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Saito FG-60R3

Old 06-06-2016, 06:40 PM
  #701  
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Kwik,

What exhaust are you using on the first plane... with the black wheels and canted gear? Fantastic rendition! Looks like regular exhaust on the second plane...

Thanks!
Old 06-07-2016, 04:19 AM
  #702  
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Originally Posted by kwik
Both Focke Wulfs here have the FG-60. Yes, we would buy it again;

We allways use a starter on them, since there are no choke.

Just remember to put 20ml oil into the crankcase before the very first start.

There is no lube there, then. They come completely dry.

L-needle; 6.5 ( !!)
H-needle; 1.5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AGdihDBCco
Good day Kwik; how much flight time does each FG-60 have, estimated hours?

Roger
Old 06-07-2016, 10:05 AM
  #703  
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Both D9's has standard flexi pipes.

Not cut, so the pipe ends are standard. Important for good sound.

The black yellow spinner D9 has 33 flights. (ESM)
The spiral spinner D9 perhaps 20. (Sist)

Flights last perhaps 10 minutes?

The cylinders are tightly baffled, yes.

And again;

Just remember to put 20ml oil into the crankcase before the very first start. Extremely important.

There is no lube there, then. They come completely dry.

(Common for most RC 4 strokes, really)

L-needle; 6.5 ( !!)
H-needle; 1.5

I love this engine. But of course, if something happens, that will change. But by then I have had lots of joy with it already, and don't worry about it.



Haven't adjusted anything after the first flights, and it starts and runs fine every time.

Last edited by kwik; 06-07-2016 at 10:23 AM.
Old 06-08-2016, 01:02 AM
  #704  
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Kwik, great video, and lovely planes!

Just a quick question for the guys that have broken cylinders over the last few months. Are you all running standard carbs, or has anyone done the Walbro conversion?

I have my doubts over the capability of the standard carb that comes with the engine, and have recently done the Walbro conversion, but have yet to run it. I am hoping to get it started this weekend, but maybe no flying as the Wx looks a little dodgy with regards to wind.

Anyway, I am nervous about the choke useage as if this engine gets into a hydrolock, I am pretty sure it would contribute to breaking the cylinder, especially using a starter.
Since I have had the engine, I managed to get it tuned in, and all the flights I have had (probably 10 now) the tune has gone out on nearly every flight. This is what prompted me to do the Walbro conversion. Access to the LS needle is difficult, especially with baffled cylinders so I wanted to get the reliable tuneability of the Walbro. That said, I want to make sure not to flood using the choke.

A flying buddy at our field had the FG-21 (I think) which had a similar carb, and his used to flood very easily, and was a pain to tune. I mean, between each flight was another tuning session before he went flying again. In flight, it would lean up, or richen for no apparent reason. Eventually he just put on a nitro carby, a glow plug...and now it runs beautifully.... go figure.

I wonder if the carb is not causing over-fuelling at some point, causing the hydro lock? I think there are only 3 possible reasons for cylinders to crack at that ear 1) poor metallurgy or not enough material on the mount ears, 2) hydro lock, although in-flight this is not something that should happen or 3) timing - pre-ignition causing too much stress

I have not checked the timing, but once I have it running with the Walbro, I am going to retard it a few degrees and see how it runs. Just to negate that possibility.

