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Saito FG-60R3

Old 12-05-2018, 01:13 PM
  #1976  
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I am not getting any readings from my ignition tester! It works fine on my dle 50 with the Pegasis ign module, but no response on the saito. Is there a polarity difference or something?
Old 12-05-2018, 03:26 PM
  #1977  
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Which tester is it Jeff? Is it the one for multi cylinder engines that has four pins?
The check magnet has different polarity, the three timing magnets are the same, I believe.
Old 12-05-2018, 03:35 PM
  #1978  
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Red face universal tester for multi cyl.

This tester has three pins. White, red, black wires. it looks like RCredwing has a universal 4 prong tester. I will try that.
Tx JJ

Last edited by Jeffryz; 12-05-2018 at 04:30 PM. Reason: new info
Old 12-09-2018, 10:33 AM
  #1979  
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OK, got a universal tester and it works fine. The timing light for #1 green comes on at 53* btdc and goes off at 30*btdc. Where does the ign spark? the instructions say it sparks at green light on!! I will try to get an actual spark test later today.
I wish I could rig up a timing light so I could see what the advance curve is actually doing.
update: I did a slow roll with the spark turned on and I get a spark on the sensor exit at 30*btdc. So that should be good to go....

Last edited by Jeffryz; 12-09-2018 at 11:39 AM. Reason: new info
Old 12-09-2018, 12:24 PM
  #1980  
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Jeff,
As per RCxel, the multi-cylinder ignitions set the spark to go off as the magnet APPROACHES the sensor, so 53Deg BTDC is where it is sending the spark. In a slow roll of the engine you are likely to get a spark when it goes passed as well, but be wary of doing that. RCxel and SAITO both warn that it is bad for the ignition systems.
I have had a chat with some people in the 'know' with ignitions, and they say that the ignitions are programmed to RETARD the timing to about 5-7Deg BTDC at under 1000rpm (or thereabouts), from 1000 a curve starts advancing the timing in degrees until around 4000rpm, after which the timing stays at 28Deg....it doesnt advance any more. The reason why timing is set at 28Deg is because thats where the ignition 'rest point' is (for lack of a better term). The circuitry is actually RETARDING for starting and low revs, and then brings the timing back to its rest point at 28Deg.
I have just helped a guy at the field with his FG60, his timing from factory was 49Deg BTDC, had it in an old H9 P-47. Would battle to start with hand or starter, plane was 'lazy' he said, and he could never do a loop with it. Timing was set at 28Deg as explained, and the smile on his face was a sight when it fired up after 3 flicks. He hastily put it in the air, and said it was a different plane! Looped to his hearts content. This is a VERY experienced jet pilot! He also had a H9 Corsair 60cc with an FG84 in it, that blew itself to bits. He gave the plane to a friend of his, as a gift he was so frustrated with it.
Go back a few pages, you can see Adrien from CH-Ignitions sets the timing, I have done a little tutorial as well. Be aware, it will VOID you warranty, but the chances of you having to send it back will decrease by about 90%......chances are you will wear the engine out flying it instead..

SingleDual-Sensor-Tester.pdf

Have a look at that link, it will tell you all you need to know.

Be aware as well, you CANNOT get the timing to 30Deg with the existing Saito Hall Sensor and prop hub, they dont line up. You will need to make some changes.....if you want to look into it, look back to posts Adrien and I made in this thread. You have options there, or opt for Morris redesigned prop hub.

Last edited by cathurga; 12-09-2018 at 12:32 PM.
Old 12-09-2018, 12:45 PM
  #1981  
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Why don't one of you guys put a degree wheel behind the prop and put a timing light on it? Do this on each cyl. and it will end the mystery of the timing.
Old 12-09-2018, 09:00 PM
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Can't the sensor be relocated instead of building a new magnet/prop adapter. If i move the sensor about 22 mm to get the trigger point moved from 53 to 30, one screw hole is usable and the other could be tapped to fit the stock sensor wings. It appears the alum body is thick enough for a tap.
I am also thinking about 3d printing a new retainer for the sensor to reach the 30* BTDC set point. That doesn't address the magnet to crankshaft offset issue. I looked at the morrisminer option but there is no info about what issues he has corrected.

