Saito FG-60R3
11-29-2018, 02:32 PM
#1952
My Feedback: (4)
slskn,
4T engines prefer coarser props, and this is a case in point. I would say by today's flying that the 18x14 is probably the sweet spot on this setup. Remember that I have changed the timing on my engines, so your results might vary. A shorter diameter and coarser props look like it makes it happier. If you are running standard timing, you would be better off having heat telemetry on it, and keep an eye on it. This engine has never run below 150-170C, even with the recommended 22x10 prop. In fact, I am going to see if I can source a 20x14 or a 21x12 TWO blader for this thing.
4T engines prefer coarser props, and this is a case in point. I would say by today's flying that the 18x14 is probably the sweet spot on this setup. Remember that I have changed the timing on my engines, so your results might vary. A shorter diameter and coarser props look like it makes it happier. If you are running standard timing, you would be better off having heat telemetry on it, and keep an eye on it. This engine has never run below 150-170C, even with the recommended 22x10 prop. In fact, I am going to see if I can source a 20x14 or a 21x12 TWO blader for this thing.
11-30-2018, 08:00 AM
#1955
so I managed to sneak out of work this afternoon and we thought we would try putting a Biela 4-blader on the FG60. Specs are 18x14. Biela’s site said this was designed for a radial, most specifically the Evo 7-77. It’s a more powerful engine as far as I know. But hey, we’re experimenting here...
starrted fine, and warmed up to 80C at idle and low revs. Max revs were 4900 static. Temps went up to 130C on the ground.
anyway, here’s the first few mins of the flight....you can hear me calling out temps through the few minutes.
https://youtu.be/SKDsF81ZuNU
starrted fine, and warmed up to 80C at idle and low revs. Max revs were 4900 static. Temps went up to 130C on the ground.
anyway, here’s the first few mins of the flight....you can hear me calling out temps through the few minutes.
https://youtu.be/SKDsF81ZuNU
11-30-2018, 11:47 AM
#1959
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Hyjinx, its a very nice place to fly, with pretty much no restrictions on noise or anything. No licenses etc etc....
Actually, they are having the Emirates National Day celebrations at the moment, and have a bunch of world class flyers over for basically a fun/demo event. The day we were flying, we had Andrew Jesky and Martin Pickering maidening their planes for the weekends flying. Intimidating to say the least....
I agree, the valve gap should be a little smaller than 0.1mm, but if you have some good resistance with the supplied feeler blade in there, you will be good. Any tighter and you run the risk of valves staying open, which is worse....
Actually, they are having the Emirates National Day celebrations at the moment, and have a bunch of world class flyers over for basically a fun/demo event. The day we were flying, we had Andrew Jesky and Martin Pickering maidening their planes for the weekends flying. Intimidating to say the least....
I agree, the valve gap should be a little smaller than 0.1mm, but if you have some good resistance with the supplied feeler blade in there, you will be good. Any tighter and you run the risk of valves staying open, which is worse....
12-02-2018, 03:13 PM
#1962
12-03-2018, 02:17 AM
#1963
Senior Member
so I managed to sneak out of work this afternoon and we thought we would try putting a Biela 4-blader on the FG60. Specs are 18x14. Biela’s site said this was designed for a radial, most specifically the Evo 7-77. It’s a more powerful engine as far as I know. But hey, we’re experimenting here...
starrted fine, and warmed up to 80C at idle and low revs. Max revs were 4900 static. Temps went up to 130C on the ground.
anyway, here’s the first few mins of the flight....you can hear me calling out temps through the few minutes.
https://youtu.be/SKDsF81ZuNU
starrted fine, and warmed up to 80C at idle and low revs. Max revs were 4900 static. Temps went up to 130C on the ground.
anyway, here’s the first few mins of the flight....you can hear me calling out temps through the few minutes.
https://youtu.be/SKDsF81ZuNU
Any slippage of the prop hub noticed? Is it possible after adjusting to drill a new hole in the hub and after machining the hole to put a screw inside as the new locking device?
