Saito FG-60R3
02-06-2019, 01:14 PM
#2077
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Sherwood,
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I received my morris ring a few weeks back and had a false start when i could not get it to start. Turned out to be a carburetor issue, from sitting I guess. After I verified the timing about 6 times and opened the carb needles to the full open position (and a shot of parts cleaner), then put the needles back to break in levels. She started first flick.
The air temp is pretty cold (34*f) and the cylinder temps are lower than with the 54* timing. ( I am measuring with sensors mounted to the exhaust headers). The interesting thing here is that now #2 is now the cold cylinder? idle is at 1650rpm #1=149*f, #2=84*f, #3=135*f. At 4,000rpm, #1=202*f, #2=103*f, #3=195*f. I was hoping for a more even cylinder temp spread. Max rpm was 6500 with a 22"x8" carbon prop. Needle settings were HS=1.5, LS=5. (with throttle at full close).
I did not have time to dial it in any further on the bench. I hope to actually get some flying time soon and I will also try a 24"x8" prop to see if she makes any better torque for the vertical up lines.
The air temp is pretty cold (34*f) and the cylinder temps are lower than with the 54* timing. ( I am measuring with sensors mounted to the exhaust headers). The interesting thing here is that now #2 is now the cold cylinder? idle is at 1650rpm #1=149*f, #2=84*f, #3=135*f. At 4,000rpm, #1=202*f, #2=103*f, #3=195*f. I was hoping for a more even cylinder temp spread. Max rpm was 6500 with a 22"x8" carbon prop. Needle settings were HS=1.5, LS=5. (with throttle at full close).
I did not have time to dial it in any further on the bench. I hope to actually get some flying time soon and I will also try a 24"x8" prop to see if she makes any better torque for the vertical up lines.
02-07-2019, 08:36 AM
#2078
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dubai, UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Jeff, at break in settings, you are never going to get cyl temps right, they will only get closer to their standard running temps when they are not running slobbery rich. I wouldnt make any assumptions on temp differences until you have it in the sweet spot.
Sorry I have been a bit quiet here, but life has been pretty busy on the work front, and I am waiting for all my replacement parts from Morris, to put the engine back to good. I decided to strip the entire thing so I can do a de-coke. Anyone here been running for a while on redline at 20:1 that is willing to remove the exhaust and see what the exhaust valve looks like...I would like to know whether mine is an isolated occurence of that MASSIVE carbon buildup a pictured earlier.
Sorry I have been a bit quiet here, but life has been pretty busy on the work front, and I am waiting for all my replacement parts from Morris, to put the engine back to good. I decided to strip the entire thing so I can do a de-coke. Anyone here been running for a while on redline at 20:1 that is willing to remove the exhaust and see what the exhaust valve looks like...I would like to know whether mine is an isolated occurence of that MASSIVE carbon buildup a pictured earlier.
02-07-2019, 03:19 PM
#2079
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Sherwood,
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I received my morris ring a few weeks back and had a false start when i could not get it to start. Turned out to be a carburetor issue, from sitting I guess. After I verified the timing about 6 times and opened the carb needles to the full open position (and a shot of parts cleaner), then put the needles back to break in levels. She started first flick.
The air temp is pretty cold (34*f) and the cylinder temps are lower than with the 54* timing. ( I am measuring with sensors mounted to the exhaust headers). The interesting thing here is that now #2 is now the cold cylinder? idle is at 1650rpm #1=149*f, #2=84*f, #3=135*f. At 4,000rpm, #1=202*f, #2=103*f, #3=195*f. I was hoping for a more even cylinder temp spread. Max rpm was 6500 with a 22"x8" carbon prop. Needle settings were HS=1.5, LS=5. (with throttle at full close).
I did not have time to dial it in any further on the bench. I hope to actually get some flying time soon and I will also try a 24"x8" prop to see if she makes any better torque for the vertical up lines.
The air temp is pretty cold (34*f) and the cylinder temps are lower than with the 54* timing. ( I am measuring with sensors mounted to the exhaust headers). The interesting thing here is that now #2 is now the cold cylinder? idle is at 1650rpm #1=149*f, #2=84*f, #3=135*f. At 4,000rpm, #1=202*f, #2=103*f, #3=195*f. I was hoping for a more even cylinder temp spread. Max rpm was 6500 with a 22"x8" carbon prop. Needle settings were HS=1.5, LS=5. (with throttle at full close).
