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Saito FG-60R3

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Old 07-11-2019, 11:23 AM
  #2351  
TomH
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thanks for the response cathurga, my motor has the built up casting, the piston was a point of curiosity for me. Over the last few years I call Ray just to see how he is doing and what's going on in the world of radials. he is very knowledgeable and loves to talk about radials. I had him convert a 5 cyl.. O.S. nitro radial to electronic ing. cause I didn't want to mess with a glow driver unit. since my 60r doesn't have a home yet and reading about the timing issues and how this forum was solving it, I decided to give him a call. I don't believe he has a website, I just call him or you can email him. he will respond. I think he truly likes to work on these motors and he enjoys helping.. if I remember he also does not follow any forums, me on the other had, I love to read them and try to learn from them. don't care to post much, you never know if you'll get flamed. again thank for you reply. what about the oil, what are you using, did you switch or are you using what you started with. don't want to get flamed on "oil "question, just curious why Saito changed.
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Old 07-11-2019, 12:07 PM
  #2352  
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TomH, yep, I understand why he doesnt want to attend the forums, some people have their opinions, and will NOT move away from it, and will tell you so....

I have a bit of an engineering background, but am not in the industry, so I keep repeating that this is MY opinion. Bear that in mind....

Its been mentioned in this thread, mainly by me, but others have echoed or at least agreed that there is something going on here with the Saito engines, and the biggest problem is the timing! Ray English, Morris Mini Motors, CH-Ignitions, Modelissme Moteur and a number of others, have all SUCCESSFULLY converted nitro engines to run on gasoline. They all have insisted that the engines NEED to run on 20:1 oil as the ONLY lubrication the crank and valve train is getting is from blow-by. This is as a result of nitro engines and the fuel build up, and the fact that there is a lot of unburned oil in the systems, even in the exhaust..(its why they call them 'slimers', and you HAVE to clean up all the residue on the plane after flying). They get good lube like this. When converted to gas you have to have the same lube process. The difference is that glow engines rely on HIGH compression, and no spark to ignite it...the glowplug merely heats the mixture and provides a flashpoint. The conversion to gas means you have to have higher oil than 2-stroke engines AND its going to run HOTTER, the compression will still be high and some people alter this by putting thicker gaskets in to drop the compression....The MAIN thing is, that all of the people that do these conversions have the ignition timing set at around 28-30Deg BTDC or thereabouts....not Saito... they chose 45 deg BTDC....!! FA-325 Radial conversion, FA400, ASP radial conversions and ALL the other nitro conversions have around 28Deg...they all seem to work well. Saito have not deployed black magic here, they are simply converted glow engines....

Ye Olde Oile Debate will rage on. I was using Redline in mine....lots of residue....might be unique to me an my conditions, but I now use the redline in a lot of my 2-stroke engines, but have moved the FG60 to Stihl HP. I have done the negative pressure crankcase conversion, so am now using 30:1 on the Stihl. Its a personal preference, and I am still testing the engine for reliable running. After another few gallons...I will open it up to see whats happening in there. Oil is a choice, and based in the UAE, i have limited access to choice, but Stihl and redline are available, so I use those.
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Old 07-11-2019, 12:40 PM
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Thanks so much cathurga for the replies and all the testing and reporting that you do. people like Ray , CH, Morris and the like are great help to people like me that don't have the time or knowledge to do this work , and to be honest I don't want to do it. I have very little time to fly. this stage in my life affords me the means to have someone do it for me just so I can fly. I use Redline in all my DA engines and love it, just not the black slim that goes with it. I think since I have this gallon of Morgan Green synthetic oil I will use it. keep sharing your work
Thanks
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Old 07-11-2019, 10:05 PM
  #2354  
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Tom, you really shouldn’t be getting slime from redline in a 2-stroke engine. Unless you are still bedding the rings in. New engines should push out some black stuff while running in and still a bit rich. Higher oil content is advised for running in but after that 40:1 is probably ok when tuned up...depends on DA recommendation.
The radial at 20:1 will be messy for sure..
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Old 07-12-2019, 03:18 AM
  #2355  
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your right, slim was a bad choice, its just a black residue that wipes up easy at the end of the day. 40:1 is the ratio, I've read some testing 50:1, but I'm fine with the 40:1
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Old 07-12-2019, 04:02 AM
  #2356  
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[QUOTE=cathurga;12536828]I seem to have some opinions on this, so I'll chime in! :-)

