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Saito FG-60R3

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Old 02-13-2019, 01:56 AM
  #2101  
cathurga
 
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Hi,
As recommended by someone else on the forum (canít recall who) I took a dremel and cut off about 1mm off the end of each plug cap. That allows the clip to hook under the hex part of the plug. Works on both types of plugs.
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Old 02-13-2019, 02:53 AM
  #2102  
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Originally Posted by cathurga View Post
Hi,
As recommended by someone else on the forum (canít recall who) I took a dremel and cut off about 1mm off the end of each plug cap. That allows the clip to hook under the hex part of the plug. Works on both types of plugs.
OK, thanks, I will try it.
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Old 02-13-2019, 08:44 AM
  #2103  
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The Kelo Exhaust ring interferes with the sparkplug caps so they get twisted 90ļ. Loosing the little locking wire at the bottom of the cap. I drilled a small hole in the fin. Then used .020 safety wire to loop around the cap and it holds without issue. Its not tight just prevents the cap from coming off. After 15 flights or so the firewall let loose and I landed the plane with drama. It is repaired and ready to fly this season. My delimia is do i put the MMM timing ring on a perfectly operating.
Sparky
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Old 02-13-2019, 09:02 AM
  #2104  
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Originally Posted by elmshoot View Post

The Kelo Exhaust ring interferes with the sparkplug caps so they get twisted 90ļ. Loosing the little locking wire at the bottom of the cap. I drilled a small hole in the fin. Then used .020 safety wire to loop around the cap and it holds without issue. Its not tight just prevents the cap from coming off. After 15 flights or so the firewall let loose and I landed the plane with drama. It is repaired and ready to fly this season. My delimia is do i put the MMM timing ring on a perfectly operating.
Sparky
Thanks Sparky, I use the standard exhaust pipes on the test bench, but the Keleo exhaust on the plane. Seems I will combine the 2 proposals.

JM
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Old 02-13-2019, 09:17 AM
  #2105  
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Originally Posted by elmshoot View Post

The Kelo Exhaust ring interferes with the sparkplug caps so they get twisted 90ļ. Loosing the little locking wire at the bottom of the cap. I drilled a small hole in the fin. Then used .020 safety wire to loop around the cap and it holds without issue. Its not tight just prevents the cap from coming off. After 15 flights or so the firewall let loose and I landed the plane with drama. It is repaired and ready to fly this season. My delimia is do i put the MMM timing ring on a perfectly operating.
Sparky

Has someone tried to use 120deg Rcexl sparkplugs instead the 90deg Saito one ? By replacing the complete ignition unit by Rcexl 3 cylinders unit with 120į sparkplugs, or by just replacing the sparkplugs on the Saito ignition unit ?

JM
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Old 02-13-2019, 09:52 AM
  #2106  
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My FG-60 is on a TopFlite P47 and has plenty of room to route the plug leads under the ring so I'm just able to get them in the intended position. I see on Elmshoot's plane the ring is right up against the firewall.
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Old 02-13-2019, 10:40 AM
  #2107  
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I am now satisfied with the improvments made on this engine. Very low idling, good transition between the different rpms, cylinder temperatures quite similar.
The engine is equipped with standard exhaust pipes on the test bench, but will be used with a keleo exhaust on the plane (Beaver H9)
As already stated, the most effective modifications have been the passage of gases through the crankcase (modification made by myself) with a reduction of the operating temperature especially of the cylinder 1, and the MMM timing ring - very smooth running, and very good transition between the different rpms. The engine runs well between 900 and 7000rpm
A short video

Note: I am also happy, because I am finally allowed to publish links

JM
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Old 02-13-2019, 11:16 AM
  #2108  
757jonp
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JieM... That engine sounds real good! And thanks for the link leading to the Saito factory tour, but I'd hate to be one of those guys machining the same part all day long!
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Old 02-13-2019, 07:35 PM
  #2109  
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What prop are u using to turn 7,000 RPM?
My engine is a retro fit into the plane and I had to take what I was given.
Sparky
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Old 02-13-2019, 09:59 PM
  #2110  
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JieM, that engine looks happy enough! Can you show us a pic of your MMM hub mounted. Anything to look out for when installing it?

Anyone have any idea what would happen to the oil distribution to the rockers in the negative pressure crankcase scenario? I know that the amount of oil getting to the top cylinder was marginal under normal circumstances, I wonder if it would be better with the negative pressure instance.

Sparky, I would put the MMM hub on there chap, regardless of how well your engine is running, if it is on std timing, then things are not happy under the hood.
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Old 02-13-2019, 10:09 PM
  #2111  
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JieM,

I have a few questions regarding the intake mods you have had done.

Firstly, why did you drill the big holes that you made as a later mod. The picture of you drilling out the bigger holes, why was that necessary.

