Saito FG-60R3
03-10-2016, 05:07 PM
#527
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: darwin, AUSTRALIA
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We heard from the Colorado guys that they were having vapor lock problems due to heat building up behind the baffles due to the hot exhaust pipes. They removed the baffles to improve this condition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vapor_lock
Vapor lock is caused by fuel boiling in the fuel line and carb. It is due to three issues...heat in the cowl, the volatility of the fuel, and the density altitude at which you fly. Full size airplanes have this problem, too and they solve it in several ways. First, aviation fuel (100 LL) has a higher vapor pressure and is less volatile than car gas and boils at a higher temperature. Other solutions include wrapping the exhaust pipes with a heat shield and opening the air exit from the cowl to allow hot air to escape faster. Generally, removing the engine baffles is not a solution to the vapor lock problem.
For our purposes these solutions will also work. You can buy 100LL aviation gas at many small airports. They often have self service credit card pumps that are available 24/7. You're not supposed to use 100LL for autos (messes up the O2 sensor and catalytic converter) but shouldn't have any problem getting it for model use. 100LL works as well or better than premium car gas and will stay "fresh" for years. http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayof...09/aa.bad.gas/
Wrapping the exhaust pipes in heat wrap like they did in Colorado should also help. You might even want to wrap the fuel line going to the carb in insulation. http://www.amazon.com/LEDAUT-Titaniu...1+exhaust+wrap
As a last resort, opening the cowl exit will also help.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vapor_lock
Vapor lock is caused by fuel boiling in the fuel line and carb. It is due to three issues...heat in the cowl, the volatility of the fuel, and the density altitude at which you fly. Full size airplanes have this problem, too and they solve it in several ways. First, aviation fuel (100 LL) has a higher vapor pressure and is less volatile than car gas and boils at a higher temperature. Other solutions include wrapping the exhaust pipes with a heat shield and opening the air exit from the cowl to allow hot air to escape faster. Generally, removing the engine baffles is not a solution to the vapor lock problem.
For our purposes these solutions will also work. You can buy 100LL aviation gas at many small airports. They often have self service credit card pumps that are available 24/7. You're not supposed to use 100LL for autos (messes up the O2 sensor and catalytic converter) but shouldn't have any problem getting it for model use. 100LL works as well or better than premium car gas and will stay "fresh" for years. http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayof...09/aa.bad.gas/
Wrapping the exhaust pipes in heat wrap like they did in Colorado should also help. You might even want to wrap the fuel line going to the carb in insulation. http://www.amazon.com/LEDAUT-Titaniu...1+exhaust+wrap
As a last resort, opening the cowl exit will also help.
thanks Radfordc for your links with info, very informative .
I have not had vapor lock with my engine at "97f" temp in the day, but also running it with the lower cowl vent grille off my FW190 at the moment until the weather cool's down here.
03-22-2016, 08:14 PM
#528
Join Date: Oct 2012
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I cannot remove the small set screw that holds the carb in! I've tried several allen wrenches of the correct size and she will not budge and I tried a penetrating oil as well! Any ideas?
03-27-2016, 01:38 AM
#531
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Berlin, GERMANY
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I am approaching to 50 flights mark with my fg60 and am really enjoying it. Yesterday in the field, someone from the club gave me a carbon Engel 24x12 prop to test. This prop is known to be quite silent, is lighter and has also thin blades, so it is normal to go the size up. I first tested it on the ground and got 5500 rpm opposed to 22x10 Mejzlik @ 6400 and this did not look so encouraging. After test flight, I was positively surprised. I put the numbers to the calculator and thrust and speed are quite similar. With mejzlik, it is much louder and it has more punch but larger prop felt more suitable to the warbird making it less nervous and more docile so I ended up buying the prop ;-). I also think that having less rpm might be better for the engine. Here is a video from yesterday with larger prop. Let me know what you think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeIyXmgO7lI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeIyXmgO7lI
03-30-2016, 04:45 AM
#532
scubaozy,
That is awe inspiring and thank you for sharing. I liked the sound very much. Almost moved me to buy the TF Corsair for my FG60. I bought mine when it first came out and am very happy I did. It is easy to run and tune. The power is not too shabby either.
I'll have to look up the Engel props in the states. Any idea where?
That is awe inspiring and thank you for sharing. I liked the sound very much. Almost moved me to buy the TF Corsair for my FG60. I bought mine when it first came out and am very happy I did. It is easy to run and tune. The power is not too shabby either.
I'll have to look up the Engel props in the states. Any idea where?
03-30-2016, 09:50 AM
#533
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Location: Berlin, GERMANY
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I am glad you liked it PCT. I have no idea where you can get the prop but you might want to buy it directly at this address:
https://www.engelmt.de/mtpropellers-...ence/2-blade/1
Top flite corsair, fw190 and P47 are all perfect match for Saito. I might build the 190 next :-).
https://www.engelmt.de/mtpropellers-...ence/2-blade/1
Top flite corsair, fw190 and P47 are all perfect match for Saito. I might build the 190 next :-).
04-03-2016, 10:28 AM
#535
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Location: Berlin, GERMANY
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Hello all, I have some bad news. My engine is also hit by cracked cylinder issue today. After 3.5 minutes after take off, engine just quit in the air. I was able to do a dead stick crash landing, it takes about 40 seconds to deploy robart mains so I didn't even bother to try, came in straight on belly and saved the plane. I later inspected the engine, it was cracked exactly at the same place as the others. I checked the bolts, they are tight. I anyway had checked them yesterday as flight preperation. I have just a little over 50 x 10 min flights. I right now think every fg60 has a expiry date on it. So enjoy yours while it lasts.
Last edited by scubaozy; 04-03-2016 at 10:31 AM.