To this day, I dont know what the Ray English mods are to the FG60R3....people talk about a carb mod, an inlet mod, apparently he does the timing mod now as well ....and I actually dont even know where to find his website or how to order from him unless you mail him. Seems like a really nice guy, very knowledgable, and of course, I respect him for protecting his business. I saw a Saito FG60R3 on the classifieds of a well-know RC website, ...brand new, with Keleo ring and Ray English upgraded apparently. I had a look at the photo's and say that the prop hub has been upgraded from the single bolt to a single central bolt and then three smaller bolts to secure the prop...interesting design. What really caught my eye, was that the breather nipple has been seared of by what looks like 'melting' of the tygon....I wonder if the new mods include running at negative pressure....anyway, I digress..

I thought I posted this yesterday, I'll try again.....
Ray and a lot of other's including myself are at various levels of computer competency so that's why he has no website....
Ray is a great guy and wonderful to talk to. You should call him from UAE I bet a Skype call wouldn't be more than a cup of coffee.
The Tygon section on the nipple is so the oil he added for shipment and storage doesn't leak out, his instructions say to remove it prior to running the engine.
I wouldn't be surprised if Ray lurks here as well.
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Old 07-12-2019, 08:28 AM
  #2357  
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Sparky,

I have been fortunate enough to have a brief mail banter, and I am sure that if he was anymore ‘local’ to me, I would stand to gain a lot from a visit!
Get this, Skype is banned here! You have no idea of how this complicated my business. There are ways around it, but I tend to minimise the risk by minimising my ‘hidden’ state on the inter webs.

i understand that many of our generation, and those before us, still do things the old fashioned way, and I respect that. Perhaps if he sees the value of offering the services he performs, on a more global range, he might look into having a website built.
Some folks prefer not to know, and others don’t have the means to make these mods, and that’s also acceptable. Unfortunately, from an early age, I have been taught to QUESTION EVERYTHING, until I have a satisfactory answer, along with the evidence to back it up, so to this end, I consider myself cursed...’as I simply need to know’ hahahah
just glad there is a lot of constructive input here on this thread, and appreciate it very much.
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Old 07-13-2019, 04:27 AM
  #2358  
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Hi Andy, the one thing I have liked/enjoyed about Redline is the lack of carbon build up. Do you think this is why Saito has listed this oil, and in your findings so far do see it to be truly less carbon because of the oil. I will be talking to Ray next week, once he has my motor an I will ask him what he thinks about the negative pressure operation. I hope it won't take him long to make the timing changes. Now to buy a plane for the motor. I had it in a Extreme Flight 91" Yak. That plane flys amazing, and with the radial the sound was awesome. Keep up the good work, I have enjoyed following your journey.
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Old 07-13-2019, 07:41 AM
  #2359  
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Tom,
I truly don’t know enough about oils to be making any recommendations.
recently I have moved off Redline, and gone to Stihl HP. I’ve done that because I found the 20:1 mix creating a lot of carbon buildup in my engine. It could be that my environment is VERY hot, was running the radial on a 4-bladed prop...many things could have contributed to that. On my 2-strokes, at 40:1, were running very well with little carbon.
now my radial is running 30:1 on Stihl and what I have noticed there is a lot less build up of carbon, but I could not conclusively say why. More than one variable he changed.
stihl and redline are available here, so that’s a factor too.
the previous owners of one of my engines, was running it in a 50cc yak, and was disappointed with performance, but his was stock before any timing mods.
personally, a warbird would be where it belongs. TF has some good models, and the VQ Bearcat 30cc is a PEFECT fit for it, without any mods...
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Old 07-14-2019, 03:36 PM
  #2360  
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Default Saito FG60

