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Saito FG-60R3

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Old 10-27-2018, 07:29 AM
  #1851  
757jonp
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Very interesting indeed!
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Old 10-28-2018, 01:00 AM
  #1852  
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Ok, some updates on my situation:
I pulled the prop hub off the other day, and noticed that the tapered collet that goes between the hub and the crank, has striations on it, meaning it has moved between the hub and the crankshaft. The collet also had an 'indentation' on it where the locating pin has been forced against it. I cleaned up the collet and reinstalled everything, making sure everything was lined up. then went about the timing again, and got TDC. I then managed to get the timing set up as 28Deg BTDC when the magnet was moving AWAY from the hall sensor in running direction. To do this, I had to ADVANCE the hall sensor as much as possible. It is at it stops, and this is the SAME way, I would time any engine...DLE's etc...and any other single cyl engine. Now, and this is the confusing part, have a look at this diagram on CH-Ignitions website.


In this picture you can CLEARLY see the difference. He is saying that the ignition needs to be when the BEEP/LED occurs when the magnet first APPROACHES the hall sensor.....This is not possible with my engine, as the hall sensor cannot retard that much. I measured what the angle would be if this were possible, and it would be about 40 Deg BEFORE TDC if following normal timing practice.

Now I know that this is not the Saito Ignition, this drawing is in reference to the CH-Ignitions/RCXcel set up, and I dont know how the inner workings of the two differ....but they sell the timing kit as a universal for ignitions, and the pic above, is diferent to the procedure they have of single cyl engines....which is the same way that I described above.

I am confused now....
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Old 10-28-2018, 04:21 AM
  #1853  
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Contact CH ignitions and ask the question to an "experts" there. Arm chair experts here on RCU can be suspect.
I realize your location but I would suggest boxing this up and shipping to Japan for them to sort out. Unless your hobby is tinkering with engines.
I prefer to have my engines running in flying airplanes and not bookends
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Old 10-28-2018, 11:20 PM
  #1854  
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I hear what you are saying, and I have sent a message to Adrien, hopefully he will be able to shed some light on it.

That said, he may be able to answer the question IF i was using one of HIS "CH Ignitition Module for 3-cyl engines", but whether that is relevant to the Saito ignition or not, is not known.

Physically, ANY engine will run OK at 28Deg Btdc if the auto-advance intelligence in the firmware is catering for the advancment and timing of the spark, but there is nowhere mentioned how the advance/retard mechanisms work on these ignition modules.
Some say that under 1000rpm they fire on every instance of the magnet passing, as they go over that threshold, the oppposite polarity magnet starts resetting the firing order, and then over another rev threshold they advance to a certain point, maybe 10deg BTDC at 2000-3000rpm, and then over that, they advance to 28Deg BTDC for the rest of the rev range.
Others say that they continue to spark at every revolution (creating a 'waste-spark' when not on compresison stroke) and that only the timing advances. There are others with different theories......but I suppose without the manufacturers chiming in, we dont know.
Anyway, I will continue to ask away.

Just BTW, if you advance the timing too much, you get burnt pistons, and potentially, damaged cylinders (ring any bells?) as a result. Which is why I would prefer to be accurate on this. Having timing retarded too much could mean loss of power, burnt/carboned exhaust valves and loss of power (symptoms I am experiencing). So would like to get this resolved.

Regards
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Old 10-29-2018, 12:51 PM
  #1855  
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I have also checked this web page ch ignitions and have one timing check kit on order.
Expecting timing to be 28-30 on my new Saito fg60r3 engine on each cylinder.
I am also confused on how to check single and multi cylinder engine's timing after checking ch ignitions
web page. I think It is important to have correct timing on every engine and after reading abbout some problem with this engine with cracked cylinder. I think it is important to have correct timing, take time to adjust for no stress on cylinder if using ring muffler and baffles cooilng of cylinder and crankcase. I going to use telemetry to check temprature on each cylinder and crankcase.





Last edited by F3A Nordic; 10-29-2018 at 12:53 PM.
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Old 10-29-2018, 08:00 PM
  #1856  
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If your engine is running close to spec don't start messing with stuff to make it better. Putting temp on the cly will be fine but if it ain't broke don't fix it.
Mine has picked up at least 500 RPM since new.
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Old 10-31-2018, 11:28 PM
  #1857  
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I hear you, and understand the concept of 'leave well alone' LOL!