Also in the pics of the test piece you made, I have put an orange arrow pointing to what look like a hole. Is it a hole, and if so, whats it for?

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Old 02-13-2019, 11:39 PM
  #2112  
JieM
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Originally Posted by cathurga View Post
JieM,

I have a few questions regarding the intake mods you have had done.

Firstly, why did you drill the big holes that you made as a later mod. The picture of you drilling out the bigger holes, why was that necessary.

Also in the pics of the test piece you made, I have put an orange arrow pointing to what look like a hole. Is it a hole, and if so, whats it for?
Drilling the big holes was a trail to improve the gases transfer betwenn the crankcase and the intake pipes. It seems to me that the only improvment was less latence when you change throttle. In fact, 4 years ago, I decide to only introduce a easy reversible solution. And with this flange, the engine worked 3 years long. 2 month ago, I decide to brake the rule and I drill the 3 holes.

The marks you can see on the 3D printed part are some pen mark where the CAD model has to be modofied (dimensions adjustment issue after trial)

You can try to download the stl files here (save under)

JM
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Old 02-13-2019, 11:51 PM
  #2113  
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Originally Posted by elmshoot View Post
What prop are u using to turn 7,000 RPM?
My engine is a retro fit into the plane and I had to take what I was given.
Sparky
As explained before this engine is mounted in a H9 Beaver. For reasons of ground clearance and too high idle, I used a 20 x 8 airscrew master. The propeller is therefore undersized for this engine. But more interesting is that before the change with the MMM ring, in identical test conditions, this engine has never turned more than 6500rpm on the ground.
With a so low iddle I will now mount a 20 x 12. My goal is to fly at 3500-4500rpm
JM
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Old 02-14-2019, 12:53 AM
  #2114  
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Ok thanks Jiem, I wasnt sure if that was a hole or a pen-mark.
So what you are saying is that the throttle response was better once you increased the size of those holes? I noticed in your video, that when you chop the throttle at 1m30s, it takes a while to settle into an idle again. I assume this is a 'feature' of the negative crankcase pressure design. Obvioulsy that fuel/air mixture has more distance to travel, and changes would be a little 'luggish' I assume it is the same for revving up and down. Immediate throttle response is not something that is really 'required' on an engine like this, its not a 3D type engine, but it useful when setting the needles. Any 'stalling' during transition indicates lean settings. Its not going to be as apparent in this environment, and tuning the engine could be a little trickier than normal. At least, thats MY assumption, a logical assumption, not one from experience, so I may be wrong. Have a look at my video on post 1888, the last video of the engine running, you can see that the throttle response on that engine, is very crisp. (BTW, the engine in that video is not the one thats broken its cylinder, its a different one).
Would you mind sharing some details of where your needles are set at the moment?
You say you are running the oil ratio at 25:1, and I see morris runs his at 30:1, do you think there is any danger running at 30:1? I have seen the carbon build up on my busted engine, and I dont like it, would prefer to have lower carbon and hope that a leaner ratio might reduce that.

P.S. 8 Deg C is useful.....where I am, the ambient temp in the summer is in the low to mid 40's....ALL.THE.TIME.....cooling is a bigger challenge here...

Thanks for all your input.
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Old 02-14-2019, 06:28 AM
  #2115  
JieM
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Originally Posted by cathurga View Post
Can you show us a pic of your MMM hub mounted. Anything to look out for when installing it?
It is quite aesy.
First remove the stepped screw (see the sketch on my drawing. Then I slightly heat the propeller plate with the heat gun. Then it is necessary to put the hub puller under tension. Once under tension a slight hammer blow of on the screw of the puller hub releases the propeller plate.
When mounting the MMM ring, just pay attention to the direction of the magnet ring. Mine had a black marker point that needs to be positioned inward.
Once the propeller plate is reassembled, simply set the ring magnet holder as explained on MMM video








Originally Posted by cathurga View Post
Anyone have any idea what would happen to the oil distribution to the rockers in the negative pressure crankcase scenario? I know that the amount of oil getting to the top cylinder was marginal under normal circumstances, I wonder if it would be better with the negative pressure instance.
.
The amount of air and the air pulsations are the same in both cases. They are determined by the air sucked by the pistons.
The main difference is certainly that the air stream is more turbulent, that's positive, and that the air volume is higher between carburetor and cylinder, with probably a less frank response to the throttle.
I also remove the rocker caps to check the valve clearance. Result: Oil mist on the rocker arms on cylinder 1, and caps full of oil on cylinder 2 and 3.
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Old 02-16-2019, 09:45 AM
  #2116  
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It seems that the recovery of the stl file is not possible. I put the zip file as an attachment. Thank you for telling me if it works.