I really like my FG60 and just now starting to get some flights with on my Top Flite P47. I would like to do the timing mod as it makes sense. My motor has about 2 gallons through it now but really feels sluggish when flying. I get about 6,000 RPM on the ground and instead of it really unloading in the air, it seems to unload a little then hold back if you will. I’m probably 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 out on the high and around 6 1/2 on the low. Do you think this engine still needs some run time or does it need leaning out some more? I don’t have the throttle snappy on transmission and it takes about 2 minutes for it to warm up. It sounds good in the air with no real missing just not winding out good! Any suggestions team?

Im running a 22/10 prop. I am at least going to do the timing mod. I’ll either do it myself or send it in. Anyone know how much Tay or Morris charges to do this? By the time I buy all the stuff it will be $130.00


Last edited by Smotherb; 07-14-2019 at 03:38 PM. Reason: Spelling
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Old 07-14-2019, 05:35 PM
  #2361  
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Smotherb... I've the same setup, TF P47/FG-60. My settings are pretty close to yours, though my throttle response is excellent once warmed up. With a 22x 10 prop, I to get about 6K static and that seems to be enough power to yank my P47 around just as good as the G62 I had on there previously. It's not a 3D rocketship, but I normally fly around at about 3/4 throttle (scale speed?) with plenty in reserve for aerobatics. I've recently changed my timing to 30 degrees vs the 45 degrees it had from Saito. Runs much better overall, but I didn't see any large amount of power increase. I don't know how else to describe it other than it sounds "normal" now vs running okay but acting "strained" at the factory timing setting.
I'm not sure what you mean by not winding out. 7K RPM is the max on this engine, and that's gettin kinda busy right there. It's not a screamer.

Morris's ring is kinda pricey, but it's a good setup. He has a video on his website how to install, tools needed, etc. Have fun!

PS.. Make sure that LS needle has enough resistance to stay where you want it. If it doesn't it'll make life miserable for you. Been there, got the tee shirt!
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Old 07-14-2019, 08:02 PM
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Smother,
as Jon, says, it’s not a difficult job at all, if you order the ring and the timing kit, it’s easy to do. If you don’t have a puller, you can get one at your hw store, that will cost you $5. Or get a fellow flyer to help you. You will learn a lot doing it and it’s useful knowledge. Once the new ring is on you can also change the timing yourself if you want to.
Also, if you get a 21x12 prop, you could try that as 4-strokes are ‘torquey’ engined and like the higher pitch.

im CERTAIN, your engine will improve, and running time will bring about changes once it’s bedded in!

Last edited by cathurga; 07-14-2019 at 08:12 PM.
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Old 07-15-2019, 03:12 AM
  #2363  
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Thanks to both of you! I will order the timing kit today!

I will also double check to make sure my low needle is staying put where it’s set. It definitely sounds good in the air and the timing adjustment should get it where it needs to be.

Got the T-Shirt, lol!