Last edited by Jeffryz; 12-10-2018 at 12:44 AM.
Old 12-10-2018, 12:42 AM
  #1983  
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Aquaskiman, we look forward to your findings ;-)

jeff, of course the hub is capable of supporting new, tapped hole, there are two there already! 😄
its simply a choice of buying a new designed hub, or a full engine tear down to tap and drill a new hole. Remember to budget for a new gasket set, and of course the few hours tearing the engine down. I’ve gone with the cheap route of just shifting the existing hub and leaving out the locating pin, until I can get a Morris hub, which will be bolted on, estimated time for work +\- 15 mins.
The other solution would be a ring/clamp type sensor holder that you could move to any position. I don’t have the tools to make one.
Morris’ solution is the best option at the moment, and would be ideal if he took the slightly different cyl positions into account. I’m not sure he has, but it will still be a shedload better than 50deg timing.

P.S cyl 2 is apparently a little more advanced, which means if cyl 1 is at 50deg, then cyl 2 is supposedly at 56..... remind me which one is the most prone to failure?
Old 12-10-2018, 12:48 AM
  #1984  
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cathurga,
the Morris solution is still a "pre-order" status. Any idea when he can start shipping? $$ to get one in USA could be expensive.
Old 12-10-2018, 01:19 AM
  #1985  
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Jeff, assuming he is doing it through a machine shop, I don’t know if he has the facility to do it all himself. To that end I suppose he has a minimum order quantity to do it at a viable cost.
on my engines I’ve just moved the hub, put a little red loctite between the hub and the collet and between the collet and the crankshaft. Tightened them down PROPERLY and none have budged. If it does no real harm will be done to the engine but if it happens in flight, prepare to dead stick it in. Try it on the ground and see how it runs....
my mate got the universal sensor mount which has longer slots, tightened one side down and put locking cable around to the slot on the other side, it’s not going anywhere.
Old 12-10-2018, 05:44 PM
  #1986  
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Originally Posted by aquaskiman
Why don't one of you guys put a degree wheel behind the prop and put a timing light on it? Do this on each cyl. and it will end the mystery of the timing.
Right on aqua! This is the only adequate method to know for sure...

Originally Posted by cathurga
Aquaskiman, we look forward to your findings ;-)
He no longer has his engine... but I suspect that someone will eventually do it.
Old 12-10-2018, 08:15 PM
  #1987  
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Frankly, I don’t see how it is going to prove anything further than what other people have stated. I believe two people have already measured the difference in the timing of cyl’s 2&3. It appears that if the hub timing is 120 deg apart exactly, it causes the timing on 2 to be advanced by 6 deg and retarded by around the same on cyl 3. Going to the trouble of stripping an ignition units cables, creating a negative earth on the engine (plugs don’t have an earth once you’ve remove the sheath) to get a spark and then getting a timing wheel installed to run on the engines, marking all the relevant points to reference the timing light etc, is NOT going to prove anything more than whatever has been proven.
know this though, the timing on this engine is advanced, from the factory, at around 50deg BTDC. This is WRONG.
Aquaskiman, you got rid of all your engines because they all grenaded, right? Do you have any other engines that you have had destroy themselves in this manner? I would like to try and determine whether you have a tendency to abuse/maltreat/misuse engines and I am pretty sure I will not find such a tendency. You operate engines in accordance of manufacturer spec, and the result in all cases but this engine, is that they run well/better without exploding.
the manufacturer of THESE engines used guesswork and statistical deductions to determine spark timing, not scientific methods.

Lets see see how long my engines last, you all get to laugh, point at me and ridicule me when I come back here one day with a pile of scrap. And I WILL report it all to you when it happens.
Old 12-11-2018, 08:12 AM
  #1988  
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cathurga,
I was hoping (but doubted) that my car timing light that has the clamp on wire impulse type sensor would be able to give me a reading through the wire shielding. I do believe that the timing is way to far advanced as described by the previous research and want to experiment with the timing and carburetor tuning. I am curious about how the retard and advance curves were going to map out.
Since I have my FG60 on a Extra 330 so I can do acrobatics, static thrust needs to be optimized. Did you need to re-tune your carburetor settings with the timing set at 30*?
Jeff
Old 12-11-2018, 09:28 AM
  #1989  
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Guys if you want you can go up to 34 BTDC in timing that will be an optimal timing.
Talking with manufacture any change from OEM SETTINGS will void the Warranty. This is all what I can say.
I have something similar coming out for for al radial engine, couple options , ring option and sensor .
Basically replace propdrive keep the sensor, keep propdrive replace the sensor.
But please keep in mind what I have been told from manufacture and that is their decision.
The 3rd option I could do next year will be to make a CDI that will take care of all internally , just replace the CDI and will be the 30BTDC.

