Saito FG-60R3
07-28-2017, 06:40 PM
#1551
Please tell us more! What does the propeller drive hub have to do with cylinder temperatures? I do have access to a Fluke thermal imager. I might give it a try. Did not think about it. Thanks.
07-28-2017, 07:38 PM
#1553
I haven't flown or measured the thrust, but a simple ground test using the Biela semi-scale 4 carbon blade 19x8x4 yielded 6300RPM (about 500 less than 22x10). Here's a link to video of someone who gave it a try - https://youtu.be/-NdzyXmuzwo
Cheers
Cheers
07-28-2017, 10:17 PM
#1554
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Of the three cylinders only one for accuracy the nr 2 has the exact ignition advance (28 degrees) the nr 2-22 degrees and finally the nr 3 17 degrees, this is due to the position of the magnets on the puller put at 120 degrees One at the other, while the pistons actually have the highest dead points (pms) not at 120 degrees because of how the shaft and rods are built.
07-29-2017, 05:06 AM
#1556
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sorry im in the wrong post
Last edited by deadstick79; 07-29-2017 at 05:09 AM. Reason: answered wrong post
07-29-2017, 05:10 AM
#1557
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Dan
07-29-2017, 08:36 PM
#1559
Can someone go through the mechanical analysis on the geometric inaccuracies of the rod design? I would enjoy to seeing that, as well.
07-31-2017, 01:04 PM
#1560
My Feedback: (3)
Compression Feel When Turning Prop By Hand Question
How many compression strokes do you guys feel when turning your prop over slowly? I only feel two, one hArder and one thats slightly softer. I assumed I would feel three but I started thinking that the pistons all reach compression at almost the same time, so you won't feel three distinct spots of compression per revolution.
Just wondering. My stock FG-60R3 is still running and flying beautiful. My favorite engine.
My FG-19R3 isn't as impressive though!
Just wondering. My stock FG-60R3 is still running and flying beautiful. My favorite engine.
My FG-19R3 isn't as impressive though!
08-01-2017, 10:48 AM
#1562
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I tried to give this question to so Saito could make this change trough the Swedish agent but they did`t catch it all and not even want to help so I gave up Saito.
08-05-2017, 07:18 PM
#1563
Of the three cylinders only one for accuracy the nr 2 has the exact ignition advance (28 degrees) the nr 2-22 degrees and finally the nr 3 17 degrees, this is due to the position of the magnets on the puller put at 120 degrees One at the other, while the pistons actually have the highest dead points (pms) not at 120 degrees because of how the shaft and rods are built.
08-06-2017, 12:47 AM
#1564
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This is very interesting indeed, I would like to learn more about this. I know that the main rod and the slaves' location would make timing a little different, and if this is the case then the magnets should NOT be 120Deg apart, there should be subtle difference.
I have no doubt that if this were corrected, the engine would perform better, but I am also surprised that Saito didn't know this. Do you think they would have ignored it?
I have no doubt that if this were corrected, the engine would perform better, but I am also surprised that Saito didn't know this. Do you think they would have ignored it?
08-06-2017, 12:50 AM
#1565
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Interesting subject about ignition point, i am breaking in a FG-60R3 also. I measured my ignition timing and found this:
Cylinder 1 --> ~24 BTDC
Cylinder 2 --> ~29 BTDC
Cylinder 3 --> ~19 BTDC
Timing difference between 1 and 3 is 10 degrees, so you should expect cylinder 2 will be hottest cylinder 3 coolest and cylinder 1 in between. In practice cylinder 1 is getting hottest and cylinder 3 is coolest.
I am asking myself what to do because 10 degrees timing difference is a lot imo, ore is the CDI taking care of this difference?
There is also an other theory by "hpergm" that says you have to adjust carefully with a temp sensing tool, see quote.
He got temps on all 3 cylinders equal at all RPM's
Rob.
- The engine requires a good warm-up before achieving a perfect tune. The intake parts where the fuel is atomised and distributed need the temperature to atomise the fuel - the result will be even cylinder temps. Any rich running will cool the intake and will allow loading-up/richening and/or plug fouling of the bottom cylinders at different engine orientations. This is risky for flight. So, its good practice to run the engine @ WOT on the ground for 1-2 minutes. From idle to WOT, I found that it takes at least 30sec for cylinder temperatures to peak. The WOT running will heat-up the crankcase/inlet chamber to help good fuel gasification thereafter. Possibly also blow-out any residues from the plugs.
- The real trick is to tune the low by temperatures and not rpm. The high just needs to be open enough to provide enough fuel to the low. It is for this reason (mistake) that the top cylinder was a temperature runaway in the first runs (tuned the high first).
Cylinder 1 --> ~24 BTDC
Cylinder 2 --> ~29 BTDC
Cylinder 3 --> ~19 BTDC
Timing difference between 1 and 3 is 10 degrees, so you should expect cylinder 2 will be hottest cylinder 3 coolest and cylinder 1 in between. In practice cylinder 1 is getting hottest and cylinder 3 is coolest.
I am asking myself what to do because 10 degrees timing difference is a lot imo, ore is the CDI taking care of this difference?
There is also an other theory by "hpergm" that says you have to adjust carefully with a temp sensing tool, see quote.
He got temps on all 3 cylinders equal at all RPM's
Rob.
- The engine requires a good warm-up before achieving a perfect tune. The intake parts where the fuel is atomised and distributed need the temperature to atomise the fuel - the result will be even cylinder temps. Any rich running will cool the intake and will allow loading-up/richening and/or plug fouling of the bottom cylinders at different engine orientations. This is risky for flight. So, its good practice to run the engine @ WOT on the ground for 1-2 minutes. From idle to WOT, I found that it takes at least 30sec for cylinder temperatures to peak. The WOT running will heat-up the crankcase/inlet chamber to help good fuel gasification thereafter. Possibly also blow-out any residues from the plugs.