JM
Attached Files
File Type: zip
jmo_flasque5 - Copie.zip (95.3 KB, 20 views)
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Old 02-16-2019, 10:08 AM
  #2117  
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JM, That worked fine. PS...what orientation did you print it on? Tx JJ
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Old 02-16-2019, 11:55 PM
  #2118  
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Originally Posted by Jeffryz View Post
JM, That worked fine. PS...what orientation did you print it on? Tx JJ
I have oriented the no slot area downward. But it would probably also work with 6 slots...



and on the printer




JM

Last edited by JieM; 02-17-2019 at 12:01 AM.
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Old 02-22-2019, 08:37 AM
  #2119  
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Default Saito fg60-new piston



Can someone tell me how I can tell if my new FG60 has the new piston design? I broke my engine in very reach on an angled table which helped me break in cylinder number 3 very easily. She is ready to be mounted in my p47!
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Old 02-23-2019, 12:28 PM
  #2120  
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Check post # 1849 and you have photo of new design piston.
Remove ignition plug and you can check piston.
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Old 02-25-2019, 09:36 AM
  #2121  
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I asked Mr Morris for the needle settings and cylinder temperature spread he gets with his intake manifold mods and he prefers for that info to come from customers that are using the mods. So I am looking for some stats on the engine performance from the user group here. The older YouTube video (2009) of the Ray English mods on an FG85, shows a temp spread of only ~5*, I don't know how the Morrismini mod compares on the FG60.

I have the Morrismini timing ring installed and it does provide a smoother running engine with timing at 30*btdc. I still see a very wide spread of temps, with #3 being >30* colder than #1! My current tune is rich and all the plugs show carbon buildup, but with snow on the ground, it is too cold for flying or tuning, imo. gas/oil is 20/1 of stihl oil.

PS...My timing ring did not have the inner ring marked and of course it fell off the ring and I was at a loss for the correct rotation until I watched the install video carefully to see the plain,red, green sequence. Also, there is a hole in the crankshaft for the locating step screw to fit into. it is easy to loose track of that hole when the split ring slot rotates and the hole is not visible. Make sure the step screw tip is in the locating hole before you tighten it down.
JJ
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Old 02-28-2019, 10:07 AM
  #2122  
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Default Break-in issues

So I went to do my first break in yesterday. I had the high speed needle 5 turns out and the low speed at the stock setting. Even at 5 turns out, I was around 6000rpm at full throttle. Has anyone else experienced this? Do I turn the high speed more than 5 turns out or begin to mess with the low speed needle? The manual wait said something about low speed adjustment if high speed didnít richen it up. I fear I hurt my engine by running the first tank at 6000rpm. Thatís the only runtime itís had though. It appeared to be on the rich side due to the amount of oil coming out the crankcase nipple and amount of smoke I was kicking up. Tank was giving me issues after the first run so thatís all it ran so far. Does anyone have any input on this? What am I doing wrong?
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Old 02-28-2019, 09:05 PM
  #2123  
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This is a dirty engine when running, Smoke is only one indicator.
What Oil and fuel mix?
What Prop are u running?
Is this fully stock engine configuration?
Do you know if you have the updated piston?
I doubt that you hurt the motor You might have some dirt in the carb.
I haven't checked but you should be able to get it so rich it quits.
I wouldn't mess with the idle mixture until you have 4-5 tankfuls through the engine.
Sparky
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Old 03-01-2019, 06:22 AM
  #2124  
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Originally Posted by elmshoot View Post
This is a dirty engine when running, Smoke is only one indicator.
What Oil and fuel mix?
What Prop are u running?
Is this fully stock engine configuration?
Do you know if you have the updated piston?
I doubt that you hurt the motor You might have some dirt in the carb.
I haven't checked but you should be able to get it so rich it quits.
I wouldn't mess with the idle mixture until you have 4-5 tankfuls through the engine.
Sparky
Iím using a 15:1 mixture with 93 octane pump gas and Klotz super techniplate oil.

Prop is a 2 blade 22x8 xoar

The only thing that isnít stock is that I am using a Saito brand collector ring

I am unsure if it is the updated piston. Is there a way to tell?

I saw someone had to get 7 turns out on high speed before they saw the drop. This just seems incorrect for some reason. So far Iíve only run 1 tank. Iíll continue the break in next time I get some good weather. Iím in northeastern Kentucky so those days are currently few and far between.
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Old 03-02-2019, 07:39 AM
  #2125  
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Klotz Super Techniplate Is the one with the castor oil additive? If so, I would caution against using that, and I speak from experience, it gummed up one of my engines pretty good. I believe the the Ďburn pointí of castor makes it turn to carbon pretty quickly.
indont want to start the ďoilĒ discussion/debate but I donít think thatís a good option. Use redline or stihl ultra instead.
the HS needle will get to around 7 turns out if I recall. Read up earlier in this thread about rotating the engine when running in. It will not fire properly on the lower cylinders as they run so rich they donít fire.
use the standard pipes on it while running in, then you can see which ones arenít firing, they just spew oil and smoke.
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