GalenB

My Feedback: (18)

To find E0 in your area try http://pure-gas.org/

beaver1234

Thanks guys. Some good info on ethanol free. Performance wise should be about the same just better on internal parts? Never used the stuff.

Cathurga, sorry to hear your having a lot of issues on the Walbro conversion. Maybe it is a low compression on your 2 cylinder. Let me know how your other 60r3 runs on the walbro conversion if you end up trying that.

What is your guys winterization process. Would I be ok with running the fuel tank dry with 15 or 20:1 redline? I may or may not be running ethanol free.

Any other tips for a new 4 stroke user?

marksp

My Feedback: (9)

Buy half as much fuel as you're used to burning on 2-strokes. These engines are very efficient!

Cheers

Timbers

My Feedback: (3)

I'll share my Summer update since I haven't posted in awhile. FG-60R3 is running great in my Tarheel Hal, completely stock, Keleo muffler, vent line vented towards the ground. I have 20 flights on it as of today, each flight is 10 mins.

Yes lots of black goo comes out the exhaust and breather and covers the bottom of my plane. it's normal. I'm running 20:1 Redline synthetic and non-reformulated gas.

Engine starts on the first or second flip every time since I pressurize the tank with my fuel bulb. No need for electric starter or choke.

Yes, sometimes I'll fly and the engine runs like a top, then the next flight it sputters a little bit. I just lean it on the high 2-3 clicks and it cleans up. Not that big of a deal to me. I notice if I come out of a loop and cut the throttle back to around 40% on the dive, It doesn't have the smoothest sound, kind of sounds like maybe it riches up in the middle range. Not going to worry too much about it.

So far having a lot of fun with it. I have about 2.5 gallons through it including break in time. 1 gallon on the ground and 1.5 gallons in the air. Just remember these Saito gas conversions have touchy carbs. It will respond to 1-3 clicks on the high and maybe 1-3 minutes on the low. So if you need slight adjustments make sure you only do a couple clicks max. Don't do 1/4th turns on the needles just to clean up a slightly rich issue.

Happy radial flying!

cathurga

Timbers,

Thanks for the feedback. I have converted mine back tot the Saito carb, I am still kicking myself for changing it in the first place, but its time to move forward with this and stop messing about with trying to find simple solutions!
It sounds like the mid-range burble is a part and parcel of this engine, so will have to live with it. I am in Dubai, and the weather here is disgustingly hot, we got up to 49C(120F) the other day, and the humidity is right up there around 70%, very uncomfortable. Naturally I don't fly in the peak of that, but even at 6am it is still heading into high 30C. I suspect that this , coupled with the humidity, is playing havoc with an already sensitive setting procedure. I might resign myself to flying in winter only with this engine.
I had mine on the test stand yesterday after the conversion back to stock, and set the needles at factory, started it up and then set the high, when it started lean bogging at about 6450rpm, I tuned it a little richer to drop the revs by around 100. and left it there. Brought it down to just above idle and tuned the LS until it was running smooth, and then slight movements (a few minutes at a time) until it started bogging, reverse the tune by the same amount and got the idle to sit at around 1200-1400rpm. It will do this all day comfortably. Transitions were smooth, with little to no smoke on the transition. Left to idle for a minute and then transitioned well again.
Its at the 2500-4000 rpm range where it sounds like its missing, and any tuning that away, means a very low idle of around 900-1200 rpm, which it cannot maintain. So I will leave it where it is, mount it back in the airframe and then leave it until the weather cools.
I notice that when tuning the LS, when i get the screwdriver in the right place, and just apply enough pressure to turn and make sure the driver is located, the revs change slightly, remove the driver, revs drop....these LSN are VERY sensitive...I will leave LS where it is, and next time it flies, will tune on the HS after flights to get it sorted ...