- The real trick is to tune the low by temperatures and not rpm. The high just needs to be open enough to provide enough fuel to the low. It is for this reason (mistake) that the top cylinder was a temperature runaway in the first runs (tuned the high first).
08-06-2017, 04:57 AM
#1566
Of the three cylinders only one for accuracy the nr 2 has the exact ignition advance (28 degrees) the nr 2-22 degrees and finally the nr 3 17 degrees, this is due to the position of the magnets on the puller put at 120 degrees One at the other, while the pistons actually have the highest dead points (pms) not at 120 degrees because of how the shaft and rods are built.
08-06-2017, 11:51 PM
#1567
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George, it may be simpler to find TDC of each cylinder, and then place a mark on the hub where the TDC point is, and then measure back to where the magnet sets off the ignition. I assume this is how people are finding the misalignment of the existing timing (if it is in fact, misaligned). This topic came up a while back and peaked my interest. Its seems relevant.
Merlin also raises the point that maybe the CDI is 'compensating' for the timing defecit, and it stands to reason that the clever people that designed the engine would have thought about this, but then again, maybe not. We know that these CDI's compensate for advancement/retardation as revs increase, but whether or not they are practically doing this to compensate for the rod alignment is unknown.
Having the ignition fire in a retarded state i.e at 19Deg instead of 28Deg would make for a very different power stroke application. Just take a single cyl gasser and move its timing to 19Deg and see what happens.....its not going to run efficiently at all.
I'm hoping we are all very wrong about this, because it would mean that we have to replace the hub/magnet setup, which is not a simple thing to do if you don't have access to the expertise to machine a new one.
Merlin also raises the point that maybe the CDI is 'compensating' for the timing defecit, and it stands to reason that the clever people that designed the engine would have thought about this, but then again, maybe not. We know that these CDI's compensate for advancement/retardation as revs increase, but whether or not they are practically doing this to compensate for the rod alignment is unknown.
Having the ignition fire in a retarded state i.e at 19Deg instead of 28Deg would make for a very different power stroke application. Just take a single cyl gasser and move its timing to 19Deg and see what happens.....its not going to run efficiently at all.
I'm hoping we are all very wrong about this, because it would mean that we have to replace the hub/magnet setup, which is not a simple thing to do if you don't have access to the expertise to machine a new one.
08-07-2017, 06:45 AM
#1568
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Rob.
08-07-2017, 08:26 AM
#1569
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I've been reading along this thread as I have this engine in a plane I've built for a friend. It hasn't been run much but has run beautifully with no issues at all. If it matters this one came through Ray English. It's been trouble free. I also have a 30cc version of this engine also through Ray. Haven't run it yet but plan to before the season ends.
Rick H.
Rick H.
08-13-2017, 06:19 PM
#1570
Good point!
Ok Guys lets think about this. The rod angle is different from the main rod to the other two. That would make the degrees different from the main rod to the others. The only way to check timing between the cylinders correctly would to measure distance before TDC. So I would build a adjustable piston stop check the main rod piston at 28 deg set piston stop to that, than check the other two. I hope you understand this.
08-14-2017, 08:18 AM
#1571
Potentially, but not necessarily. It might only change the piston speed before and after TDC, depending on the geometry. As you say, the only way to verify this is to use a piston stop and put a degree wheel on it, with a pointer, to check to see the relationship between ignition and TDC for each jug. I am not likely to have time to do this in the next couple of months, due to time constraints... not to mention that I do not have a degree wheel. If anyone has a degree wheel, this would be interesting info! They're are not hard to make...
08-31-2017, 05:00 PM
#1574
I am not impressed with the Saito gas radials. Just took apart a 60cc of my friends after it had seized on the fourth flight in a TF 47. He sent it back to Horizon to get it repaired under warranty and they told him it wasn't covered because he had the Ray English mods done. I took it apart to see what damage it had received. He ran it on the recommended cool power oil and at the recommended ratio. I found that the master rod had broken and one of the rods had broken. Looked like the con rod had seized on the master rod and broken both. This happened with no warning. There was plenty of oil in the crankcase. I was shocked at the small size of the connecting rod lower bearing area. It was a lot smaller than it could have been. The failure appeared to be on the master rod side where the master rod had broken in the area where the con rod pin connected to the master rod. There is just not enough beef in that area for the pin to ride on the master rod. Ray English is rebuilding the engine for him at no charge, he just has to supply the parts. Ray went to bat with Horizon for him but no go. While it was running the war bird guys in our club where very unimpressed with the performance. Normally we all fly G-62's in the 47 or maybe a eme 55 or 60. Either of these will run rings around the Saito. I would say you would need the 90 cc version to get equal performance. He replaced the Saito with a G-62 and speed went up by 20+ mph as clocked with a radar gun.
Larry
Larry
Also, he mentioned something interesting about the Cool Power oil: apparently, the formulation recently has changed; that, according to Craig, Horizon does not recommend and is not going to be carrying said oil; and that he (meaning Ray) is not recommending it, either. While Red Line is being recommended by Horizon, it is not recommended by Ray. He said his testing resulted in less than satisfactory results with the Red Line. Ray now recommends the Klotz Super Techniplate KL-200 exclusively. He said to stay away from the Klotz special RC oil, as that is for the chainsaw type engines. I am planning to purchase some, and when I get around to running it, I will report on my experiences.
Additionally, he reported some details on a larger Saito radial that is to be released in the near future... and this one sounds quite good!
Last edited by slither; 08-31-2017 at 05:04 PM.