Thanks
Adrian
Old 12-11-2018, 09:56 AM
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Thank You Adrian. Those would be very helpful options!!
Old 12-11-2018, 11:16 AM
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Jeff, I really dont know if the car timing light would work, but as mentioned, going through all that trouble when you could simply check the timing on each cylinder by using the wheel and timing light which is probably easier, and easier still if you have the engine on a bench. I actually mad a little wire reference indicator that I bolt to the cam cover, makes it pretty simple to set up and measure. I am travelling a lot at the moment, Spain last week, and Turkey this week, so just dont have the time....will have a bash when I am back, as my engine is in its box.

With regards to the tuning, I know that my HS needle is around 1.25 turns out, and I think the LS is at about 4.5, I never got it running so well when the timing was stock, so not really in a position to compare... On that Seafury in the video, we did 4 x 7 minute flights the other day, on a 450/500ml tank, and never refuled it once....and it was still at a quarter tank when we packed up,so I think it is running more economically....if that means anything.

Since you're flying it on an aerobatic, I understand that you need all the power that you can get, but I would be tempted to use a more powerful, 2-stroke for that sirt of application, considering they are able to handle overheating a little better than these engines, power/weight ratio and efficiency would be better,.....but the noise would be worse! lol!

Adrien, thanks for your input, as someone who is actively involved in making custom applications and ignitions for this hobby, its great to have you around to contribute. Building a hub with a ring would be the best option, particularly if you placed the magnets according to the true TDC of each of the cylinders. Next best option would be the sensor ring, as its easier to install than pulling a hub off.
Similar response I saw from Saito, there is no way they would ever admit to a design flaw like this.....so they will just absolve themselves of all responsibility.....hey, this is business, right?! We dont want them out of this hobby, but let them salvage their pride through the multiple returns they will see with smashed cylinders.....although they have mitigated the damage a little by 'redesigning' the pistons, not saying why, and reducing the compression ratio of the engines. Odd choice, but its theirs to make.... We might see in the future, a little sneaky sensor relocation in new engines....will keep an eye out for that :-)
34Deg BTDC is a good compromise for those that want the ultimate power, but I know from a technical standpoint, that increases in power normally come with some sort of compromise..and that could include a slight drop in longevity, and maybe a little more heat build up. I seek an easy starting model, that will fly my planes nicely and not be a pain in the butt....I am a tinkerer, but have never seen the advantage of running engines on the absolute 'peak' of the needle settings, I would far rather know that the engine is running at good power, without compromising on lubrication and overheating potential. I normally put overpowered engines in most of my planes (it seems the norm in this hobby) so dont really need to fly them on the red line. Actually, warbirds that had radials, were really low revving most of the time, so the Seafury sounds pretty good at lower revs, hurtling by...4T engines really do like a coarser pitch

Adrien, just a question for you; You mentioned that the ignitions do not advance the timing anymore after around 4000rpm, isthis correct? Since you have the option to reprogram your ignitions to remove the glaring timing error, would it not be possible to program the timing to keep advancing AFTER 4000 rpm? Maybe up to 34deg at 5500-6000 rpm? That would be first prize to keep the starting/low revs timing where it should be, and to allow max power at the top end....?

Just a thought, but I dont know how the programming curve/actions works, so I could be talking rubbish....