I did not have time to dial it in any further on the bench. I hope to actually get some flying time soon and I will also try a 24"x8" prop to see if she makes any better torque for the vertical up lines.
02-08-2019, 11:11 AM
#2080
Member
Hi to all, I follow this post for some months now...
I have also a FG60R3 in a Beaver Hangar 9, and as you all I had some troubles from the start in ... Nov 2014
I have made some mods :
- intake gas pass only through the crankcase.
- MMM carb
- Timing modification : I have just rotate the sensor by 15° : It works better and smoother but all 3 timings are not the same
- MMM timing ring : it seems now to be perfect, Idle is now lower as 1000rpm. All timing are now 30 degree BTDC
Next step : to fly with this setup !
Note : this engine has currently about 25 hours running time
Jean-Marc
I have also a FG60R3 in a Beaver Hangar 9, and as you all I had some troubles from the start in ... Nov 2014
I have made some mods :
- intake gas pass only through the crankcase.
- MMM carb
- Timing modification : I have just rotate the sensor by 15° : It works better and smoother but all 3 timings are not the same
- MMM timing ring : it seems now to be perfect, Idle is now lower as 1000rpm. All timing are now 30 degree BTDC
Next step : to fly with this setup !
Note : this engine has currently about 25 hours running time
Jean-Marc
Last edited by JieM; 02-08-2019 at 11:32 AM.
02-08-2019, 12:46 PM
#2081
My Feedback: (48)
Pretty nice down here in Virginia today, and I just got my MMM drive washer in my grubby little hands. I really wanted to see what kind of before and after effect this adjustment in timing would make, so with that in mind I got the P47 out and fired it up. After a good warmup I observed exhaust temps of 170, 200,182 at 5000 RPM, Max 5900 RPM, best idle 1500 RPM +/- (cyl 1, 2, 3 air temp about 65, fuel 100LL @ 15:1 Klotz mix 22X10 prop) After installing the new drive washer and resetting the timing @ 30 degrees I came up with 172, 196, 172. at the same RPM, max 6100, good dependable idle @1300.
Frankly I expected temps to come out better than that. Other than a little better idle and top end, I didn't see much change. Carb was never touched. Hmmmm,...
Frankly I expected temps to come out better than that. Other than a little better idle and top end, I didn't see much change. Carb was never touched. Hmmmm,...
02-08-2019, 07:49 PM
#2082
My Feedback: (6)
Unheard of for a model engine! You are off the scale on longevity. I would say if you have 25 hours on the engine without issue I would see little need to "improve it" and by most accounts I've read most would consider this engine worn out.
Was this run time accumulated in one model airplane that was flown for the 25 hours you claim.
I would love to see some performance numbers on this well used engine.
Sparky
Was this run time accumulated in one model airplane that was flown for the 25 hours you claim.
I would love to see some performance numbers on this well used engine.
Sparky
02-08-2019, 11:54 PM
#2083
Member
Unheard of for a model engine! You are off the scale on longevity. I would say if you have 25 hours on the engine without issue I would see little need to "improve it" and by most accounts I've read most would consider this engine worn out.
Was this run time accumulated in one model airplane that was flown for the 25 hours you claim.
I would love to see some performance numbers on this well used engine.
Sparky
Was this run time accumulated in one model airplane that was flown for the 25 hours you claim.
I would love to see some performance numbers on this well used engine.
Sparky
I bought this engine to put it in a H9 Beaver, and to have a nice fly at 4000rpm. Just to have a melody in accordance with the real one. I use a 22 x 10 or 12 prop, that's why I need a very low iddle, to have a realistic landing.
The 25 hours of flights = 12 hours of flight and 13 hours of test bench to test the various modifications.
In view of the different modifications, I will say that the most effective ones are:
- the passage of the gases in the crankcase (I don't see this modification on this post). This modification reduces drasticly the temperature of the cankcase (and the cylinders). There is in France a craftsman "Modeling Micromotor Services" (MMS) which proposes it by modifying the rear flange, This guy, Olivier Rogeau contributed to this post some month ago, but no one as answered to his contribution. My solution is different from the MMS and MMM solution but is working well too.