I have a DLE 30 and a DLE 55RA in other planes, and they run well all the time, the difference between summer and winter running is around an eighth of a turn on the LS, and almost a quarter on the HS. Easy starters, run well and don't use much gas.....cant expect a radial 4S to deliver the same reliability, but then a DLE 55RA never did sound right for a warbird.....

beaver1234

Guys,

Some good information here. Maybe some other guys have some more data for you cathurga. It sounds like you are dealing with a lot of weather factors that could make tuning more challenging. However, never having a radial before could also make getting the right tune for all the cylinders and the fact that it is 4 stroke more difficult. When you mention "Its at the 2500-4000 rpm range where it sounds like its missing, and any tuning that away, means a very low idle of around 900-1200 rpm, which it cannot maintain." does the low speed needle adjustment actually adjust your idle as well? Is it connected. For instance on your dle engines you have the low, high and idle screw if you choose to use (or use the throttle servo to adjust the idle). Is it the same principal?

Timbers thanks for your feedback as well. I was thinking about maybe going Keleo muffler as well. Should I just get the standard one no mods? Are they all black? Also do you have to change the timing?

Can I run a tech aero IBEC on this engine?

Also I am still uncertain on the best starting cold start and every start after if I want to start it without an electric starter. One way is a throttle mix to close the carb fully, rotate the prop ignition of 20 or so times. Turn the ignition on and it should start right up right?

I want to be able to start the plane without tools, pressurizing the tank, or electric start.

Also if you have a baffle that outlines the engine (each cylinder) that fits or is attached to the cowl with some sort of out vent, with the dummy radial over that again attached to the cowl, is that the best way to get the most air through the engine? If you overheat one of the cylinders can you tell on the ground. What are good temps with a laser heat gun on landing?

Also what is non-reformulated gas? Is that ethanol free? Is anyone running ethanol in this engine and adding steps to clear it out after runs?

How is the vibration on the airframe? Does this sound like more the engine as he does passes or air frame vibration? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBDDYWiXFug

Timbers

My Feedback: (3)

Thats crazy hot where you live! The idle changes when you touch the idle screw because the barrel has a little freeplay in it, so when you push on it will bring the two needles closer together inside and lean things out a little bit, kinda like if you close the barrel and it corkscrews inwards.

For Beaver1234, as far as I know Keleo only makes one muffler, and yes its black. They custom make things so I suppose if you ask them they could maybe not paint it for you? As for the Tech Aero IBEC it says that it has selectable voltages from 5V to 6.6V. There were some earlier posts in this thread that talked about ignition voltage, and some guys said that anything less than 2S LiPo voltage they thought was too weak. They mentioned that the FG60R3 ignition likes a fully charged 2S LiPo for ignition. The Saito manual says 6-9V for the ignition voltage. So I can't tell you for sure, I guess you would have to try it. If you get peak RPM and the engine sounds smooth on the ground with the IBEC then go for it!

Closing the carb and rotating the prop won't suck fuel up the line. The only way to suck fuel up the line would be to open the throttle to full and close off the air somehow, so the vacuum created would suck the fuel up. So far the only way I know of to start the engine for the first time of the day is to pressurize the fuel tank with my fuel bulb and hand prop it once or twice.

Non-reformulated gas is gas without ethanol correct.

In my P47 Tarheel Hal, I made a baffle setup using the fake radial plastic piece and the plywood that came with it. I added fins that go back past each cylinder head. When I land I can feel that my fuselage behind the cowl is pretty warm, meaning hot air is coming out of the cowl like it is supposed to be. I also notice that some of the oil that was leaking out of one of my exhaust fittings (because I had it too loose) was blowing backwards out the back of the cowl, so I know theres some good wind in there. I can't tell you if its cooler or not without baffles, I've never tried. Can't really tell you what a temp gun reading should be. All I know is that running around on the ground my cylinders are 160-200F and when I go up in the the air they are in the upper 200s to lower 300s. That is with my Eagletree on-board temperature monitoring system.

Engine runs smooth. I balanced my prop and I don't have any issues with vibration.

beaver1234

Timbers thanks again for the quick reply and detailed response. I like to get as much info on this engine as possible as I don't know anything about 4 strokes or radials.