When I did the Walbro conversion, I did the valve timing/clearances as well. Cyl 1 valve-train was VERY dry....
Old 06-08-2016, 01:58 AM
  #705  
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I use the stock carb but I doubt this has any influence on my broken cylinder. If you handstart, you will never have a hydrolock problem. if you set your idle correctly, you can safely use the starter as well. I think hydrolock will never be a problem when engine is running with exception that your exhaust valve is with some reason completely blocked. I have made a full 8 mins flight with my #3 not firing due loose plug cap and my #3 is not cracked and yet #2 is the one that cracked. The oil mix and type changes the needle settings significantly, this might make the tuning harder. I was mixing max 2 liters at one time and consume it as soon as possible to make sure I have a fresh fuel.
Old 06-08-2016, 05:30 AM
  #706  
radfordc
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I haven't found a need to adjust the low speed needle. I do sometime have to tweak the high speed needle a 1/4 turn or so. I added a needle extension to the outside of the cowl so this is easy to do.
Old 06-08-2016, 05:31 AM
  #707  
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Originally Posted by cathurga
I wonder if the carb is not causing over-fuelling at some point, causing the hydro lock? I think there are only 3 possible reasons for cylinders to crack at that ear 1) poor metallurgy or not enough material on the mount ears, 2) hydro lock, although in-flight this is not something that should happen or 3) timing - pre-ignition causing too much stress
I'm betting on #1.
Old 06-08-2016, 11:28 AM
  #708  
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And I found my smoking gun causing failure to accelerate!! Sure enough the fuel supply line somehow got a kink in it behind the firewall where it is hard to see. Strange as the engine ran fine first time on the frame, and then second time without changes it wouldn't run properly. Glad I found a logical and tangible reason. Hope to run again this weekend and see where we are at.
Old 06-08-2016, 11:37 AM
  #709  
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OK, while I have been keeping up with this thread, I have slept since then, and I simply do not recall whether the broken cylinders were all on engines where the electric starter was used.

Does anyone remember: are there guys out there that have NEVER used an electric starter and still broke a cylinder?

Is it always #2 cylinder?

How many broken cylinders do we have record of so far?

There might be clues to the failures if we can find some correlations.
Old 06-08-2016, 12:00 PM
  #710  
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Alfiev, you are lucky. Mine worked fine at first but failed in the air in less than couple of minutes into the maiden flight. I had to put her on the belly. I had neoprene fuel line which is too easy to bend, now replaced with tygon.
Old 06-08-2016, 01:31 PM
  #711  
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Finally received a reply from HH in regards to cracking heads, verbatim.

"Hello,

From what I can tell there has not been a large amount of this happening that would warrant a rework. Ultimately, Saito Japan is responsible for making that decision. If you do decided to go with the Saito 60cc R3 and you happen to have a problem, our service center is prepared to take care of any issues that might arrive.

Thank you"

Still trying to decide if i pull the trigger. so tempting, yet so not at the same time......
Old 06-08-2016, 10:09 PM
  #712  
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Radford, yes most changes are on the HS needle, but I have had to tinker with the LS as well. Just really inconvenient. HS is easier, for sure. And yes, I suspect this machine is not the strongest of build, just looking at those ears where the cylinders bolt on makes me nervous.

Scubaozy, I tend to agree with you that unless the exhaust valve doesn't open AT ALL, there is not much chance of a hydro-lock, but then the state of hydro-lock wouldn't exist at all, and we know that it does. How an engine could get into that state, while running, is odd. But should not be disqualified altogether. Just a note while I was running the engine on the bench, I had it mounted upside down to get No.1 to fire as evenly as the others, and I was intermittently removing the plug caps on No2. and No.3, while it was running inverted so as to get them to heat-cycle. If there was ever a way to induce a hydro-lock (or destroy an ignition), that was it. What it did to was make sure that there was a lot of unburnt fuel running through the induction and exhaust systems, lubing everything up. I suppose I could have broken the engine right there and then. Even then, after seeing how dry the No1. valve train was after 10 flights, was scary, and I think that any lack of lube anywhere could lead to a malfunction in a big way. Who knows, maybe people have had a valve stick somewhere along the way and 'pow!' cylinder broken.....although, I would expect the break on No1. and not No2.

Slither, one guy had his break in-flight, and still managed to land it, with the engine running! So no, not starter related from what we are seeing here.