- the ignition advance at 30 degrees for the 3 cylinders (MMM ring solution)
Currently, I can not post links or photos, since I have not yet post 10 messages (RCU rules). I will do this as soon as possible.
Jean-Marc
02-09-2019, 11:59 PM
#2086
Member
02-10-2019, 05:46 AM
#2087
My Feedback: (43)
From JM....
Pictures of my first intake modification made in 2015.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qvccpn166g...ition.JPG?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/96y2jjm8mv...coupe.JPG?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wcntp3j5bo...93552.jpg?dl=0
I first print this part in ABS to test the solution, and after that a friend machined an aluminum part.
I made an additionnal mod begenning 2019 by drilling 3 holes in the rear flange.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p2mvf20ms2...70317.jpg?dl=0
Pictures of my first intake modification made in 2015.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qvccpn166g...ition.JPG?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/96y2jjm8mv...coupe.JPG?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wcntp3j5bo...93552.jpg?dl=0
I first print this part in ABS to test the solution, and after that a friend machined an aluminum part.
I made an additionnal mod begenning 2019 by drilling 3 holes in the rear flange.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p2mvf20ms2...70317.jpg?dl=0
02-11-2019, 10:40 PM
#2089
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dubai, UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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I have always been intrigued by the 'negative pressure' crankcase option, my first reaction is that it seems logical to aid with lubrication of crank and rotating mass. All 2-stroke engines work this way, and the Saito design of using only blow-by to do that job, is very 'glow' where you tend to have more slobber to actually get past the piston and rings, doesnt really fit well with gas.
Morris has a nice design as well, which includes lengthening the induction pipes further into the plenum, which will avoid any excess, unvaporised fuel getting into the cylinders, negating the chance of hydrolocking.
Thing thing that I am NOT sold on (yet), is the fact that all the oil that collects in the crankcase, has nowhere to go! Usually this will be spat out of the breather pipe, but since that is blocked off, then there is nowhere for it to get dumped. Is the crankcase just slowly going to fill up? Do you drain it from time to time? Also, that oil will be sat in there when not running, and it is most likely going to head towards the cylinders that are lowest and the oil will pool in the bottom of the piston, and also leak past into the combustion chamber, no?
Another aspect that is a benefit of this setup, is the fact that incoming, vaporised fuel/air mix will be entering the crankcase, providing cool air and lowering temps (I assume), but it also begs the question of how it affects the tuning.
I am gearing towards getting Morris' mod for negative crankcase pressure for the engine I am rebuilding, but it will take some time as I need to get the parts over to him at some point, shipping is costly. Perhaps this may be the solution to the carbon build up in the engines, as the fuel/oil mix ratio can be dropped to 30:1 which may mean less 'oiliness' to burn through.I run ALL my 2-stroked on redline at 40:1, and even in the heat of summer, I dont get overheating and carbon build up like I have seen on the FG60.
It really is not good that we have to do all these mods, and I would love to know what the ACTUAL failure rate of engines is, as a percentage of engines sold. I dont think we will ever know this, but it would make for interesting reading. Are we in the lower percentile of engine failure vs. numbers sold? There are 2 guys at our field who are running them stock, and have not changed a thing. One of them gets flown hard, but not very regularly, the other gets flown maybe 10 flights a year, and is still ticking over and doing its thing.
Weird, but interesting.
Morris has a nice design as well, which includes lengthening the induction pipes further into the plenum, which will avoid any excess, unvaporised fuel getting into the cylinders, negating the chance of hydrolocking.
Thing thing that I am NOT sold on (yet), is the fact that all the oil that collects in the crankcase, has nowhere to go! Usually this will be spat out of the breather pipe, but since that is blocked off, then there is nowhere for it to get dumped. Is the crankcase just slowly going to fill up? Do you drain it from time to time? Also, that oil will be sat in there when not running, and it is most likely going to head towards the cylinders that are lowest and the oil will pool in the bottom of the piston, and also leak past into the combustion chamber, no?
Another aspect that is a benefit of this setup, is the fact that incoming, vaporised fuel/air mix will be entering the crankcase, providing cool air and lowering temps (I assume), but it also begs the question of how it affects the tuning.