12-03-2018, 02:56 AM
#1964
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Didier,
They are running a lot better at 30deg for sure. I did not see any slippage of the prophub, but I also put a little red loctite between the collet and the crankshaft, and between the collet and the prophub. Whether it’s contributing to the hub staying in place or not, I don’t know. I would think that i tightened it up enough that the counter-torque of a 4-bladed prop with a 14” was not enough to make it slip, but all you need is a backfire/burst start and it might move. With the timing in the right place there has not been a single backfire or anything of the sort so far. It starts so easy it’s almost criminal. Have a propstrike, and it will move, but you will be putting a new prop on.
as far as drilling a new hole, NO, you cannot do it just because the check magnet is EXACTLY where you would need to drill the hole. This is what leads me to believe that the magnet and the locator hole were mixed up. Swap them around and it would be perfect. That is of course, if the checkmagnet can be in a closer proximity to the other magnet.
They are running a lot better at 30deg for sure. I did not see any slippage of the prophub, but I also put a little red loctite between the collet and the crankshaft, and between the collet and the prophub. Whether it’s contributing to the hub staying in place or not, I don’t know. I would think that i tightened it up enough that the counter-torque of a 4-bladed prop with a 14” was not enough to make it slip, but all you need is a backfire/burst start and it might move. With the timing in the right place there has not been a single backfire or anything of the sort so far. It starts so easy it’s almost criminal. Have a propstrike, and it will move, but you will be putting a new prop on.
as far as drilling a new hole, NO, you cannot do it just because the check magnet is EXACTLY where you would need to drill the hole. This is what leads me to believe that the magnet and the locator hole were mixed up. Swap them around and it would be perfect. That is of course, if the checkmagnet can be in a closer proximity to the other magnet.
12-03-2018, 03:17 AM
#1965
Senior Member
Ok thanks.
I'm curious what Morris will bring out regarding a new prophub.
An other option could be making a different kind of sensor clamp (360 degree clamp around the front bearing housing) and bring the sensor to the correct timing
I'm curious what Morris will bring out regarding a new prophub.
An other option could be making a different kind of sensor clamp (360 degree clamp around the front bearing housing) and bring the sensor to the correct timing
12-03-2018, 04:01 AM
#1966
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When I was speaking to Morris, I suggested he visit the problem of the cylinder timing being different between them, given that some people have measured that they are not 120deg apart. I think he is looking into this as even if you made a new hub without considering this, the timing will still be slightly out. Having sensor housing with more range would be a less ‘complex’ way of getting the timing where it should be, but would still have the problem of the TDC’s of the lower cylinders out of alignment.
The very best solution would be to have a new prop hub, with locating pin in the correct position and the magnets set to give 30deg on each cylinder. Done like this, the engine would run flawlessly, with lots of power and no overheating. It will be at optimal performance ...IN MY HUMBLE OPINION.
remember, I am opento being proved wrong, maybe someone will be able to present evidence to prove that Saito have done this correctly, and I would happily concede to this evidence.
The very best solution would be to have a new prop hub, with locating pin in the correct position and the magnets set to give 30deg on each cylinder. Done like this, the engine would run flawlessly, with lots of power and no overheating. It will be at optimal performance ...IN MY HUMBLE OPINION.
remember, I am opento being proved wrong, maybe someone will be able to present evidence to prove that Saito have done this correctly, and I would happily concede to this evidence.
12-03-2018, 04:19 AM
#1967
Senior Member
I think you are completely correct. You proved it already with a better and cooler running engine in your environment. I am completely convinced that the breaking cylinders is due to the timing completely wrong (together with hydro lock due to carb settings not correct or due to flooded engine during starting)
12-03-2018, 05:12 AM
#1968
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I read the full article where you found those graphs you posted earlier in the thread and the in-cylinder pressure at 40deg BTDC was a LOT higher. When you compare the power difference between 30 and 40deg, it’s not that different. Given that cylinder No2 is even MORE advanced than the others, it stands to reason that it is most likely to suffer a failure, which is where most failures HAVE happened.
