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Saito FG-60R3

Old 01-20-2019, 12:59 AM
  #2051  
slither
 
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Sorry to hear of your woes! Just when you think you have it figured out... boom! Seems like it's always something. No "egg on your face," though. I have some information that may be of minor comfort.

I called Ray a couple of times as this thread has been developing, to further inquire about the timing concerns being discussed. The last time was about a week and a half ago. Both times he was adamant about the timing being correct on the 60R3. A few days went by, and then I got a call from him, where he announced that he had "egg all over his face!" He said he was taking the measurements off the 84R3 and 90R3, and basing his determination on that. He happened to get a brand-new 60R3 in the shop, and decided to examine it more closely. Viola! He found that the timing is, in fact, off! He said it was preliminary and that he needed to run the numbers with his giant degree wheel before he knew exactly how much deviation exists. I was impressed that he was willing to admit his faux pas. It takes a big man to admit he is wrong, but that is so very important! Ray is looking into making a correctly timed thrust washer for this issue. More on that as it unfolds...

In any event, your engine likely suffered from a design flaw that led to the failure. Perhaps you can take some solace in being vindicated!
Old 01-20-2019, 06:49 AM
  #2052  
elmshoot
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Communications with Ray months ago said we were barking up the wrong tree.
It's heart warming to know that a bonified engine expert has come to the same conclusion!
Sparky
Old 01-20-2019, 07:22 AM
  #2053  
Didier
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Originally Posted by cathurga
Didier, yeah it happens, but I was hoping it wouldn’t happen to me, and moreover, I wanted the timing to resolve this problem.
i realise that this engine has had problems before And has been my ‘test’ bed for a while it has done many test hours and has been subjected to advanced timing, different oils, it’s had some odd gaskets installed in the past so I’m hoping that this failure has been a lot of different factors at work.
i haven’t removed the other cylinders, and probably won’t, but I will have a look at the exhaust ports, if I see the same build up there, then I might consider an oil change to stihl. As far as damage goes, the piston shows some slight scuffing that is probably from the failure, the ring is whole and looks fine. I am replacing cylinder, piston, valves and ring. It makes sense. There are no ‘particles’ from the failure so will just do that and then put Morris’ ring on it, and send it up again.
Sorry to hear about the blown up cylinders.
Hopefully you get it sorted out quickly.
Although 140 degree Celsius seems ok, but is 5200 RPM not to much load?
Old 01-20-2019, 07:30 AM
  #2054  
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Ladies and gentlemen.
I have got the rings from Morris.
Nicely made.
Old 01-21-2019, 06:28 AM
  #2055  
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I couldn't find it on the web site how about a link?
Sparky
Old 01-21-2019, 06:45 AM
  #2056  
757jonp
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elmshoot-- Just ordered one. It's listed under "gas conversion kits".