I am gearing towards getting Morris' mod for negative crankcase pressure for the engine I am rebuilding, but it will take some time as I need to get the parts over to him at some point, shipping is costly. Perhaps this may be the solution to the carbon build up in the engines, as the fuel/oil mix ratio can be dropped to 30:1 which may mean less 'oiliness' to burn through.I run ALL my 2-stroked on redline at 40:1, and even in the heat of summer, I dont get overheating and carbon build up like I have seen on the FG60.
It really is not good that we have to do all these mods, and I would love to know what the ACTUAL failure rate of engines is, as a percentage of engines sold. I dont think we will ever know this, but it would make for interesting reading. Are we in the lower percentile of engine failure vs. numbers sold? There are 2 guys at our field who are running them stock, and have not changed a thing. One of them gets flown hard, but not very regularly, the other gets flown maybe 10 flights a year, and is still ticking over and doing its thing.
Weird, but interesting.
02-11-2019, 11:25 PM
#2090
Member
As I have published less than 10 messages for the moment, RCU does not allow me to publish links. I send them to you in your PM box.
This is an .stl file that I used to print a part in ABS. You can also print it in Pa6 (Nylon) if your 3D printer allow this. It makes it possible to run the engine to check the validity of the solution.
I then machined this aluminum part and this part is now mounted on the engine for over 3 years.
The interest of this solution is that it is reversible.
Note: you must of course plug the vent at the front of the engine.
I also add a YT link with the engine running with these different modifications.
Can you share them?
Thank you
02-12-2019, 12:02 AM
#2091
Member
Thing thing that I am NOT sold on (yet), is the fact that all the oil that collects in the crankcase, has nowhere to go! Usually this will be spat out of the breather pipe, but since that is blocked off, then there is nowhere for it to get dumped. Is the crankcase just slowly going to fill up? Do you drain it from time to time? Also, that oil will be sat in there when not running, and it is most likely going to head towards the cylinders that are lowest and the oil will pool in the bottom of the piston, and also leak past into the combustion chamber, no?
Another aspect that is a benefit of this setup, is the fact that incoming, vaporised fuel/air mix will be entering the crankcase, providing cool air and lowering temps (I assume), but it also begs the question of how it affects the tuning.
Weird, but interesting.
Another aspect that is a benefit of this setup, is the fact that incoming, vaporised fuel/air mix will be entering the crankcase, providing cool air and lowering temps (I assume), but it also begs the question of how it affects the tuning.
Weird, but interesting.
Whenever I dismounted the engine to make these various modifications, I did not find more oil in the low engine than with the standard solution.
In fact, some oil is actually deposited at the bottom of the crankcase, but once the engine is running, this oil is sucked and mixed with the air that goes into the cylinders.
So the engine smokes a little bit during the first few seconds of running. Like a P & W!
But for sure the crankcase is much less hot than with the standard solution.
Another point: as stated, my engine rarely rotates a long time on max rpm. It is mounted on a Beaver, and usually runs between 3500 and 4500 rpm.
Regarding the conversion proposed by artisans, you can also google "modelisme-micromoteurs-service.com/upgrade/"
This solution works well and is cheaper than the MMM one. OK the site is in french ...
Other point I use 1:25 mix.
And last point: you're right, this engine obviously suffers from a design problem, but it's also a challenge for me to get it to work properly. And that's also part of the pleasure ...
JM
Last edited by JieM; 02-12-2019 at 12:05 AM.
02-12-2019, 06:45 AM
#2092
My Feedback: (48)
And last point: you're right, this engine obviously suffers from a design problem, but it's also a challenge for me to get it to work properly. And that's also part of the pleasure ...
I agree in that it's a challenge to get the engine running right, not so much a pleasure spending a ton of money to do it though! lol
I did look into what MMS was doing as far as using the crankcase as part of the intake system and I think that's a much better system than stock, but shortly after that MMM came out with his intake mod along the same general design.(?) I was under the impression they were cooperating with one another on that mod.
I agree in that it's a challenge to get the engine running right, not so much a pleasure spending a ton of money to do it though! lol
I did look into what MMS was doing as far as using the crankcase as part of the intake system and I think that's a much better system than stock, but shortly after that MMM came out with his intake mod along the same general design.(?) I was under the impression they were cooperating with one another on that mod.