I have to figure out if I am fine running LIFE packs with the engine and a tech aero IBEC set at say 6.1-6.6. I run LIFE packs in certain planes and lith ion like packs in others and like to keep them consistent. Worse case I could run a lith ion and and rc opto kill which if I'm not mistaken outputs the voltage inputted. If anyone else has had success with LIFE and tech aero and or just running 6 volts please let me know. Again this is important as to what batteries, opto kill, and servos I go with.

Is the low speed needle a low speed needle? Don't you adjust idle with the servo and amount open on the carb like that of a 2 stroke and adjust the low based on trial error and then readjust the servo carb opening again for idle?

Cool I will have to see about going the ethanol free route depending on how out of the way it is.

Good info on temps and baffling, that gives me some data at least on the ground as I don't have a telemetry radio.

Also how do you adjust the valves. I read the manual and am not entirely sure I get it. Are you going top dead center on each one and gauging around 0.1 for each tappet but not actually using the guage on the tappet for a rough idea? Do you just want them close to 0 clearance and even on all 3? Then adjust the bolt of whatever loosens it if they are off? Again not familiar with this at all? Is it a good idea to pull all the covers and see where they are for a reference point and to check they are all in good standing?

The only other thing making me concerned is the cracked cylinder heads. I think I have read 2 or 3 people with them. The last one happened 50 flights 10 minutes each. He said he checked everything over ahead of time and everything was tight???

Timbers

My Feedback: (3)

The instructions say run non-ethanol gas because they say it can cause internal corrosion because of the hydroscopic alcohol absorbing water and causing rust. Weird thing is my Saito FG-21 says in the manual that ethanol gas is ok to run. I've run almost 8 gallons of it through my FG21 and have no issues.

Sure, do your own testing with your batteries, you may have completely different results than the person who said 2S LiPo is the only way to go with this engine.

Saito gives you a tiny feeler gauge with every 4 stroke engine. The way to adjust the valves is first remove the spark plug of cylinder 1, and rotate the prop until the intake valve stops moving, then keep rotating until the piston comes back up to the top of the cylinder "TDC top dead center". I like to stick a wood toothpick in the spark plug hole and feel the piston moving so I can tell when its at the top. Then just stick that feeler gauge that Saito gives you between the rocker arm and the top of the valve. The feeler gauge should not fit between the two. If it does, that means you have too much clearance. You then take the little hex wrench and allen wrench and adjust the rocker arm so you have less clearance. The sweet spot will be when the rocker arm has some gap, but not enough that the feeler gauge fits in it. You do this to all valves on each cylinder. I'm sure there are some Youtube videos out there on it.

I adjusted my valves after I broke the engine in on the ground, then I checked them again after about 10 flights. Once the engine is broken in they don't change too often.

SrTelemaster150

A single or opposed twin will have alternating crankcase positive/negative pressure that will keep moisture build-up in the crankcase to a minimum. A radial does not have those alternating pressure pulses and are more prone to corrosion..

beaver1234

Timbers, so can you pull the plugs of all the cylinders and covers and adjust each in the order they say and then reassemble everything? Your explanation helps clear things up a lot thanks!!

Very interesting on the corrosion. I would have never guessed the single, twin, vs more than 2 cylinder positive, negative pressure and moisture build up more on 3. See I would have just maybe run ethanol not knowing. Now if I do go with this engine I will see if I can find ethanol free gas. How long would you safely run the ethanol free 15 or 20:1 redline for. 2-3 months?

Also I assume I can't use the cm-6 plugs like on my 2 strokes, you have to use the ones they come and suggest for replacement? Is there recommended spark plug gaps like there is on the 2 strokes?

Talked with Horizon and they said less than 1% issue on the cracked head. It was probably heat related or something based on the number sold.

I forgot to ask about the voltage being an issue.

SrTelemaster150

Some "twins" are in the same group. In any multi-cylinder engine that only has 1 crank throw (radial or FA-182T) there will be a corresponding piston traveling in the opposite direction thus evening out crankcase pressure. There will be some blow by pressure, but a single, or opposed twin (FA-300T) can be made into a compressor by using inlet & outlet check valves on the crank case. The FA-300TTDP uses just that sort of system to pressurize the fuel tank to feed the dual carburetors that are mounted higher on the engine than the fuel tank C/L..

