could assume that you/I/everyone else had tightened to manufacturer spec. I said earlier that I was as concerned about stripping something as I was about getting them tight enough. I also mentioned that one of my engines now has slightly longer bolts, with spring washers on them. Whether good or bad....dunno. I'll let you know when/if they cause a cylinder to crack. I doubt I will even bother trying to repair it if that is the case, especially on one that has already 'let go' for the previous owner.
Interesting commentary on the crankcase being too full, or there not being enough to let the oil out, I assume this is on a German forum, and if I understood the language, I would like to read about it and see what opinions are formed there. Ill rely on you to keep us up to date. Just looking at the location of the vent nipple, its weird to me that they put it where it is, it is nowhere near the lowest point of the crankcase, so the area where the crank is moving, is likely to 'fill up' over time. Given that if the engine is in a taildragger plane, gravity will see to it that the oils in there will drop down into the cylinders, past the rings, and collect in the combustion chamber while being stored...certainly a candidate for a hydrolock. But you would expect that to happen at start up. The chap that I bought the second engine from, stated that it was still running, albeit not very well, and only when he shut it down after a flight, did the cylinder crack become apparent...
I don't intend to start arguments of any sort, I would like to find some solutions to this engines shortcomings, not because I am upset at having a potential demon in my presence, but because it interests me....I am with you all the way....

marksp

My Feedback: (9)

I may have stated this before and still find it potentially related and interesting. After having Ray English apply his intake plenum mod to my FG-33R3 and knowing he licensed his design to Saito for the FG-60R3 I was excited to pick up this engine for a 50cc size warbird. I reached out to him to clarify oil preferences and let him know I had an FG-60 coming. He shared with me that although the FG-60R3 did in fact incorporate his redesigned intake plenum for fuel routing, Saito unfortunately designed in too much volume for optimal operation.

He offers an intake mod that reduces fuel volume resulting in a better performing engine (with up to 500 additional RPM).

I'm not promoting, just wondering if there is a link between Ray's early analysis of excessive fuel, and speculation of internal pressure related failures???