But, and this is the big BUT, if people (Morris, RcXel, CH_Ignition) are all saying you need to time multi-cyl engines differently than singles or twins that fire on the same stroke, then that means that the timing on these engine is OUT. People blowing up their engines is a common things with them, and stepping closer to to finding out WHY, is a good thing. Many suggestions WHY include Hydrolock, Ignition timing, Exhaust stresses, Overheating, bad mettallurgy and a host of other things. Its really unnerving knowing that your expensive engine could disintegrate at any time.....
I am aksing for the people that know (and I have been engaged in a number of discussions with people) to get a flag in the ground as the WHERE the timing needs to be.... and I dont have that yet.
I understand that being 'out' by a few degrees is not going to do any harm really, but if the case is that they are being timed at the wrong point, by anything up to 12Deg in my case, then yeah.....it would go a long way to explain why cylinders are breaking, and in my case, exhaust valves carboned up, lack of power and over heating...

Just curious I supposed. I dont have the luxury of just 'shipping it back'.

Anyway, I also just want to FLY the damned planes, its winter here and FLYING TIME!! LOL!
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Old 11-01-2018, 07:54 AM
  #1858  
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I've been to Dubai Many times.
I flew at El Ain airshow in 2007 with my unlimited race plane detuned with a stock DA-150.
I agree the heat and humidity 9 months of the year is something most people don't really understand until it is experienced!
Ray English would be the guy to contact as he is the one who went through my engine and "fixed it"
If anyone understands the timing on the thing he would be the one to contact.
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Old 11-01-2018, 06:12 PM
  #1859  
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I agree that Ray is a great resource for you... you could ship it to him for a consult. Of course the down side is money and flying down-time. Life gets in the way...
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Old 11-02-2018, 09:13 AM
  #1860  
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Sparky,
Good that you know the place, and have flown here. Al-Ain is a great facility and there are some good guys that fly there. I havent flown there myself, but have been out a few times, its a long drive there, so fly at the local place instead. Also got a good runway and decent facilities.

I dont have Ray's details, if you would forward to me in a PM, that would be great.

I have a DLE 30 that gets wrung out a bit, in an Aeroworks Edge540 and that thing barely goes over 125DegC unless its a really hot day, so I know that decent temps are obtainable, but you need correct cooling, mix set right and timing of course....

I just want to be 100% sure that where it is, as stock, is where it is supposed to be. At the moment, Im not sure. Certainly not questioning how it was built, but maybe there is some weight to the argument that timing may be, unintentionally, out.

I have a thread on the 'other' forum where my FG40 had the problem with the sheared locator pin, and that caused me a lot of heartache before I got it sorted. Essentially, its a design flaw...not really a flaw, just susceptible to failure. That might indicate problems like this may exist elsewhere, ..in the timing for instance.

Just by the way, in a discussion with RcXel who apparently build these ignition systems for Saito....they say the same...timing happens when the magnet APPROACHES the sensor, not like a single cyl. In this case, again, I cannot get near that timing, as a result of the physical limitation of the hall sensor location.

Go figure...
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Old 11-02-2018, 11:30 AM
  #1861  
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Hello guys,

Just received my new Saito FG60R3.
I can confirm that the new piston design is implemented in my engine .

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Old 11-02-2018, 07:11 PM
  #1862  
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Originally Posted by Didier View Post
Hello guys,

Just received my new Saito FG60R3.
I can confirm that the new piston design is implemented in my engine .

I have the new pistons in mine also.
Jeff
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Old 11-03-2018, 05:26 AM
  #1863  
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Morris mini motor have made a video with some information regarding timing on this engine.
.
conlusion stock engine timing not perfect.

Last edited by F3A Nordic; 11-03-2018 at 08:56 AM.
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Old 11-03-2018, 08:40 AM
  #1864  
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I watched the video.
OK I get the timing issue it would have been nice to see what his max RPM was on this prop since that's what I'm running, Talking over the engine was garbage
I couldn't understand him.
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Old 11-04-2018, 11:50 PM
  #1865  
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Is it me, or has he got it wrong? If he’s moving the magnet further AWAY from TDC (clockwise)then he is ADVANCING the timing, right?
He says that as stock, the timing is too advanced, and then he advances it further.... maybe I need to check my facts but I thought that moving the firing point closer to TDC in the motion of the engine turning it, then you are retarding the timing.
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Old 11-05-2018, 02:55 AM
  #1866  
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Originally Posted by cathurga View Post
Is it me, or has he got it wrong? If he’s moving the magnet further AWAY from TDC (clockwise)then he is ADVANCING the timing, right?
He says that as stock, the timing is too advanced, and then he advances it further.... maybe I need to check my facts but I thought that moving the firing point closer to TDC in the motion of the engine turning it, then you are retarding the timing.
You are correct regarding your statement bringing the firing point closer to TDC is retarding timing.

What he tries to explain in the video is at 30 degree before TDC the magnet should be slightly to the right in regards to the sensor (facing engine). Out of the box at 30 degree before TDC the magnet is already passed the sensor. Slightly to the left.
As the magnet has a fixed position, you have to bring the sensor Counter clockwise.

