Saito FG-60R3
#2051
Sorry to hear of your woes! Just when you think you have it figured out... boom! Seems like it's always something. No "egg on your face," though. I have some information that may be of minor comfort.
I called Ray a couple of times as this thread has been developing, to further inquire about the timing concerns being discussed. The last time was about a week and a half ago. Both times he was adamant about the timing being correct on the 60R3. A few days went by, and then I got a call from him, where he announced that he had "egg all over his face!" He said he was taking the measurements off the 84R3 and 90R3, and basing his determination on that. He happened to get a brand-new 60R3 in the shop, and decided to examine it more closely. Viola! He found that the timing is, in fact, off! He said it was preliminary and that he needed to run the numbers with his giant degree wheel before he knew exactly how much deviation exists. I was impressed that he was willing to admit his faux pas. It takes a big man to admit he is wrong, but that is so very important! Ray is looking into making a correctly timed thrust washer for this issue. More on that as it unfolds...
In any event, your engine likely suffered from a design flaw that led to the failure. Perhaps you can take some solace in being vindicated!
I called Ray a couple of times as this thread has been developing, to further inquire about the timing concerns being discussed. The last time was about a week and a half ago. Both times he was adamant about the timing being correct on the 60R3. A few days went by, and then I got a call from him, where he announced that he had "egg all over his face!" He said he was taking the measurements off the 84R3 and 90R3, and basing his determination on that. He happened to get a brand-new 60R3 in the shop, and decided to examine it more closely. Viola! He found that the timing is, in fact, off! He said it was preliminary and that he needed to run the numbers with his giant degree wheel before he knew exactly how much deviation exists. I was impressed that he was willing to admit his faux pas. It takes a big man to admit he is wrong, but that is so very important! Ray is looking into making a correctly timed thrust washer for this issue. More on that as it unfolds...
In any event, your engine likely suffered from a design flaw that led to the failure. Perhaps you can take some solace in being vindicated!
#2053
Senior Member
Didier, yeah it happens, but I was hoping it wouldn’t happen to me, and moreover, I wanted the timing to resolve this problem.
i realise that this engine has had problems before And has been my ‘test’ bed for a while it has done many test hours and has been subjected to advanced timing, different oils, it’s had some odd gaskets installed in the past so I’m hoping that this failure has been a lot of different factors at work.
i haven’t removed the other cylinders, and probably won’t, but I will have a look at the exhaust ports, if I see the same build up there, then I might consider an oil change to stihl. As far as damage goes, the piston shows some slight scuffing that is probably from the failure, the ring is whole and looks fine. I am replacing cylinder, piston, valves and ring. It makes sense. There are no ‘particles’ from the failure so will just do that and then put Morris’ ring on it, and send it up again.
i realise that this engine has had problems before And has been my ‘test’ bed for a while it has done many test hours and has been subjected to advanced timing, different oils, it’s had some odd gaskets installed in the past so I’m hoping that this failure has been a lot of different factors at work.
i haven’t removed the other cylinders, and probably won’t, but I will have a look at the exhaust ports, if I see the same build up there, then I might consider an oil change to stihl. As far as damage goes, the piston shows some slight scuffing that is probably from the failure, the ring is whole and looks fine. I am replacing cylinder, piston, valves and ring. It makes sense. There are no ‘particles’ from the failure so will just do that and then put Morris’ ring on it, and send it up again.
Hopefully you get it sorted out quickly.
Although 140 degree Celsius seems ok, but is 5200 RPM not to much load?
#2057
My Feedback: (2)
I called Ray a couple of times as this thread has been developing, to further inquire about the timing concerns being discussed. The last time was about a week and a half ago. Both times he was adamant about the timing being correct on the 60R3. A few days went by, and then I got a call from him, where he announced that he had "egg all over his face!" He said he was taking the measurements off the 84R3 and 90R3, and basing his determination on that.
#2058
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dubai, UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Adrien at CH-Ignitions has a video of the 84, same problem. Mate of mine here has the 90, same problem.
its the same for the entire range, Morris has also explored the 19 & 33. Universal issue.
its the same for the entire range, Morris has also explored the 19 & 33. Universal issue.
#2060
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dubai, UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Well, previously I was convinced that the timing was the cause of the issue, by simple virtue of the fact that pre-ignition was occurring and causing excessive pressure in the cylinders. That coupled with the fact that the material thickness on the mounting lugs, is a little lacking.
#2067
That was the implication, but not explicitly said. I do not know, but I would guess that it is the same basic design, and, thus, they both have the same issues. I am amazed, and thoroughly disappointed, that Saito could screw this engine series up so incredibly!
#2068
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Sherwood,
OR
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Cathurga, bummer about the cylinder failure. Do you see any casting defects or temperature discolorations around the base? I wonder if a labratory metals analysis would be feasable costwise?
PS: i got my morrismini timing ring yestday. I hope to get a run test done soon.
PS: i got my morrismini timing ring yestday. I hope to get a run test done soon.
#2071
My Feedback: (48)
Yikes is right! I paid about the same amount the other day. I used my SB lathe to turn a new drive washer for a Saito 270 twin recently with good results, but I was concerned about getting the indexing on all those magnets right for the FG60. The 300 only needed one magnet and it didn't matter where it was placed.
#2074
My Feedback: (43)
So if I am reading the last few pages right, the Saito 60 is offand unequal geometrically, but Saito did not account for that with ignition timing? Then to top that off, they are running 45-50 degrees of ignition advance???
I have one of these that was damaged in a crash and I will be fixing soon.
Thanks
Jeff
I have one of these that was damaged in a crash and I will be fixing soon.
Thanks
Jeff