speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

OK so hopefully all the drama of this thread is over. Please beleive me when I say that I truly would like to see you be successful with this engine. When adjusted and everything in proper working order this engine should be very easily hand started. If there is a reason why you feel the need to use a starter please let us know. If the need for the starter is simply because the engine is difficult to start I would be more then happy to offer suggestions to getting it starting reliably.

Truckracer

My Feedback: (19)

Not sure why but I finally read this thread after ignoring it for the last few days. I own (2) Q75 engines and believe it would be extremely challenging "for the average guy" to successfully start one with a starter, even using the proper cone and HD starter. Speedracer, you described to a "T" what the pitfalls might be .... with a helper pushing the airplane towards the starter and the starter pushing back. Looks extremely dangerous to me. Now giant scale racers start large engines all the time this way but that is the key to success ..... they do it with experienced helpers and proper equipment. For the OP to be successful using a starter, I would think a spinner would be mandatory and maybe even a cart mounted starter.

The Q75's were high quality engines with excellent ring fit which relates to high compression and high cranking forces. Opening the compression release that many of these engines were equipped with would help but as soon as the engine fires, the release closes and you are back to full compression and bucking the starter.

We don't know if the OP has any issues that prevents hand propping but if he does, I'd recommend an assistant do the starting and forget the starter. This is common in full scale where a pilot is unable to hand prop his engine for whatever reason. Someone comfortable with the process makes it look easy.

Now did I answer the OP's question ..... not really or directly but like others, I hope I helped a tiny bit.

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

+1

1QwkSport2.5r

I've been reading this thread with some interest. I'm a GlowHead, not much a fan of gasoline but I do read all of the forums though as one can learn all sorts of things in places you wouldn't expect to do so... Some of you guys have conviction about certain things that amazes me. I'd like to know, exactly why is it such a big deal to not use an electric starter on a bigger gasoline fueled engine? I read about some guys that only hand-start big glow 4-strokes and won't use a electric starter on them. I've had a few kickbacks trying to hand start a 10cc glow 4-stroke that hurt like hell. It was over-primed the first time, so later attempts were under-primed and I still got whacked once. Maybe I never got the 'trick', but they start like a dream with a starter. I dare not hand start my 20cc 4-stroke; the compression is really high. If it were a gasoline 20-30cc 2-stroke, I'd maybe try hand starting once but likely would want to use an electric starter. Pardon my naivety, just want to understand what the core safety concern is.

flyinwalenda

My Feedback: (5)

Well there a few posters in this thread who brought in the drama and feel the OP(and everyone else) should do as they say when it's completely opposite of what the OP wants ,or needs to do. Some folks just feel the need to drive their points home regardless.....my way or the highway. They seem to pop-up no matter what is being discussed.
If you like to hand start then hand start if you like to use a starter then use one. Both methods have "safety" issues involved...just be careful

pilotpete2

Normally a gas engine with CDI ignition will not kick back the way a glow ignition engine does, so hand starting CDI ignition gassers is a lot safer than glow.
As far as glow engines, I'm on the same page as you. I always use the starter, especially 4 strokes!! For me, the key to smoothly starting a glow engine with a starter is to never choke or prime the engine, and to never spin it with the starter without the plug lit. Plug lit and throttle cracked works every time for me.
My gas engines with Walbro style carbs I flip (leather glove) with ignition and choke on until it pops, then a couple of flips with choke off and off she goes.
My one gas engine with a carb that is more like a glow fuel carb (EVO 15cc) I treat like a glow engine. Ignition on, no choke or prime. A touch of the the starter and she's running.
Pete

Truckracer

My Feedback: (19)

In this case, some of my strong opinions come from watching others try to do what I express caution about here. It can be quite the comedy or even tragedy watching someone wrestle a huge starter on a big gas engine. There is a point when engines get large enough the process becomes difficult to achieve with success on a repeated basis. Certainly the process is achievable but traditional methods seem so much easier. So I would ask, have you ever seen someone starting a full scale engine with a huge electric starter held up to the prop and spinner?

1QwkSport2.5r

No, because they have integrated electric starters like automobile engines.

I can understand the whole electric starter point on something using a big prop like 20-24" where one wouldn't be able to use a starter and hold the plane without a stand of sorts. But something with a 16-19" prop I don't see the harm in it if the plane can be held safely in place. I guess it comes down to different strokes for different folks I guess. I see a safety issue when you have to wind the starter up before hitting the starter cone/spinner/spinner nut.. Then you can get the wobbly starter hand flipping around syndrome. This I don't recommend. This can be alleviated with using the right size starter for the job. I think this is important for someone wanting to use a starter; a .90 starter isn't designed or strong enough when using it's designated operating voltage to start a 20+cc engine. A buddy with a G2300 SuperTigre and Zenoah G26 couldn't get a 12v .90 to start it, but upping the voltage to an 18v drill battery did the trick however that plays hell on the brushes and windings of the starter. The Zenoah had a magneto ignition and hand flipping (using a thick leather glove) could not get it started no matter how hard we tried. We had to use the electric starter on the Zenoah to get the spark hot enough to fire it off. Hand flipping only got us a pop, not a solid enough fire to kick it over another revolution which would have probably gotten it to start and run.