04-03-2016, 10:32 AM
#536
Hello all, I have some bad news. My engine is also hit by cracked cylinder issue today. After 3.5 minutes after take off, engine just quit in the air. I was able to do a dead stick crash landing, it takes about 40 seconds to deploy robart mains so I didn't even bother to try, came in straight on belly and saved the plane. I later inspected the engine, it was cracked exactly at the same place as the others. I checked the bolts, they are tight. I anyway had checked them yesterday as flight preperation. I have just a little over 50 x 10 min flights. I right now think every fg60 has a expiry date on it. So enjoy yours while it lasts.
04-03-2016, 08:28 PM
#540
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: BlenheimMarlborough, NEW ZEALAND
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Not good reading about another cylinder cracked. I have spent a large amount of my disposable income purchasing this engine and bringing it into my country. Everyone I know raves about Saito as a brand so I thought I'd push the boat out and risk my hard earned cash. Now I want to trust a nice big warbird to this engine.
Saito has gone way down in my estimation. I am really, really concerned over this bloody engine!! Wont buy another Saito as long as my arse points to the ground!!! Waaaaay over-priced and under-engineered from the looks.
Saito has gone way down in my estimation. I am really, really concerned over this bloody engine!! Wont buy another Saito as long as my arse points to the ground!!! Waaaaay over-priced and under-engineered from the looks.
04-03-2016, 08:40 PM
#541
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I think and this is just an opinion is their glows are pretty much rock solid but their gasers not so much . I think when a engine is just a glow conversion there seems to be issues . I wouldnt be happy either and saito need to get to the bottom of this as long as their bottoms point to the ground . Hope it all works out for u . Cheers the pope
04-03-2016, 11:55 PM
#542
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Frankly, I was expecting this to happen. IMHO, none of the previous cases had a convincing explanation. Why should the bolts loosen always on the same cylinder? Why should cylinder cooler running cylinder case cracks but not number 1? Anyway, I was always aware that something could go wrong, so I was as careful as I can be. I don't hear a lot of people reporting 100s of flights with fg60, so I wanted to make sure that I have enough flights before it goes out of warranty. I was nearly getting convinced that this would not happen to my engine. When it works, it runs great and the sound is amazing. Just couple of weeks ago I was considering to get another one, am happy I didn't.
I would like to know whether there others with more run time than me? As mentioned before I have about 50 10-12 mins flights and an hour of break in on the ground so thats about 10 hrs of run time.
I would like to know whether there others with more run time than me? As mentioned before I have about 50 10-12 mins flights and an hour of break in on the ground so thats about 10 hrs of run time.
04-04-2016, 03:34 AM
#543
Scubaozy; I have an FG60 R3 that will be installed in the TF FW-190. I am a little curious, during your initial engine breakin, did you use an electric hand held electric starter, or did you just do hand starts during breakin? Have you ever used an electric hand held starter on your FG60? If you have used an electric hand held starter on you FG60, did you ever experience an episode of hydro lock during starting?
04-04-2016, 04:19 AM
#544
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Never used a e-starter. I have noticed hydro lock once or twice when I flooded the engine during hand start. Basically the prop will not flip and you will notice more resistance than the compression. I guess if you don't prime and be cautious, it should not be a problem. Manual tells you to use the starter :-).
04-04-2016, 05:09 AM
#545
Never used a e-starter. I have noticed hydro lock once or twice when I flooded the engine during hand start. Basically the prop will not flip and you will notice more resistance than the compression. I guess if you don't prime and be cautious, it should not be a problem. Manual tells you to use the starter :-).
04-04-2016, 05:43 AM
#546
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My comment was for starting the engine. I don't have any idea why cylinder case breaks during flight. But I am not convinced with engine overheating and loosening the bolt theory. Hydrolock is a viable potential cause imo. I can't think off many other options. It is for sure not because of lean condition, spark plugs are pretty dark and there would be many other problems before cylinder case is cracked. Of course design error or poor material or production methods could also be the reason. It would be nice to know the reason so that we could avoid it. I contacted the dealer and will send the engine back and hoping (and expecting) a replacement but I don't want to get into the hassle of breaking in again for another 50 flights only.
04-04-2016, 07:35 AM
#548
My comment was for starting the engine. I don't have any idea why cylinder case breaks during flight. But I am not convinced with engine overheating and loosening the bolt theory. Hydrolock is a viable potential cause imo. I can't think off many other options. It is for sure not because of lean condition, spark plugs are pretty dark and there would be many other problems before cylinder case is cracked. Of course design error or poor material or production methods could also be the reason. It would be nice to know the reason so that we could avoid it. I contacted the dealer and will send the engine back and hoping (and expecting) a replacement but I don't want to get into the hassle of breaking in again for another 50 flights only.
04-04-2016, 11:24 AM
#549
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Well...what really rips my ration book is that Saito don't seem at all concerned over protecting their reputation. It's a bit like their intake design and lack of bushing on the big end on FG 84. Yes, they made changes to the FG 19 and FG 60 but as far as I am aware they keep poking out FG 84's without improvements made.
I am particularly concerned about my FG 60 because I have no easy means of enforcing warranty. O.K if you live in the States and bought from Horizon. But I don't have a dealer in my country, had to buy from RCJapan. Any returns or warranty claims will be an absolute nightmare. Well, it hasn't happened yet, so perhaps I shouldn't get so bent about it and just hope I luck in.
I am particularly concerned about my FG 60 because I have no easy means of enforcing warranty. O.K if you live in the States and bought from Horizon. But I don't have a dealer in my country, had to buy from RCJapan. Any returns or warranty claims will be an absolute nightmare. Well, it hasn't happened yet, so perhaps I shouldn't get so bent about it and just hope I luck in.