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Old 07-19-2019, 05:54 PM
  #2364  
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Well I finally got space (and time) in the workshop to check out my FG-60. I have all the necessary Kit and watching Morris Video. I determined that my timing was at 46 degrees BTDC!
My engine has run a treat at that setting and I'm really looking forward to even more performance and supper silky idle.
Presently the heat index is way over 3 digits but come Monday it is forecast to be a more pleasant 75 (27c).
I'm excited to see if I can detect any differences. After all with the MMM timing ring and timing module i have another $150 invested.
I'm well north of $1500 on this engine.
Sparky
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Old 07-19-2019, 09:07 PM
  #2365  
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Funny thing happened to me yesterday. I'm in the process of breaking in my new FG60, and I'm on the third tank (17oz each) right now. After running the engine for about 10 minutes I decided to shut it down and let it cool. As I'm trying to start it back up after it cooled it would not start. I finally got it to start and it ran at about 1800 RPM but it didn't sound right, like it wasn't running on all cylinders. I figured it's because it's still running rich but when throttling up it just died. I started it again and again had a hard time getting it started and the same thing happened, got it started but as soon as I gave it throttle it would die. I decided to take it off the test stand and check everything. What I found left me puzzled. The pushrod of the exhaust valve on cylinder one had popped out. It was still under the rocker arm but it was out of the little divot in the grub screw. This of course kept the valve open.I have another FG60 and an FG84 and this has never happened, not even on the smaller 4 stroke glow engines I have. Haven't had a chance to investigate further. Anyone have any idea how this could have happened? MMM timing ring installed btw. and set to 30 degrees.
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Old 07-20-2019, 10:23 AM
  #2366  
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Sparky, don't be surprised if you see a small drop in performance from what you have now, with the timing that advanced, it might be doing a little 'better' in the high rev range at the moment. But what you WILL notice, with the timing change, is a steadier, smoother idle, better transition, but most of all you will have the knowledge that at a more acceptable timing setting, that your cylinders are not trying to 'seperate' themselves from the crankcase! In particular, Cylinder 2's timing may be a little more advanced than 46 degrees as it stands, so that one will be happier!
As mentioned before, these engines are most comfortable with a little lower rev, and a coarser pitch of prop. They have more torque and can swing bigger/coarser props so depending on your current setup, you may want to try different props to find your comfort area for your airframe and conditions. If you\re running on a 22x10, try a 21x12 and see if it makes any difference. It might be worth spending $25 on another prop, just to check it out. So far, the feedback on the Morris hub, set at 30Deg seem to be all favourable, and setting it at 32-34 might get you the power you want out of it. Not a good idea to over-rev these engines.....which leads me to Khoysagk's experience...

I have seen this before on TWO occasions...the first was with the engine I bought from a guy that used to be on this forum...when he sent it to me, he said that it was low on power. After checking it over, I found no compression on No1 cylinder....first guess was ring/piston/cylinder failure...or a bent valve. It only took taking the rockers off No 1 and seeing the same thing you saw. I popped it back, and as a precaution got a new pushrod and adjuster sent to me in an order I had coming. Replaced them, and not seen it again on that engine. The second time I saw it was when I was checking valve action before after a rebuild of that failure I had, and was manually pushing the rocker down, I pushed it down, and as I did so, saw the pushrod fall out. I cautioned people about this a few pages back and also suggested that you should never do it, as the valves seem to be an 'interference' fit and you could potentially damage a valve.
As with any engine of this type, they get whats sometimes called 'valve bounce' or 'valve-float' when they over-rev or spring tension is too low...essentially the valves are moving so fast that the valve loses contact with the rocker or goes beyond its travel and then bounces off the seat which cause the pushrod out of tension with the rocker...and it falls out. Another reason not to over-rev these things....

Sparky, please let us know how it goes once you have changed the timing....and in between the constant grinning...shoot some video... :-)

Last edited by cathurga; 07-20-2019 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 07-20-2019, 02:05 PM
  #2367  
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Thanks for the reply Cathurga. The engine was not over-rev'd, most I ran it at was 4500rpm. My work schedule is crazy this week but I hope to find some time to check it over some more. This engine will definitely get a lot more time on the test stand before I will mount it on a plane.
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Old 07-20-2019, 07:07 PM
  #2368  
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Khoysagk,

i think it was mentioned somewhere here that the ‘newer’ adjusters had a deeper indent in them than the originals, but I never compared so not sure.
dont run it TOO much on the bench, flying it a tad rich is likely to ‘heat-cycle’ it better...
im used to doing loops up and down the field, or rudder turns at the top of your up line, then let it cool down on the dive...then back up again
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