https://www.morrisminimotors.com/con...nder-4-stroke-
Old 01-21-2019, 07:51 AM
  #2057  
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Originally Posted by slither
I called Ray a couple of times as this thread has been developing, to further inquire about the timing concerns being discussed. The last time was about a week and a half ago. Both times he was adamant about the timing being correct on the 60R3. A few days went by, and then I got a call from him, where he announced that he had "egg all over his face!" He said he was taking the measurements off the 84R3 and 90R3, and basing his determination on that.
Does this mean the 84 and 90 don't have these timing issues?
Old 01-21-2019, 08:29 AM
  #2058  
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Adrien at CH-Ignitions has a video of the 84, same problem. Mate of mine here has the 90, same problem.
its the same for the entire range, Morris has also explored the 19 & 33. Universal issue.
Old 01-21-2019, 08:40 AM
  #2059  
Reverend
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Originally Posted by cathurga
Adrien at CH-Ignitions has a video of the 84, same problem. Mate of mine here has the 90, same problem.
its the same for the entire range, Morris has also explored the 19 & 33. Universal issue.
What do you reckon is the reason only the 60 blows cylinders? Critical mass of displacement vs strength of the cylinder base?
Old 01-21-2019, 09:36 AM
  #2060  
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Well, previously I was convinced that the timing was the cause of the issue, by simple virtue of the fact that pre-ignition was occurring and causing excessive pressure in the cylinders. That coupled with the fact that the material thickness on the mounting lugs, is a little lacking.
Old 01-21-2019, 09:49 AM
  #2061  
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Originally Posted by cathurga
Adrien at CH-Ignitions has a video of the 84, same problem. Mate of mine here has the 90, same problem.
its the same for the entire range, Morris has also explored the 19 & 33. Universal issue.
Thanks. Was hoping I didn't have to order for the 84 and save some money.
Old 01-21-2019, 09:59 AM
  #2062  
757jonp
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I've never saved much money playing with toy engines! Shoulda taken knitting lessons when I had the chance....
Old 01-21-2019, 10:33 AM
  #2063  
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Knitting you say? But then you would have to have the carbon fibre, custom painted knitting needles....and those don’t come cheap :-)
Old 01-21-2019, 11:53 AM
  #2064  
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Looking at my wife's craft room I bet she has just as much money "invested" in her yarn and fabric as I have in my airplanes, lol.
Old 01-21-2019, 12:37 PM
  #2065  
757jonp
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Man, I could make some serious mistakes quickly with those needles... LOL

The last sewing machine she got was around 8K. That's a lot of toy engines, so I'm good to go for awhile! (at least that's the way I see it, her opinion may differ)
Old 01-21-2019, 09:46 PM
  #2066  
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I just placed my order from Morris. They are not in stock right now apparently the first run sold out but he said it should be done in a week or two.
Given the temps and snow I'm in no hurry.
Sparky
Old 01-23-2019, 07:08 PM
  #2067  
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Originally Posted by khoysagk
Does this mean the 84 and 90 don't have these timing issues?
That was the implication, but not explicitly said. I do not know, but I would guess that it is the same basic design, and, thus, they both have the same issues. I am amazed, and thoroughly disappointed, that Saito could screw this engine series up so incredibly!
Old 01-24-2019, 03:05 AM
  #2068  
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Cathurga, bummer about the cylinder failure. Do you see any casting defects or temperature discolorations around the base? I wonder if a labratory metals analysis would be feasable costwise?
PS: i got my morrismini timing ring yestday. I hope to get a run test done soon.
Old 01-24-2019, 07:38 PM
  #2069  
elmshoot
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The timing ring from Morris is $93.59+/- I hope this is a worthy investment.
Sparky
Old 01-24-2019, 08:01 PM
  #2070  
slither
 
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Originally Posted by elmshoot
The timing ring from Morris is $93.59+/- I hope this is a worthy investment.
Sparky
Yikes!!
Old 01-25-2019, 09:18 AM
  #2071  
757jonp
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Yikes is right! I paid about the same amount the other day. I used my SB lathe to turn a new drive washer for a Saito 270 twin recently with good results, but I was concerned about getting the indexing on all those magnets right for the FG60. The 300 only needed one magnet and it didn't matter where it was placed.
Old 01-26-2019, 05:25 AM
  #2072  
elmshoot
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Originally Posted by slither
Yikes!!
In for a penny.....
And i don't have any issues with my engine so far....
Sparky
Old 01-29-2019, 08:00 AM
  #2073  
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Anyone run their engine with the Morris ring yet? Results?
Old 01-29-2019, 07:13 PM
  #2074  
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So if I am reading the last few pages right, the Saito 60 is offand unequal geometrically, but Saito did not account for that with ignition timing? Then to top that off, they are running 45-50 degrees of ignition advance???
I have one of these that was damaged in a crash and I will be fixing soon.
Thanks
Jeff
Old 01-29-2019, 08:38 PM
  #2075  
elmshoot
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Originally Posted by khoysagk
Anyone run their engine with the Morris ring yet? Results?
Give me three months its too cold right now!
Sparky

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