Last edited by cathurga; 12-11-2018 at 11:20 AM.
Old 12-11-2018, 04:26 PM
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cathurga,
I will experiment with the timing light when I can get outside to run the engine. (cold, wet and windy these days). Also, I have finished the break in runs and want to change over to a full synthetic oil. Do you have a recommendation?
Jeff
Old 12-11-2018, 07:59 PM
  #1993  
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Red Line, 8 Oz to the gallon of methanol free Gas. Mine is 89 Octane.
Sparky
Old 12-11-2018, 08:31 PM
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I agree with sparky, redline is fine. Others at our field are also trending towards Stihl HP as they’ve seen good results with it. (I assume by good results, they mean that engines are getting lubrication and the engines aren’t dismantling themselves)😄
Old 12-13-2018, 02:13 AM
  #1995  
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Guys.
Yesterdag I had a discussion with a guy that has his own car racing company. He designs his own cars and works together with his team on LMP2 cars. He is basically tuning engines all day long.
Long story short:
With the high compression ratio we have, together with the to much advanced timing and using regular fuel, NO engine will survive in the end ever!!!
The default timing shall always be 28-30 degree BTDC.
Ofcourse most saito’s fg60 survive due to the nature not being a racing engine and will run partial power most of the time.
But the thing is, fundamentally Saito made a couple of mistakes. Compression ratio (specs of a glow engine, not gas!), engine ignition timing and more or less geometry of the crankshaft.
You can argue about the “blow-by” oil system and intake system but this is not the reason why engines seize of cylinders break with good oil.
The method they use in racing to get the optimum timing is they put the car on a dyno, go full power and advance the timing until peak power and go back a little.
This is what we could do as well I guess. Put timing, let say about 26 degrees BTDC, go full power and advance the timing until top RPM and then go 1-2 degrees back. I guess nobody wants to volunteer with their vingers half an inch from the running prop?
Old 12-13-2018, 03:40 AM
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Yep, more theory and advice to support our theory of the imperfect design Saito have put out.
But we must do what we can to get a balance between power and longevity.
i used to support the lack of oil ‘blow-by’, and argued that fact a long way back in this thread. That is, until I opened the engine for the first time, and found the crankcase and valve guides/rockers swimming in oil. There is more than enough lube from running a 20:1 mix in these engines. I’ve never been opposed to the inlet design really, apart from the fact that the lower cylinders DO get a richer mixture and this is evident by the temps of those two being lower, and by the run in process not getting the bottom two to fire properly. The intake would benefit from that inlet plenum/chamber being smaller and by stopping fuel dripping into the lower two inlets, potentially causing a hydrolock. I don’t think hydrolock has caused breakages, most failures have happened with running engines.
The compression ratio is also not as big a concern in my opinion, although if could be putting strain on big ends, crank bearings and gudgeons, but with the timing set at 28deg I think it should be ok. If it is a factor then those with the new pistons and correct timing will have the best setup possible for these engines.
i already tried moving the timing on a running engine LOL!😄 That’s how I found out that pushing the timing all the way up towards TDC (retarding it) when the sensor was in the stock position, made it run best. It wasn’t difficult or scary to do as I loosened the screws first, started it, then moved the sensor in small increments, the challenge is trying to stabilise/rest your hand on a HOT running engine, putting gloves on helped, but made it more difficult to shift the sensor in small increments.
Old 12-13-2018, 04:33 AM
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The other way to do the timing changes for power is to measure the number of degrees that the sensor can cover along its slide, I reckon it’s about 8-10deg. Then get a piece of white tape, remove the sensor and stick the tape under it. Mark where 30deg is, and where the limits are either side of 30, divide that into equal increments. Put the timing at 30 deg, run it and check revs. Stop the engine and move up by increments. It should offer between 25-35 deg movement. I reckon the sweet spot will be around 34deg as Adrien mentioned.
Old 12-13-2018, 06:55 AM
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I think the timing light on a running engine will eliminate all guessing as to where the engine is fireing, I gave away my timing light eons ago.
Sparky
Old 12-13-2018, 07:58 AM
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I’d consider doing that if I knew a strobe would pick up a signal through the braid, otherwise the braid would need to be removed and another earth created for the spark, possibly through earthing the engine. I don’t really want to destroy an ignition trying this.
the guesswork regarding the initiation of the hall sensor is gone, confirmed by Adrien and RCExel. The only thing left for ME to do is measure where the lower two cyls TDC is in relation to the magnet, this can be done with a degree wheel and a piston stop.
it may SEEM easier with a timing light but there are other hoops to jump through to do that.
Old 12-16-2018, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by elmshoot
I think the timing light on a running engine will eliminate all guessing as to where the engine is fireing, I gave away my timing light eons ago.
Sparky
Spot on!

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