We haven’t even touched on the pressure on the piston, small bearing, big bearing and crankshaft with the timing being so far advanced.
We haven’t even touched on the pressure on the piston, small bearing, big bearing and crankshaft with the timing being so far advanced.
12-03-2018, 10:23 AM
#1969
Hey Cat
When I was speaking to Morris, I suggested he visit the problem of the cylinder timing being different between them, given that some people have measured that they are not 120deg apart. I think he is looking into this as even if you made a new hub without considering this, the timing will still be slightly out. Having sensor housing with more range would be a less ‘complex’ way of getting the timing where it should be, but would still have the problem of the TDC’s of the lower cylinders out of alignment.
The very best solution would be to have a new prop hub, with locating pin in the correct position and the magnets set to give 30deg on each cylinder. Done like this, the engine would run flawlessly, with lots of power and no overheating. It will be at optimal performance ...IN MY HUMBLE OPINION.
remember, I am opento being proved wrong, maybe someone will be able to present evidence to prove that Saito have done this correctly, and I would happily concede to this evidence.
The very best solution would be to have a new prop hub, with locating pin in the correct position and the magnets set to give 30deg on each cylinder. Done like this, the engine would run flawlessly, with lots of power and no overheating. It will be at optimal performance ...IN MY HUMBLE OPINION.
remember, I am opento being proved wrong, maybe someone will be able to present evidence to prove that Saito have done this correctly, and I would happily concede to this evidence.
And it does seem like it is a timing issue with the hypothesis, testing and results put forward.
How bout we hire a machinist to mill a prop atapter to replace the oem, with the positioning of the magnets to actually fix the problem.
Then sell the rights to horizon hobby to compensate yourself for fixing their products engineering flaw.😁👍👍👍
12-03-2018, 01:13 PM
#1970
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Hyjinx,
I think both Morris and CH-Ignitions are looking into it, and they are likely way more capable of putting out a hub that will work properly. But nobody would do this without some research and conclusive reasoning as to why it might be better. A machine shop would need to follow a planned process to get the holes drilled in the right place, get magnets of similar strengths and polarity and place/glue/bond them so they don’t come out and after doing all of that, it would mean tarnishing the brand of Saito in the process. Horizon, as a disti, would be putting their relationship at risk by saying that Saito is wrong, and so would Morris and CH-ignitions. It’s a viscious (radial) circle...lol!
i dont have the time ornthe tools to make a design and implement the plan, so will have to see what others are prepared to do.
it is unlikely we will seen an ‘official’ change of any sort.
I got one of my engines from RCJapan, and the other second hand, so I have no dealings or commitment to/from Horizon. I just want my engines to run properly without smashing them through ‘normal’ running.
I think both Morris and CH-Ignitions are looking into it, and they are likely way more capable of putting out a hub that will work properly. But nobody would do this without some research and conclusive reasoning as to why it might be better. A machine shop would need to follow a planned process to get the holes drilled in the right place, get magnets of similar strengths and polarity and place/glue/bond them so they don’t come out and after doing all of that, it would mean tarnishing the brand of Saito in the process. Horizon, as a disti, would be putting their relationship at risk by saying that Saito is wrong, and so would Morris and CH-ignitions. It’s a viscious (radial) circle...lol!
i dont have the time ornthe tools to make a design and implement the plan, so will have to see what others are prepared to do.
it is unlikely we will seen an ‘official’ change of any sort.
I got one of my engines from RCJapan, and the other second hand, so I have no dealings or commitment to/from Horizon. I just want my engines to run properly without smashing them through ‘normal’ running.
12-05-2018, 07:59 AM
#1973
Senior Member
Did you already get the info of Morris if the position of the magnets is adjusted to the geometry of the crankshaft?
12-05-2018, 09:18 AM
#1975
My Feedback: (93)