Last edited by Didier; 11-05-2018 at 02:58 AM.
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Old 11-06-2018, 08:57 PM
  #1867  
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You are correct! the new version of the piston design is improved! I bought is too early......
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Old 11-08-2018, 11:55 AM
  #1868  
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Have now checked timing on my new engine.
First i used the instructions from ch ignitions to check radial engine ( when green light come on)
Timing cyl 1 45,5. Cyl 2. 51. Cyl 3. 39,5.

Connected ignition system and checked spark , did found spark is at same time as green light is going
off on timing checker. Timing is Cyl 1 20. Cyl 2. 26,6. Cyl 3. 14,5.
I think with this ignition Box and using timing checker timing is when green light goes off.
Due to connecting Rod design Tdc is not symetrical 120+120+120=360 .
Found it cylinder 1-3 126. Cylinder 1-2 126. Cylinder 2-3 108.
If no program in ignition box engine is not going to have same timing on each cylinder.
Have checked piston and it is the new design piston.



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Old 11-08-2018, 01:41 PM
  #1869  
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Originally Posted by F3A Nordic View Post

Connected ignition system and checked spark , did found spark is at same time as green light is going
off on timing checker. Timing is Cyl 1 20. Cyl 2. 26,6. Cyl 3. 14,5.



Is this maybe due to the fact the engine is not started yet so the ignition is retarded?
So we have to find a compromise in regards of timing due to connecting rod geometry is not symetrical.
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Old 11-09-2018, 01:22 AM
  #1870  
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I have been in some mutual discussion with Morris at Morris mini motors, and have watched his most recent videos on this engine, and it seems he is also experiencing odd timing. He double checked with RCxel and they state that the timing is taken from when the magnet approaches hall sensor.....this has been repeated to me a number of times, the same with Adrien at CH-Ignitions.

Here's a little video I made earlier today. Apologies for the bad quality and the excessive 'beeping'...

In my opinion, someone, either at Saito or RcXel needs to come up with the RIGHT way of timing these things, with a reasonable explanation.

There are 3 ways to fix this, if I am right.
  • Drill new holes in the crankcase to mount the hall sensor - Undesirable, requires major engine time, including gasket sets as they DO NOT come off the cylinders, also requires machining.
  • Create a new prop hub with timing locations changed - If they admitted it was a problem, and sent me a new one, I would be happy
  • Make a hall sensor mount that will put the sensor in the right place relative.... probably the easiest way of doing this.
This is only possible if someone agrees that the timing is out, and in my VERY HUMBLE opinion, I think its wrong as is.

Heres the vid..

BTW, TDC is where it is, I pulled the prop hub, and did the normal way of checking for TRUE TDC...its where it is....


Last edited by cathurga; 11-09-2018 at 01:27 AM.
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Old 11-09-2018, 07:00 AM
  #1871  
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I would be nice if some people from saito factory team could give some help to sort out issue regarding
timing. But if you connect ignition box and igniter plugs and have spark close to 28 before Tdc then it must be ok , but
there are diffrent timing on each cylinder.
I going to run the engine rich and check temprature on each cylinder.
Prop hub with changed position magnets would be intresting but not to easy to manufacture.
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Old 11-10-2018, 06:29 AM
  #1872  
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Hello guys,I will try to do my best to explain the timing.
On ALL Multi cylinders CDI Starting with Twin Uneven timing MUST BE 30 BTDC.
For Correct timing DO NOT GO BY WHEN IT SPARKS !!!!! For SOME CDI spark is when magnet comes in touch with sensor, some when magnet leaves..
In this case for SAITO Engines the 3 CYL CH-RCexl CDI timing should be as follow :
Static timing 30 BTDC when magnet and sensor first come in contact.
Spark occurs when magnet leaves the sensor and that is around 5BTDC when RPM is under 200 to prevent kick.
After engine startsand is above 200 rpm spark is when magnet enter the sensor.
Saito is usually really good with precision tolerance -etc.
I do not have a FG 60 to check the timing but I will be more than happy to check one up if someone sends me one.

Thanks
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Old 11-10-2018, 07:00 AM
  #1873  
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Hello Adrian.

Thank you very much for your explanation.
That will take away a lot of guessing.
Unfortunately I live in the Netherlands, so sending the engine to you is not an option I guess y
Hopefully someone in your area will send the engine to you.
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Old 11-10-2018, 09:58 PM
  #1874  
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Adrien,

Thanks for contributing, I am sure you know more about these ignitions than most of us combined, so its good to have you here.
I understand the way the timing works, and with a history ot timing older car engines (before electronic ignitions) it was always interesting to see how the advance/retard setup worked on the vacuum of the engine. All you had to do was remove the distributor cap, and suck on the vacuum tube, and you could see how the entire "points" chassis would revolve around, thus advancing when the revs increase. The exact same thing is happening with these ignition modules, except it is being done electronically, based on the engines speed, at any given point.
I imagine that if there was a spark ONLY at 28 deg while you were starting the engine, there would be many sore hands from the engine kicking back, and not a lot of running engines, so having the spark "retard" to around 5deg BTDC, or even on BTDC makes sense when starting. At 6000rpm, the fuel needs time to burn properly, so the spark is advanced.