02-12-2019, 06:55 AM
#2095
My Feedback: (48)
Hey Jeff... I doubt you'll hear anything from Saito about anything they do. Just recently they (apparently) redesigned the piston used in the FG-60, but never a peep out of them as to why they did that as far as I know.
Pretty tight lipped bunch over there!
Pretty tight lipped bunch over there!
02-12-2019, 08:56 AM
#2096
Join Date: May 2007
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https://www.stihl.com/stihl-engine-technology.aspx
Stihl has a video of thier 4stroke lubrication system on a single cylinder. IMO it is not very acurate (no crankcase nipple vapor movement, etc.) , but it does provide a visualization of the concept. Thanks to Stihl for that effort!
JJ
Stihl has a video of thier 4stroke lubrication system on a single cylinder. IMO it is not very acurate (no crankcase nipple vapor movement, etc.) , but it does provide a visualization of the concept. Thanks to Stihl for that effort!
JJ
02-12-2019, 09:24 AM
#2097
Member
Just FYI, if we take a look to Saïto facility, we cannot really speak about a high tech factory...Find on Aero-naut web side, who distribute Saito in Europe...
Add just 3w to have the link .aero-naut.de/unternehmen/saito-seisakusho-co-ltd/
JM
Add just 3w to have the link .aero-naut.de/unternehmen/saito-seisakusho-co-ltd/
JM
02-12-2019, 09:57 PM
#2098
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dubai, UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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JeffH,
Yeah, some YS engines dont have a breather, and I have had OS engines that had the breather redirected to a nipple on the inlet manifold/induction tube. These are all glow engines, and I know that some of them did cause some problems when they go older, and people were blocking the nipple and just venting the breather to atmosphere. I dont know if these were isolated incidents or not. It still worries me a bit that dirty air/oil will be going into the combustion chamber. Hey, who am I to say...LOL.
It is concerning that there are a lot of backorder parts at Horizon, not just that plenum, but also the throttle bodies, crankcase and a few other things as well. I would be surprised if they can this engine completely, and come out with an FG-63 or something a little different and either implement a bunch of changes and then just ditch support for FG-60..... its been done before.
I am going to do the MMM mod to my test engine, after repairing the busted parts, and then I think I am going to let these engines just 'be'. I have already spent a lot of money on them, and I am not filled with confidence as to whether they will ever run properly and be reliable. Totally redesigning a madly designed product is fun for a while, but if we are going to be left to fend for ourselves after paying all this money for an engine, and then they remove support, is not a good thing.
Yeah, some YS engines dont have a breather, and I have had OS engines that had the breather redirected to a nipple on the inlet manifold/induction tube. These are all glow engines, and I know that some of them did cause some problems when they go older, and people were blocking the nipple and just venting the breather to atmosphere. I dont know if these were isolated incidents or not. It still worries me a bit that dirty air/oil will be going into the combustion chamber. Hey, who am I to say...LOL.
It is concerning that there are a lot of backorder parts at Horizon, not just that plenum, but also the throttle bodies, crankcase and a few other things as well. I would be surprised if they can this engine completely, and come out with an FG-63 or something a little different and either implement a bunch of changes and then just ditch support for FG-60..... its been done before.
I am going to do the MMM mod to my test engine, after repairing the busted parts, and then I think I am going to let these engines just 'be'. I have already spent a lot of money on them, and I am not filled with confidence as to whether they will ever run properly and be reliable. Totally redesigning a madly designed product is fun for a while, but if we are going to be left to fend for ourselves after paying all this money for an engine, and then they remove support, is not a good thing.
02-12-2019, 10:02 PM
#2099
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dubai, UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Going back to the beginning of this thread, I see this engine is 4 years in production, so the chance of it being disco'd completely, is probably real....
UMS anyone? :-)
UMS anyone? :-)
02-12-2019, 11:41 PM
#2100
Member
As I use Rimfire (or Rcexl) plugs, somethime, the Saito spark plug cap snaps out during high revs. These plugs have not the groove to retain the Saito cap spring.
How do you do to solve this issue ?
Thanks
JM
How do you do to solve this issue ?
Thanks
JM