Timbers

My Feedback: (3)

Sure, you can take all the valve covers off and all the spark plugs out at the same time, do all the work and then put them all back.

As for your spark plug question, that I don't know. All I can say is I'm using the plugs that came with the engine and have them gapped wherever they were set at the factory. They last quite a long time. My FG-21 went through 6 gallons of gas before it started running rough, and I noticed the spark plug electrodes were worn pretty heavily. So I changed it.

BDKelly

Hi Gents,
Couple questions:

Has anyone had trouble with exhaust & oil coming out around the threads of the Keleo nipple fitting? Maybe I just need to tighten it better (afraid to overdo it) or put some kind of hi temp thread lock or RTV on the threads? If so, what kind?

I notice in a note above mention of idle at 1200-1400. Is this typical? In Seattle weather I'm only getting as low as about 2000. Does this mean I need to start messing with the LS mixture?

Thanks again

Timbers

My Feedback: (3)

I used red hi-temp RTV on the threads of those steel fittings that you screw into the jugs and I still had oil spraying out. The problem was I didn't tighten it enough. I thought I did, but then I put a wrench on it after a couple flights and the one that was spraying oil turned another 1/4 turn into the jug. Now I have no problems. It would go for it, try to turn it a little more carefully. If you strip it, well then I guess you have to order a new jug

1200-1400 is a low idle, and I think its possible after the engine is warm. What I've noticed in my flying is these engines won't idle that low until after the flight is over. Once they get good and hot and heat soaked, then you can get them to idle at 1200-1400. When you first start up in the morning though I have trouble getting mine to idle lower than about 1600. I find myself trimming my trim tab while I'm landing to try to get the plane to slow down hah

marksp

My Feedback: (9)

I run 2S LiFe and Tech-Aero set to 6.6v. Running (2) 2200mAh packs in parallel, I've got down to 6.5v with no issues. Having said that, I've never tried unregulated LiPo so I have no idea what the experience is at higher voltage.

Cheers

GalenB

My Feedback: (18)

I will be running my Saito through a Tech Aero set to 6.6 volts, and will be using a pair of 2S A123 packs. I should be ready to start mine in a week or two and will report back once I have done the break in runs...

BDKelly

I'm running 2s unregulated LiPo for the ignition with no problems. I'll be interested to see how you guys do with LiFe, because I'd rather not have to remove my battery every time I charge it, as I must with Lipo for safety reasons.

( I use a pair of unregulated A123 2s packs for the radio. By the way, I burned up some servos this way. For some of them, when they say they are good for 6 volts, they are NOT good for 6.6 volts. I switched to high voltage servos. Expensive mistake!)

beaver1234

cool great that makes it easier to go the life tech aero route for me. Which servos did you burn up? 6.6 usually seems to be ok for most I have used.

Is there any way to rig a electric starter to this engine (on board that is)? I assume no, but was just wondering. It would be another cool factor but there is already a good amount of weight up there.

radfordc

My Feedback: (14)

With my mechanical choke (flapper valve) I set the throttle to idle, flip maybe 5-6 times until the engine gives a pop, open the choke and the engine starts in 1-2 flips.

radfordc

My Feedback: (14)

I use a 2S LiFe for ignition and no problems.

BDKelly

A couple of JR DS821's survived. Some Savox SC0251mg's did not. My A123's were freshly charged, so could have been more than 6.6 volts. Still, I won't make that mistake again!

beaver1234

interesting. ok cool thanks for the info. Radforc, what is the material you used for the choke plug? Is there a cutout indent for the carb or is it the whole foam or whatever material used square that covers the opening?

radfordc

My Feedback: (14)

It's a thin piece of foam (the stuff used to wrap Rxs). Glued to a plywood tab. No cutout...just a flat piece.

beaver1234

Cool. You don't think that will have any negative adverse effects on the engine with that design? Also you said your at idle until it pops. Choke off and at idle till it starts? Are you doing that procedure just on a cold start or each start. Reason I ask is every engine has there own unique way of starting. At least I start my DLE 35 different than my DA-70