Shultz, I don't think Saito or HH would EVER admit to something needing a re-tool. That would make them responsible for many freebies/fixes. No, I think they would say that ANYWAY, regardless. What would be interesting is to know what percentage of engines sold, and running, have had this failure.
If they have sold 10,000 and 9,000 are actually running, and out of those, there were 10 failures, that would be an acceptable figure I suppose.....anything below 5% fail rate could allow them grounds to say that some of those weren't broken in properly, were not baffled/cooled properly, oil/fuel ratio was incorrect, not serviced properly, yadda yadda yadda....Don't assume they are going to fix it. Just determine whether you want the engine badly enough that you would pay for it. I personally don't have the money to replace this thing over and over again with the same problem, but it is an AWESOME engine. Puts a huge smile on my face...
Old 06-09-2016, 07:19 PM
  #713  
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Failure in the air does not rule out starters as an issue...
Old 06-09-2016, 11:37 PM
  #714  
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Originally Posted by slither
Failure in the air does not rule out starters as an issue...
No, probably not, but a failure due to a starter and hydro-lock would probably manifest itself before getting off the ground.

For those that have done the Walbro conversion, I am having some problems getting it tuned.....(I thought this would go away with the walbro)....what needle settings did you end up with. I don't know what they were to start with, I shoulda checked....but I am getting some odd symptoms from bad tunes. I am good at getting the 2-strokes tuned, but this is not behaving the same...
Old 06-10-2016, 02:19 AM
  #715  
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Originally Posted by cathurga
For those that have done the Walbro conversion, I am having some problems getting it tuned.....(I thought this would go away with the walbro)....what needle settings did you end up with. I don't know what they were to start with, I shoulda checked....but I am getting some odd symptoms from bad tunes. I am good at getting the 2-strokes tuned, but this is not behaving the same...
Cathurga, the original Carb is a Walbro as well, made on spec from Saito.

All the original Saito-specified Walbro -Carbs are most likely much better carbs than the Chainsaw Carbs from Walbro, normally used on two strokes.

Remember ;
A Chainsaw basically needs only idle and max. Something in between is of no interest. So the chainsaw carb has just a circular plate inside that opens and closes ;
That's your throttle.
The result is that you get a highy unlinear airflow, especially when you opens it, from fully closed.

That again results in that people put in expo on the throttle, to try to get a better control around idle......

The Saito specified Walbro carb has a piston, and a needle in the middle of the piston.....much better control of airflow.

Otherwise, the pump mechanism is equal.

Last edited by kwik; 06-10-2016 at 02:26 AM.
Old 06-10-2016, 08:38 PM
  #716  
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I heard that the carb was developed with Walbro, but I still have a problem getting to the LS needle with my cowl/baffle setup, and I was getting inconsistent tune with it. I agree that the chainsaw carbs are designed with the ON/OFF attitude but I have managed to get mid-range burble out of all my 2-strokes, but only after they have been run in. All of them were a little inconsistent until I did the reed mods and put bowman rings in. Now, they are all running VERY well. This engine is not the same obviously, and the induction route is quite different. A butterfly carb works well on full-sized carb, albeit with cunning jet placement and a venture system that is a little more 'refined. I don't expect it to be perfect, but I just want easy access. |Typically I don't need to tune my engines much between seasons, maybe an 8th turn or so once they are run in and as close to reliable as possible.
The saito carb is not a piston throttle, its a rotating barrel, which is undoubtedly better than a butterfly, but I simply wanted to get a close tune, and then go from there.
Another problem I hit, is that I removed the idle screw and use the throttle servo as the stop so that I can cut it by trimming all the way down.....this thing just kept on running, even with the throttle completely closed. I have an opto, so can cut it anytime, but this is not supposed to happen.


Will contact the vendor, and if I don't have any luck, will put the old carb back on.
Old 06-10-2016, 11:33 PM
  #717  
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For easy access to the LS needle I glued a brass tube onto the firewall and made a hole in the cowling.

I did also rotate the carb for a better angle.