If back flipping worked as well on spark ignition as it does on glow engines then I'd hand start everything. It's easy that way. Anything that needs to be flipped through compression would be more dangerous in my eyes.

Truckracer

My Feedback: (19)

I don't see a problem using a starter on the smaller gassers and never stated that I did. The subject of this thread was a much larger engine and prop and thats where I see a problem.

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

Agreed, The issue here is was the correct equipment selected for the job at hand? Hard to argue that point. Am I against using starters? No. I have a YS115 and an OS 91 Surpass and use a starter on those. The starter I have is well suited for those engines. Was I a bit stubborn here? Yes, I knew what the OP wanted to do was not going to work and imposed a safety issue. I would hope that if I was doing something that could cause me injury that someone would point it out. I made an effort to leave everything behind when the OP posted that the starter idea did not work. I see others just could not do the same, my offer still stands to assist the OP to get his engine running and in a safe ( as safe as can be ) manner.

1QwkSport2.5r

All duly noted. Thanks fellas.

davevh

Interesting some guys note using electric starters on 4-strokes. The Saitos I had almost exclusively saw chicken sticks. I pretty much learned to start engines with screwdrivers and my fingers. Yeah I had a few backfires which stung, but in many years of flying never had an injury. I have had electric starters for my glow engines, but avoided them whenever possible (I think it was more psychological for fear of tearing into the spinner or prop). Not saying my way is the safest or best, just the way I prefer.

When I was young and learning full scale gliding, I did however HATE flipping the prop on the Citabria tug by hand, always envisioned losing balance and falling into the arc!. If I had had a cement truck handy, I would have rigged that with a cone as my starter lol.

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

Of the two 4 stroke engines I have, the 91 surpass is mounted inverted so its a bit finicky and my YS 115 is used solely for racing. It is run on 30% nitro. We have to start up and be tuned in a 2 minute time window. The starter just seems to be the easiest and safest way to go for those engines. When I was racing with Rossi 2 strokes I would always use the bump start method with those. As for gassers, I have run everything from 38cc to 170cc and have always hand started them. With spark ignition it is very rare that an engine would kick back. As with every R/C airplane one has to do his due dillagence and check to make sure the throttle is moving the correct direction, TX is on the correct model, timing is set correctly and such.

acerc

I have a Valach 170 4 stroke, at first I tried the hand flipping because of the shear size of the prop (34x14) but gave up after about fifty flips. So I grabbed the starter and once I got it fired up and broke in enough to tune I found it starts very easily with one or two flips so now I hand start it. But all my other engines, 20-55cc I prefer the starter. I have a starter large enough to turn them easily and have a couple cones to fit them appropriately. I also have some tire goo that adds some sticky to the cone but have never needed it. And a couple do not have spinners but I made cones to fit the bolt pattern's.

MinnSpin

My Feedback: (40)

Goodness, you could start a tractor with that.

dubs1946

G,day here are some pics of my version of starting a 3W85 without a spinner.
I am happy for all you guys that want to put your hands and fingers in the prop circle to start these engines, i hope you have good insurance.
I obtained a solid round from a aluminium supply shop.drilled the centre hole so it was a force fit over the hard metal splines of the large SDS starter.
As the ally. starter round was forced on the metal splines of the starter. The starter has a grooved
hard metal shaft and it cuts grooves in the ally round.
It does not slip and it is solid.
The outer holes were drilled to fit over the bolts on the engine prop washer.
I use a 5S battery about 18volts and thats plenty of power.
This is a solid connection not like when using a spinner so hang on and make sure you are connected well between the ally starter boss and the engine bolts.
When using a spinner and with a cone on your starter there is a certain amount of slip that acts like a clutch but not this, its full on all at once.
Dave.
PS. i have been using this method for years and it works well.

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

Dave, my point was that what the OP was planning simply wasn't going to work and introduced a safety issue. Your setup was designed for the job at hand. Still I do have the concern that your starter could stress the prop bolts. I have seen prop bolts shear in flight on some of these large engines including mine. However if you have been using this starter for years without issue maybe my concern is unfounded.

captinjohn

Here is something you could try on a big gas engine to start it easy. Mill a flat spot on head & drill & tap for a glow plug. Use a prime bottle & shoot a prime in carb. Turn engine over a couple of times to get prime in cyl. Hook up the glow & back bounce it to start. It should kick off on the glow & continue to run on gas. Remove glow driver. Also you could use a remote glow wire to energize glow pug. Now instead of coming up with many reasons it won,t work...just try it. Capt,n

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

I'll let someone else tackle that one. :-}