The problem that I am seeing, is that it is physically impossible to move the sensor to a point where it is able to be timed at 28Deg....there is no movement of the hall sensor to do this.

Its a shame you dont have one of these engines to check it out on. Unfortunately, being in Dubai, it doesnt make sense for me to send one of mine to you.

In my video above, I mentioned that I have a second FG60, and although I havent posted the video here, I did a check with that engine, and it is exactly the same. If there is any difference in the timing, it is very small. The sensor is in the stock position, and at the point, the magnet comes into contact with the hall sensor at around 45-48Deg BTDC. Thats a long way off.....

I also wish that Saito or RCexel could see and take part in this discussion, if nothing else, just to justify what each other is saying. Its a lot of money to be spending on model engines, and would be nice to know WHY they have done it the way they have. Its quite obviouls that they are trying to correct things in design of these engines... They have adopted the Ray English mod of the brass bushing, the intake variances since they were released, and more recently, the piston design has been changed to lower the compression. Most of the failures of these engines has been cylinder mounting failure....and what causes this.....? High compression? Hydrolock? Excessive heat?...or maybe...pre-ignition....cos' pre-igntion is most definately a symptom of timing problems.....

Anyway....
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Old 11-11-2018, 11:41 AM
  #1875  
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Default 3 CYL CDI Timing

Gentleman, It is not much I can say on this and I do not want to throw stones at any one.
What I think happen it was a misunderstanding /lost in translation on how the CDI should work.
I am quite involved with RCexl on developing the CDI's in several visits in China latest one this year in February and work
closely with the development team. I kinda enherated the technical support for RCexl and I answer many questions for many people.
Due to let's say language barrier some time they can not quite understand all the meaning on people issues and they ask me to take care of that part.
I try to do my best and help everyone as best I can with my limited time. (full time job, CH Ignitions and Keleo)
The 3 CYL CDI I have installed it since 2013 on many of the FA450 R3 / 170 / 200; the way I describe it above.
I just talk last night again with the programmer and he confirmed that the program did not changed at all since 2012.
I had a FG84 and I check the timing and yes I get the Green LED ON around 47-48 BTDC and OFF around 25 BTDC.
I am not sure why Saito did this maybe they have a reason behind that I do not know that and I do not comment...I may be dead wrong.
Similar issues were noted with NGH and EME engines, anyway back to this....
I re-time it may way on 30 BTDC on magnet touch.
I pull the prop drive OFF ( take out the set screw) and used a puller to take it off.
I used my piston stop from my Timing kit ;do not use the 10mm in the kit, that is for 2 stroke ONLY!!!, If you use it on 4 stroke engines you may bend a valve !!!
I used the 10 to 1/4-32 adaptor nut and the 1/4-32 piston stop. Clean all good and put locking compound ( not quite necessary but for the hack of it) with the shaft against the P stop at 30BTDC turning the shaft CCW against the P stop.
I put the prop drive back on with the 1st magnet that turns Green after the RED LED, that is CYL #1. Now got to make sure you put the P stop on cyl #1. I started to tighten back slowly to get it closer
to the sensor and rotate the Propdrive until I got the Green LED to come on. At that point I tighten the hack out of it. and let it to set. I forgot to mention that I put a Prop on the shaft so I can tight the nut like I said. The shaft have a cut out for that setscrew that I said at the beginning, that little thing does not do to much other than help to set the prop drive in the correct position. It will not prevent TOO much the prop drive to spin on the shaft. It helps but like I said...not to much, it shears easily if you have a prop strike, if you have a hard landing and prop heat the ground it can shear and before you knowing the engine will run like crap or not at all. One way to check on original set up is to align the set screw hole with the hole on the cam cover on cyl #1. Life is beautiful if piston is TDC and the holes inline. If not you have to re-time the engine.
I have not started yet the engine as I had to go to work this morning...YES I work SUNDAYS...LOL.
If is not to late when I get home and still some light out I will test run the engine and may take a video and post it here, it is an FG 84 ...but same timing thing.
Ok I got home , and I got the engine mounted and started the engine. Here is the video I promise .




Thanks
Adrian

Last edited by CH Ignitions; 11-11-2018 at 03:43 PM. Reason: Video add
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