Old 06-11-2016, 05:22 AM
  #718  
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Originally Posted by cathurga
I heard that the carb was developed with Walbro, but I still have a problem getting to the LS needle with my cowl/baffle setup, and I was getting inconsistent tune with it. I agree that the chainsaw carbs are designed with the ON/OFF attitude but I have managed to get mid-range burble out of all my 2-strokes, but only after they have been run in. All of them were a little inconsistent until I did the reed mods and put bowman rings in. Now, they are all running VERY well. This engine is not the same obviously, and the induction route is quite different. A butterfly carb works well on full-sized carb, albeit with cunning jet placement and a venture system that is a little more 'refined. I don't expect it to be perfect, but I just want easy access. |Typically I don't need to tune my engines much between seasons, maybe an 8th turn or so once they are run in and as close to reliable as possible.
The saito carb is not a piston throttle, its a rotating barrel, which is undoubtedly better than a butterfly, but I simply wanted to get a close tune, and then go from there.
Another problem I hit, is that I removed the idle screw and use the throttle servo as the stop so that I can cut it by trimming all the way down.....this thing just kept on running, even with the throttle completely closed. I have an opto, so can cut it anytime, but this is not supposed to happen.


Will contact the vendor, and if I don't have any luck, will put the old carb back on.
Air Leak see post 693
Old 06-11-2016, 09:59 PM
  #719  
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Kwik, that was my plan as well, but the cowl setup on mine didn't really allow for that sort of thing, but I am going to make some changes. Unfortunately, since the new carb is on, I cannot go back so easily. I have made access to the Walbro carb though, so I have access to them.

Aquaskiman, yeah, that has cropped into my head, and what I am going to do is remove the engine from the plane, and put it back on the bench so I can find out if there are any leaks anywhere. I will also wind the needles out to 3 turns each, and start from scratch. I know it is not the best way to resolve these problems, but if I can get rid of external factors like leaking air and have free access to everything, I am sure I will get there.

I am also concerned about these spark plugs that I have bought, they are the RCEXL ones and don't have the groove cut in the flats, that the little springs connect to....I am wondering if the plug caps are not seating properly. That also makes me worry that if I ever lose one of the spring clips, would I be able to get new ones somewhere.....seems nobody carries these....which makes me nervous...
Old 06-12-2016, 10:25 AM
  #720  
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Flew two more flights today on a hotter day. Cyl #1 reached a max temp of 120 C (248 F) as measured with my Futaba sensor.

As a test I flew inverted for several minutes to see what the temp's did. As expected Cyl #1 temp fell from about 115 C down to 105 C within a couple of minutes.
Old 06-12-2016, 10:33 AM
  #721  
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Originally Posted by cathurga
I am also concerned about these spark plugs that I have bought, they are the RCEXL ones and don't have the groove cut in the flats, that the little springs connect to....I am wondering if the plug caps are not seating properly. That also makes me worry that if I ever lose one of the spring clips, would I be able to get new ones somewhere.....seems nobody carries these....which makes me nervous..
.
Why not use the original ones? Mine, the originals, works very well.
Old 06-12-2016, 11:03 AM
  #722  
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Kwik, yes fantastic idea, except those are the ones I sued to break in, and frankly, they are a little 'oily' I am going to use them again, once I have a look at the gap, and until I get some new ones sent to me.
Old 06-12-2016, 11:35 AM
  #723  
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"I am also concerned about these spark plugs that I have bought, they are the RCEXL ones and don't have the groove cut in the flats, that the little springs connect to....I am wondering if the plug caps are not seating properly. That also makes me worry that if I ever lose one of the spring clips, would I be able to get new ones somewhere.....seems nobody carries these....which makes me nervous..."

You could trim some material off the bottom of the sparkplug caps (some, including myself have done this) so that the spring clip sits under the hex on the sparkplug, or perhaps you could cut a groove into the sparkplug hex using a dremel with cutting disc or similar.
Old 06-13-2016, 03:44 AM
  #724  
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Hi Alfiev,

I have considered cutting my own grooves into the hex, but your idea of removing some material at the base of the cap makes more sense from a long term perspective. Thanks for the tip, will deffo look into that!
Old 06-17-2016, 02:22 AM
  #725  
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Hi all, I'm thinking of selling my Saito FG60, it's running perfectly now but its not giving enough power in the plane I have to do prop hanging, is anyone interested. I've got a Keleo ring too?

If you let me know and I'll give you more details, happy to ship anywhere in the world.

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